Author Topic: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish? (Read 10216 times)

txbowler · « **on:** January 08, 2010, 02:13:12 AM »

Why is it that most of the posts I read "seem" to come across as a bowler who only cares about himself/herself or their class of bowler?

Bowlers want tougher conditions. Don''t care that it could drive away a majority of the non-200 average bowlers.

Bowlers want to do away with HDCP (or reduce it). Don''t care that it would drive away a majority of the non-200 average bowlers.

Why does the 10% of bowlers who average above 200 feel they deserve to rule bowling while the 90% who don''t actually bring in 8 times more money to the centers and USBC that make the rules?

Are we all that arrogant?

Does it really bruise your ego that much when Joe "beer drinking", Non-practicing" Nobody beats you with his HDCP and easy lanes conditions in your weekly league, bracket or tournament?

Are we all a bunch of babies?

Edited on 1/8/2010 11:14 AM

txbowler · « **Reply #16 on:** January 08, 2010, 02:32:10 PM »

Entering up front I agree with you 100%.

If I enter a scratch tournament, I know anyone can enter.

I have seen tournaments for golf that are based on your handicap. They do not expect your local weekend hack to compete against Tiger. They go into different divisions.

But the same applies to HDCP tournaments. If you enter, you cannot whine that you got beat by HDCP. You chose to enter. No one held a gun to you head and made you bowl.

Scratch bowlers are not elite gods who deserve to beat up on the HDCP bowlers every time we shoe up.

livespive · « **Reply #17 on:** January 08, 2010, 02:35:36 PM »

Ren, Crusty.....

DO I have to put you two in time out? lol
--------------------
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EagleHunter · « **Reply #18 on:** January 08, 2010, 02:37:14 PM »

quote:
Why is it that most of the posts I read "seem" to come across as a bowler who only cares about himself/herself or their class of bowler?
Bowlers want tougher conditions. Don''t care that it could drive away a majority of the non-200 average bowlers.

Bowlers want to do away with HDCP (or reduce it). Don''t care that it would drive away a majority of the non-200 average bowlers.

Why does the 10% of bowlers who average above 200 feel they deserve to rule bowling while the 90% who don''t actually bring in 8 times more money to the centers and USBC that make the rules?

Are we all that arrogant?

Does it really bruise your ego that much when Joe "beer drinking", Non-practicing" Nobody beats you with his HDCP and easy lanes conditions in your weekly league, bracket or tournament?

Are we all a bunch of babies?

Alright...I really have had ENOUGH of this ridiculous, lame argument. "Make them tough and everyone will leave." REALLY? How about ANYONE try to supply some evidence of it?

Has anyone noticed how many people are leaving now, DESPITE the fact that conditions are arguably easier now than they have ever been? If the easy condition is what keeps "everyone" bowling, then why are so many STILL leaving?

Many of those who push for tougher conditions are more concerned about the well-being of the SPORT. The sport, as it is conducted now, is in a sad state of affairs...if there really even is a sport anymore. Those that care about the sport don't care about how anyone's scores are affected, including their own. They want to see integrity restored so that there will be a sport for the future generations. The way things are going now, there will be no sport...only recreation and open bowling.

Based on my observations, the "average" bowler has not changed much. Some bowlers have taken advantage of the easier conditions and have scored higher...solely as a result of the condition they normally bowl on take them out of their "house" and see them struggle...that is the typical house bowler (THB). The THB can tell when "things aren't right" and may complain when their scores go down.

The average bowler, on the other hand, has not seen much of a change in average, regardless of the conditions they bowl on. They can go from house to house and average about the same. More importantly, they usually have no idea about lane conditions, thus they aren't aware of when "things aren't right."

I have bowled in a number of mixed leagues, in various houses, that were full of "average" bowlers. On more than a couple of occasions the "typical" lane condition was quite different (due to tournaments that occurred prior to the league session). The vast majority of the people in the leagues, 1) did not notice the conditions were any different, and 2) while they scored lower than average, it was only about 10 pins...so it was nothing out of the ordinary.

The truth is this is not about arrogance, it is about ignorance.

The TRUE average bowler is about 170 (for men), which (I believe) is about what it was 15-20 years ago. Conditions 15-20 years ago, while not necessarily tough, were considerably tougher than they are now. So consider this...

20 yrs ago - tougher conditions, less technology = average bowler 170
Now - easier conditions, more technology = average bowler 170

I'm sorry, but changing conditions (harder or easier) would NOT lead to a large decrease in bowlers. Why? The answer is simple. The vast majority of bowlers, especially the average bowlers, are ignorant about lane conditions. They have no idea about what they are bowling on, let alone how to adjust to what they may be seeing.

The ONLY people that are concerned about a change to tougher conditions are those that claim to be great, or are told they are, yet know deep down they could not compete away from their condition (FIGJAM).

Bottom line, conditions have gotten easier over the last 15-20 years and the number of certified bowlers has DECREASED. Is it related? Maybe, maybe not. But to claim making them tougher will lead to a decrease in bowlers is patently false. There is ZERO evidence to support such a claim.

Uncle Crusty · « **Reply #19 on:** January 08, 2010, 02:38:14 PM »

quote:
Ren, Crusty.....

DO I have to put you two in time out? lol

Haha, I'll be good from now on.
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann

livespive · « **Reply #20 on:** January 08, 2010, 02:38:27 PM »

As said in an earlier post as long as there is sandbagging there will be problems......

Even if you break a scratch tourney into divisions you can sandbag there to get into a lower division than you are supposed to be in.
--------------------
Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member, and originator of The Livespive Leverage 3:15Â° drill

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txbowler · « **Reply #21 on:** January 08, 2010, 02:40:43 PM »

EagleHunter - Nice Post with Valid Arguments on all points.

txbowler · « **Reply #22 on:** January 08, 2010, 02:42:23 PM »

Livespive - How do you tell the difference between sandbagging and a bowler who bowls in a small town with an 8 lane house in rural america?

txbowler · « **Reply #23 on:** January 08, 2010, 02:51:20 PM »

As a followup to the sandbagging topic -

There is a house in a major town in LA where the owner dislikes (I'll be nice) lefthanders. Now, if a lefthander bowls league there and only there, he will average well below what he would at most other THS houses even though he is trying his best. He is under no obligation to bowl anywhere to have a true book average. And he is under no obligation to report that the owner screws with the left side because if he's new to the area, he honestly may not know it. He just picked the house closest to his new apartment.

This is why you can never solve sandbagging.

Uncle Crusty · « **Reply #24 on:** January 08, 2010, 02:56:13 PM »

quote:
Alright...I really have had ENOUGH of this ridiculous, lame argument. "Make them tough and everyone will leave." REALLY? How about ANYONE try to supply some evidence of it?

Ok, sure. It's a small sample, but I'm sure it's representative of what the case would be nationwide.

I grew up in Maine. Two years ago, I bowled in the premier men's league in the state during my first year out of juniors. It is housed in a 24 lane center, and every single year, teams were beating on the door to get in. There were usually 5-10 teams shut out every season.

The year I bowled it, scores were high. Two guys averaged over 230, another 10 or so were over 220. The league consisted of the best of the best in the state, but make no mistake, the lanes were easy.

Fast forward to last year. Before the season started, the league was allowed to vote for the pattern they would bowl on for the year. The choices were to keep it the same as the previous year, put out a medium-scoring pattern, or put out a legitimate sport shot. The league voted for the medium-scoring pattern by a fairly decent margin, and a couple teams walked out on the spot. Additionally, teams on the waiting list decided not to bowl because of the shot change. They barely scraped together a full 24 teams.

This season, only 22 teams committed to bowl the league, based solely on the lower scoring pace from the previous year (and high average last year was still decent, at 220). The house also decided to put out a more difficult shot. Averages, in general, are in the toilet this year. From what I've been told, 6 teams have already decided not to come back next season, and the season is only half over. If I had to guess, I'd say next season has 12 teams tops.

I feel it's important to note that most teams voted to make the shot more difficult and still ended up or will end up quitting in the long run. Casual league bowlers just don't want to show up to league and get their brains beat in every week. This is league bowling, not the PBA Tour. Everyone shouldn't have to see their average drop 40 pins so the select few who want to be challenged can be challenged.
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann

livespive · « **Reply #25 on:** January 08, 2010, 03:04:10 PM »

quote:
Livespive - How do you tell the difference between sandbagging and a bowler who bowls in a small town with an 8 lane house in rural america?

That my friend is the $1,000,000 question lol.

I have always liked the idea of HDCP being based on 300 so that everyone gets it, and you cap the score at 300 meaning you cannot score over 300. if you tie then there is a rolloff. The sandbagger still has a chance, but not as much.
--------------------
Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member, and originator of The Livespive Leverage 3:15Â° drill

http://www.visionarybowling.com
http://www.maysbowlingandbilliards.com
Ball Reviews FAQ
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Archived Bowlingballreview.com site:
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RIP THONGPRINCESS AND SAWBONES

livespive · « **Reply #26 on:** January 08, 2010, 03:09:53 PM »

That is the problem though....

It's all about money.

The house will not run a small league for the few that want a tough shot.
So like txbowler said, you end up with those like me that would have to drive
to a different city if they wanted a tough shot.

quote:
quote:
Alright...I really have had ENOUGH of this ridiculous, lame argument. "Make them tough and everyone will leave." REALLY? How about ANYONE try to supply some evidence of it?

Ok, sure. It's a small sample, but I'm sure it's representative of what the case would be nationwide.

I grew up in Maine. Two years ago, I bowled in the premier men's league in the state during my first year out of juniors. It is housed in a 24 lane center, and every single year, teams were beating on the door to get in. There were usually 5-10 teams shut out every season.

The year I bowled it, scores were high. Two guys averaged over 230, another 10 or so were over 220. The league consisted of the best of the best in the state, but make no mistake, the lanes were easy.

Fast forward to last year. Before the season started, the league was allowed to vote for the pattern they would bowl on for the year. The choices were to keep it the same as the previous year, put out a medium-scoring pattern, or put out a legitimate sport shot. The league voted for the medium-scoring pattern by a fairly decent margin, and a couple teams walked out on the spot. Additionally, teams on the waiting list decided not to bowl because of the shot change. They barely scraped together a full 24 teams.

This season, only 22 teams committed to bowl the league, based solely on the lower scoring pace from the previous year (and high average last year was still decent, at 220). The house also decided to put out a more difficult shot. Averages, in general, are in the toilet this year. From what I've been told, 6 teams have already decided not to come back next season, and the season is only half over. If I had to guess, I'd say next season has 12 teams tops.

I feel it's important to note that most teams voted to make the shot more difficult and still ended up or will end up quitting in the long run. Casual league bowlers just don't want to show up to league and get their brains beat in every week. This is league bowling, not the PBA Tour. Everyone shouldn't have to see their average drop 40 pins so the select few who want to be challenged can be challenged.
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann

--------------------
Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member, and originator of The Livespive Leverage 3:15Â° drill

http://www.visionarybowling.com
http://www.maysbowlingandbilliards.com
Ball Reviews FAQ
BR.com search hack: http://www.bowling-info.com/Search.html

Archived Bowlingballreview.com site:
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://WWW.BOWLINGBALLREVIEWS.COM

RIP THONGPRINCESS AND SAWBONES

Uncle Crusty · « **Reply #27 on:** January 08, 2010, 03:18:25 PM »

quote:
That is the problem though....

It's all about money.

The house will not run a small league for the few that want a tough shot.
So like txbowler said, you end up with those like me that would have to drive
to a different city if they wanted a tough shot.

That point is well-taken. For every house that will run a sport league with a small turnout, there are others that won't. However, there are still plenty of things to bowl if you want to be challenged. Local or regional house tournaments, sport tournaments, the Regional Tour, a TQR if you're good enough, and so on, all of which offer competition against better bowlers.

Regardless of the scoring pace of league bowling, league is still just league. If you measure yourself against nothing but other THS bowlers, you're clearly not challenging yourself in the first place (by bowling tournaments or action matches or something), so why should USBC bring the challenge to you when 90% of other league bowlers don't want it? Location is a big factor, but there are definitely other ways to be challenged in the sport besides adding an out-of-bounds to your weekly house league.
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann

EagleHunter · « **Reply #28 on:** January 08, 2010, 03:40:53 PM »

Uncle Crusty,
I understand what you are saying...I would bet that those that left are the ones I talked about earlier, the FIGJAMs who come down to reality.

The question is...did all of those that left the league QUIT bowling altogether? Or did they merely go to another house where the condition is easier?

The issue of tougher scoring is not just "do it here, but leave it easier everywhere else." By nature, most of us will go to where it is the easiest. The question is, if tougher scoring happened EVERYWHERE...would people REALLY quit or would they adapt (as they have to the easier conditions)?

If they have NOWHERE to go, what do they do? QUIT or ADAPT?

mainzer · « **Reply #29 on:** January 08, 2010, 03:44:15 PM »

Or you could look at it like this.

Maybe someone should start caring about the better bowlers, Why is -200 average more or less important than the +200 ave bowlers? Why cant +200 average bowlers have tougher lane conditions/Less handicap without some one whining about it?

Why cant bowlers have a tougher condition? If you havent noticed 300 is kinda meaningless these days. For Gods sake a 89 year old shot 300 this week here in WI.

I dont care if Beer drinking guy beats me with is Handicap, I do care when he is not man enough to back his mouth in neutral house for $$.

Just something from the opposite end of the spectrum.

--------------------
"His Loyalty couldnt be bought at any price
but it could be rented remarkably cheaply"
-Inquisitor Allendyne-

Founding Father of the BR Inquisition

MainzerPower

txbowler · « **Reply #30 on:** January 08, 2010, 03:47:07 PM »

Probably because we are 10% of the bowling populace and they are 90%. Simple economics. They have provide sport leagues/tournaments in some areas so that is an accomplishment.

Author Topic: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish? (Read 10216 times)

txbowler

Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

txbowler

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

livespive

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

EagleHunter

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

Uncle Crusty

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livespive

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

txbowler

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

txbowler

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

txbowler

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

Uncle Crusty

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

livespive

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

livespive

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

Uncle Crusty

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EagleHunter

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mainzer

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txbowler

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