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Author Topic: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .  (Read 8165 times)

Gizmo823

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2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« on: August 12, 2014, 08:28:37 AM »
Something I'm noticing already about the girls in the WYC . . there are several average to higher rev rates and some good looking form from the overseas girls, largely without wrist braces, and the ones that are wearing them are just wearing wristers and plain gloves.  I'm sure I'm not the only one that absolutely hates every coach in the country going straight for a mechanical arm to put on a girl, and the vast majority of the professional women in the country wearing them.  They will teach not to muscle the ball while at the same time putting robotic arms on them that all but make them muscle it.  Women could get higher rev rates with less effort if they took the damn things off.  I understand women have weaker wrists and some need support, but the strength of your wrist shouldn't matter much if you're throwing the ball the right way.  Look at guys like Mike Fagan, Wes Malott and even Tommy Jones.  You think those guys are manhandling it?  Tommy gets an absolute handful at the bottom, but that ball just floats in his backswing and the snap at the bottom is like a whip.  It's motion, not muscle.  It just seems to me like the girls in this country are taught like they're all small and weak.  "Well you're a girl so you're just going to have to do this."  Ah, there's a good rant, haven't had one of those in a while.  Carry on. 
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trash heap

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2014, 01:08:27 PM »
You need a strong wrist to do the modern release.  The issue I see for most is keeping the wrist firm (not breaking) through the entire arm swing. Most don't have the wrist strength to bring it back once they break the wrist.
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Gizmo823

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2014, 03:01:47 PM »
Not necessarily, strong but not muscled . . there are some girls from Sweden and England that are ripping on it and they aren't wearing any kind of support.  Pretty slender girls at that . .  Once you break the wrist, you really shouldn't need much strength to bring it back, gravity takes care of that.  Like Mike Fagan, his wrist is completely broken at the top of the swing, but once gravity has the ball on the downswing, you just have to get your wrist back into the proper position to uncoil at the release.  Shouldn't really take much strength at all. 
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milorafferty

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2014, 03:11:36 PM »
And why do you care?
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xrayjay

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2014, 04:50:52 PM »
Kelly Kulick:

I DO believe in wristbands. They are useful in many ways. They allow the hand and wrist to hold a position throughout the entire swing and during the release. You aren’t less of a bowler if you use a wrist aid.

I have advised bowlers with weak wrist strength to try them. Individuals with arthritis also find them beneficial. I have also referred young ladies to use them as well as bowlers trying to build muscle memory for the release. They can be an excellent training tool. Not everyone has strong grip pressure to allow flexibility at the release.

My first suggestion is to try a Robby’s or Robby’s Response. As an instructor, I always take the bar in the middle of the palm out. I want the back of the wrist to be supported. A Mongoose is similar in design and provides the same outcome. If that is not enough, try upgrading to a Robby’s Revs or VISE V1, V2, or V3. These types of wrist positioners will give you the release and ball roll you may be searching for. In the end, it is personal preference when choosing. If you score better and develop consistency, why wouldn’t you use it?

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Gizmo823

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2014, 07:06:01 AM »
I see way too much cookie cutter coaching, especially in college.  Unless the girls are already really talented and come in knowing what they're doing, it's like the coaches just go, "ok, you're a girl, so you have to do this."  Can't stand it.  I also don't like the idea that other younger girls are seeing this and saying, "wow, I guess I'm just gonna have to wear one of those to keep up."  I watched a local girl here get basically forced to wear one even though she said it was uncomfortable and didn't like it.  There was nothing wrong with the way she threw the ball and she wasn't having any kind of discomfort. 

As for what Kelly said, I believe in wrist supports too . . but wrist supports, not robotic arms for no reason.  Kelly also has some pretty old school form.  Straight arm, straight wrist throughout her entire swing.  You've gotta have wrist strength to throw it like that.  I'll bounce one back at you.  Leanne (Barrette) Hulsenberg.  You think that takes much if any wrist strength at all?  She has an extremely weak wrist position throughout her entire backswing, but with a little elbow action she gets behind it and then just uncoils like a whip and gets right through it.  There's no muscling there, just physics.  I'm a super big fan of her game, so I might be biased . . but I'm also not a big fan of bandaids.  There's a way to do things without really taxing your body so much.  I went through a lot of issues myself with "dead arm" after I dislocated my shoulder, it was a pretty bad dislocation that messed some stuff up (didn't require surgery though) and I lost a lot of strength in my entire arm.  Before it happened, I used a wrister myself.  I'd get tendonitis in my elbow or have other issues with my whole arm.  Now I have more revs and more speed with virtually zero wear and tear on my arm. 

I'm not saying that's the way everyone needs to do it or the way everyone should do it . . because some people honestly need those supports.  But sometimes it's like giving a crutch to a person who is perfectly capable of walking just fine.  Say they take that crutch and start using it like they do have a problem.  Pretty soon it's something you rely on and depend on rather than trying to build strength or just use the laws of physics to your advantage.  I went through being weak myself and I'm already pretty slender to begin with.  Too many coaches just get a one track mind and push the easy button for way too much stuff instead of learning their student and finding out what tools they have to work with. 

And why do you care?
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

itsallaboutme

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2014, 07:50:21 AM »
Most of it is because kids go up in ball weight too quick and are unable to develop solid fundamentals because it is all they can do hold and swing the ball.  From my experience in the pro shop it is usually the parents fault as they either think their kid is different than the rest of the kids and can handle something they can't or they think Johnny or Sally can grow into it instead of having to buy another ball in a year.

ccrider

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2014, 08:35:08 AM »
My 15 year old was throwing 15 pound balls 18 to 19 quibica.  We started him off with 13 and went to 14. His wrist are not strong enough to keep from breaking on his backswing. His backswing is  naturally vertical and he does not feel comfortable trying to keep it lower.

He has gone to using a Robby's Rev. It helps him to keep his wrist in the right position. Ultimately, I think that he should lose the wrist brace, but for a quick fix, the brace helps. I don't think his wrist will get stronger as long as he uses the brace. The mechanics of the release is also different using a brace.

Gizmo823

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2014, 09:16:01 AM »
Well but is breaking his wrist in the backswing really such a bad thing?  Look at Mike Fagan, that guy doesn't just break it, he bends it completely back.  It's easier on your arm, you allow physics and gravity to do all the work.  Any time your armswing isn't free, if any part of it is muscled or forced, you're asking for trouble.  Sometimes you also have to do what your body naturally allows you to do.  If you're never going to be a big speed or big rev bowler, you've gotta find a way to work to your strengths.  You can't just ignore weaknesses obviously, but there's no point in teaching a kid that's 5'5" to be a center playing basketball . . that's never gonna happen.  You have to address the relevant weaknesses. 

My 15 year old was throwing 15 pound balls 18 to 19 quibica.  We started him off with 13 and went to 14. His wrist are not strong enough to keep from breaking on his backswing. His backswing is  naturally vertical and he does not feel comfortable trying to keep it lower.

He has gone to using a Robby's Rev. It helps him to keep his wrist in the right position. Ultimately, I think that he should lose the wrist brace, but for a quick fix, the brace helps. I don't think his wrist will get stronger as long as he uses the brace. The mechanics of the release is also different using a brace.
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

Gizmo823

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2014, 09:19:01 AM »
I've also never been able to "cup" a 15 pound ball and I really hurt my arm and wrist sometimes trying to do it, besides developing some really odd form to cheat around it.  I've still got some really odd form, but it's effective, and nearly effortless.  My entire body gets tired a long time before my arm does.  Never hurts, never is sore the next day. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

milorafferty

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2014, 09:21:10 AM »
This is nothing more than the same tired ol' argument against two-hand bowlers. If it's something different than what YOU have found to work for YOU, then it must be wrong.
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itsallaboutme

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2014, 09:30:24 AM »
You can't compare the way the top professionals break their wrists with kids.  The difference being the professionals are strong enough to use that type of wrist position and still get their hand behind and underneath the ball and get the ball tucked in to have leverage.  Kids let their wrist break down and their hand is on the top outside of the ball with no leverage and it spins like a top.

northface28

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2014, 10:08:13 AM »
This is nothing more than the same tired ol' argument against two-hand bowlers. If it's something different than what YOU have found to work for YOU, then it must be wrong.

Get real, two handed bowling is a learned/acquired skill, any bloke can throw a Robo-arm on. Its a crutch, period.
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milorafferty

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2014, 10:11:22 AM »
This is nothing more than the same tired ol' argument against two-hand bowlers. If it's something different than what YOU have found to work for YOU, then it must be wrong.

Get real, two handed bowling is a learned/acquired skill, any bloke can throw a Robo-arm on. Its a crutch, period.

Grow up.
"If guns kill people, do pencils misspell words?"

"If you don't stand for our flag, then don't expect me to give a damn about your feelings."

northface28

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Re: 2014 World Youth Champs, Girls . .
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2014, 10:12:35 AM »
This is nothing more than the same tired ol' argument against two-hand bowlers. If it's something different than what YOU have found to work for YOU, then it must be wrong.

Get real, two handed bowling is a learned/acquired skill, any bloke can throw a Robo-arm on. Its a crutch, period.

Grow up.

You must wear a Robo-arm, clown.
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