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Author Topic: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls  (Read 8134 times)

BackToBasics

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Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« on: December 20, 2010, 01:49:20 AM »
The Time to Stop thread has me thinking as well as my observations over the past several years regarding surface and high performance balls.  Most should know that there have been no real innovations in covers or cores in several years.   What they are now doing is basically upping the underlying surface to increase surface friction.  Ever notice how 4000 grit balls now seem so dull compared to a few years ago.  That's because the manufacturers are sanding balls at 360 or 500 then to 2000. The cover stock from last year now has a more gritty base so of course it will hook more.  Brunswick did this years ago when their factory surface was 220 with Rough Buff or 400 with Factory High Gloss.  That created much earlier reads than other companies 1500 grit polish.  If you took another companies ball and hit it with 400 then polish you lost a tremendous amount of push.  

Thus, do we really need high performance balls, especially since there is really no new technology (last year's new tech is this year's low end)?  With so many mid-range balls with strong covers and excellent cores, why do we need to spend $160 for a Taboo when a surface tweak and layout can get you similar performance for $80 out of a Midnight Vibe?  If you want to see how much performance you can get out of a Freeze, Vibe, Tropical Heat, Anaconda, etc, drill up one and then hit it to the same factory surface as one of the HP balls and see if that performance difference is worth the price.  I think people will be surprised at how much a Vibe can hook with 360/500/1000.



 

HamPster

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 06:42:00 AM »
High performance really pertains to the demand for it. The average league bowler really doesnt need it, just like most regular cars only need regular gas. I use high performance balls for the increased amount of drilling options, fine tuning ability, increased consistency and control, and the ability to make it through a complete set easier.
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That's just like, your opinion, man.

trash heap

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 07:04:35 AM »
quote:
I use high performance balls for the increased amount of drilling options, fine tuning ability, increased consistency and control, and the ability to make it through a complete set easier.


Sometimes that High price tag (High performance) doesn't equate to your statement here. There have been plenty of Mid Performance lines over the years that have out performed their higher priced brother.

I am sure a list could be generated very quickly here of high end equipment that was advertised to be the best(control, hook, versatility)...only ending up being a DUD!

Talkin' Trash!

BackToBasics

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 07:25:39 AM »
quote:
High performance really pertains to the demand for it. The average league bowler really doesnt need it, just like most regular cars only need regular gas. I use high performance balls for the increased amount of drilling options, fine tuning ability, increased consistency and control, and the ability to make it through a complete set easier.
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That's just like, your opinion, man.


I am sorry, but HP doesn't equate to consistency and control or ability to stay with it longer.  Oftentimes it's the opposite because of the aggressiveness of the cover, it breaks down the shot way too quickly and forces zone moves too early.

Control and consistency is a function of release, pin placement and surface.  Furthermore, strong asymmetricals can lead to inconsistency because of small variations in releases. It is hard to beat a solid symmetrical for this reason.

jbruno6

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 07:51:57 AM »
A strong symmetrical is all you need on a THS.  I can't see the need for the asymmetrical invasion, the mission, the taboo, etc on these conditions.   I can understand the lower rev player thinking that these are going to make them "hook it", but what they get is too much ball for too little lane (IMO)   Hammer has put out great THS balls, the Vibes (especially blue), the Doom, the Acid, etc.   If the lower rev player needs an oil ball, I would get an Acid or a Jacked, bring it down to 1000 grit, and it will perform.
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batbowler

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2010, 08:11:38 AM »
You can make a plastic ball look good on a THS! Try these same low-end balls with the HP balls on a sport or kegel challenge pattern and that's when you'll see the bigger difference! You really don't need the biggest hooking ball on a THS! Just my $.02, Bruce
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HamPster

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2010, 09:42:09 AM »
I suppose ive always found high performance equipment more consistent and less sensitive to track burn or carrydown, i always get more subtle warnings to adjust from my high performance stuff.  It also could be the type of high performance pieces and layouts i choose.
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That's just like, your opinion, man.

jls

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2010, 09:47:34 AM »
DO YOU PLAY GOLF...

Do you feel that a $10 per dz. ball is as good as a $45 per dz. ball...

Do you feel that a $49 driver is as good as a $299 driver...

I can't REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I SAW SOMEOME WINNING BOO KOO BUCKS IN POTS WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL BALL...not even on the desert....

So IMO....To answer your question


NO, you get what you pay for...


now

MERRY CHRISTMAS
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jls

Steven

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2010, 10:10:54 AM »
quote:
I can't REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I SAW SOMEOME WINNING BOO KOO BUCKS IN POTS WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL BALL...not even on the desert....

So IMO....To answer your question


NO, you get what you pay for...

 


jls: You have a unique way of cutting to the chase nailing the correct answer.....

Why this subject keeps coming up is perplexing.


BackToBasics

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2010, 10:13:40 AM »
quote:
DO YOU PLAY GOLF...

Do you feel that a $10 per dz. ball is as good as a $45 per dz. ball...

Do you feel that a $49 driver is as good as a $299 driver...

I can't REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I SAW SOMEOME WINNING BOO KOO BUCKS IN POTS WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL BALL...not even on the desert....

So IMO....To answer your question


NO, you get what you pay for...


now

MERRY CHRISTMAS
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jls


As a matter of fact I do and I am knowledgeable about golf equipment.  Your examples are flawed. COR has been maxed out for several years so drivers that are being closed out for $99 or even less from a few years ago are AS LONG as the new Titleist 910 model that's retailing for $399.  My Bridgestone J33 is going on 4 years old and there is nothing than can touch it in pure distance.  There are drivers that are more forgiving on off center hits but that hasn't equaled any performance increase for me. The Ping G10 driver is being sold now for $179 in most places and I guarantee the new $300 G15 is not better (assuming the G10 already matched you).  That's why the current gimmick in golf is adjustability because they can't claim distance increase anymore.  The shaft lengths can't get too much longer than 46" and be usable.  

Titleist ProV1 balls are a perfect example of balls that are way overpriced.  There are plenty of balls that are priced cheaper that equal or perform better.  Srixon ZStar is one of them and you can readily find them on sale for $25-$30 a dozen.  Often you can buy last year's model significantly cheaper and not suffer any performance decrease.

$60 shafts that perform the same as $300 shafts because the zone profiles match.  Plenty of examples in golf so that was the wrong game to choose as a comparison LOL.

And I reiterate, I never said entry level ball.  A Vibe and Anaconda are not entry level balls.  However, I frequently see pots and tournaments won weekly with Tropical Heat Hybrids, Vibes, Nomads, 2Fasts etc.  Heck, I've won my fair share of them as well.

Robadat

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2010, 10:27:15 AM »
quote:
I can't REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I SAW SOMEOME WINNING BOO KOO BUCKS IN POTS WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL BALL...not even on the desert....

 
You should have been at my league last night.

First and third game pots were won by a guy throwing a Power Groove in the first, and a Storm Natural in the third.

I won the second game pot using my MAXIM.  Threw a 243 game.

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jls

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2010, 11:23:09 AM »
quote:
quote:
I can''t REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I SAW SOMEOME WINNING BOO KOO BUCKS IN POTS WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL BALL...not even on the desert....

 
You should have been at my league last night.

First and third game pots were won by a guy throwing a Power Groove in the first, and a Storm Natural in the third.

I won the second game pot using my MAXIM.  Threw a 243 game.

--------------------
Sarcasm Disclaimer:

"This post may contain sarcasm, things that look like sarcasm, and things that might be mistaken as sarcasm. My sarcasm is self-made at my environmentally friendly laboratory and no human or animal was harmed to create the sarcasm found within this post."

Unless, you were harmed.  In the extremely rare case were that to happen, Tough Nouggies!!!
Disclaimer provided by Jorge, Thanks.





Rob,  I said "not even on the desert"  the balls you described are dry alley wonders...Where anything hooks...

On the flood they are wash out queens...




Backtobasic''s... I said a $49 driver,  did not mean a $119-or $99 closeout...

There are boo koo models on the market that sell in the $49-$79 range... Brand new...The models you mentioned with your "FLAWED" comment were all top high end balls that HAVE NOW BEEN REDUCED...

That is not the same thing as a MODEL that sells for $49-$79 BRAND NEW...



Now as for the golf balls... What do you consider performance... a ball that you can hit far... Well I don''t... I consider a ball that can bore thru the wind and land soft on the greens...

A ball with a true roll off the putter...Not one that jumps off a putter face...

Now you would be right if you said the cost of a Titleist is way too high compared to other balls...

But a $45 Titleist is superior in performance to a $14 bonus pack special...

IMO, they should be selling for about $34...


now


MERRY CHRISTMAS
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jls

Edited on 12/21/2010 1:23 PM

Robadat

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2010, 11:40:36 AM »
quote:
Rob, I said "not on the desert" the balls you described are dry alley wonders...Where anything hooks...

 
No, you said "not even on the desert" which would include desert like conditions.

And the lanes were not a "desert".  By no means a flood, they had a decent amount of oil in the fronts on old wood, but the backends were absolutely "flying".
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Sarcasm Disclaimer:

"This post may contain sarcasm, things that look like sarcasm, and things that might be mistaken as sarcasm. My sarcasm is self-made at my environmentally friendly laboratory and no human or animal was harmed to create the sarcasm found within this post."

Unless, you were harmed.  In the extremely rare case were that to happen, Tough Nouggies!!!
Disclaimer provided by Jorge, Thanks.
Sarcasm Disclaimer:
"This post may contain sarcasm, things that look like sarcasm, and things that might be mistaken as sarcasm. My sarcasm is self-made at my environmentally friendly laboratory, no human or animal was harmed to create the sarcasm contained within."

jls

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2010, 12:00:52 PM »
quote:
quote:
I can't REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I SAW SOMEOME WINNING BOO KOO BUCKS IN POTS WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL BALL...not even on the desert....

 
You should have been at my league last night.

First and third game pots were won by a guy throwing a Power Groove in the first, and a Storm Natural in the third.

I won the second game pot using my MAXIM.  Threw a 243 game.

--------------------
Sarcasm Disclaimer:

"This post may contain sarcasm, things that look like sarcasm, and things that might be mistaken as sarcasm. My sarcasm is self-made at my environmentally friendly laboratory and no human or animal was harmed to create the sarcasm found within this post."

Unless, you were harmed.  In the extremely rare case were that to happen, Tough Nouggies!!!
Disclaimer provided by Jorge, Thanks.






Rob, when it comes to "oil", if you ask 10 different people, you will get 100 different answers...

NOW sir, IMO,   If someone is using an entry level low flare ball or a plastic ball, to me they are not on "oil"   They are on a light pattern at best...

Now sure there are cases where someone can score using a plastic ball, even in oil... I still remember the night some "dude" using a house ball shot 279 against us, in the big boys league...  But this is not the norm, especially on oil or tight back ends...

Anything is possible...

Why even your Giants are able to blow a 21 point lead with 7 minutes to go...

Did I menetion, they suck in the 2nd half of the season, year after year...

And BTW,  Chicago is a "No Fly Zone", therefore your little QB from the Jets will be going down this week....

bet the house on the Bears...


trust me
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jls

kidlost2000

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2010, 07:26:47 PM »
quote:
I can''t REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I SAW SOMEOME WINNING BOO KOO BUCKS IN POTS WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL BALL...not even on the desert....



May depend on what you mean by entry level. Most would agree you don''t need an arsenal of HP equipment to compete. Most lower level bowling balls have great cores and aggressive covers to deal with the majority of lane conditions. I have yet to talk with anyone in some time that has said, WOW those lanes were flooded. Tournament, house shot, ect.

Take for example the 505 series. You don''t think you can compete with anyone, in almost any condition with those three bowling balls? Maybe just two. 505A and T. Plenty of core and cover for any good bowler to put up numbers.

Same for many other companies and there less then HP equipment.

I''ve avoided the HP stuff and increased my scores because I''m not fighting to make the ball work. Or only getting a game and a half in before moving several boards or making ball changes to stay in the same general area.

For the vast majority of bowlers the HP stuff is very rarely needed. It also isn''t needed to be competitive.


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Edited on 12/21/2010 9:29 PM
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

Doug Sterner

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2010, 08:32:39 PM »
I have been saying this exact same thing for quite some time now. There is a very small contingent of THS bowlers that actually NEED the high end balls. The rev challenged or speed dominant bowler can definitely use the extra help a high end ball provides.

The ball companies have made their mid-priced pieces so good that the high end is just a waste of cash for most bowlers. Want examples?

The Hammer Jacked will handle as much oil as most high end balls on the market.

The Storm Fast has every bit as much backend as Storms Virtual Energy or Reign.

The Total Bedlam hooked as much as the Pure Physics...hence the reason it was discontinued.

The Storm Furious was about as versatile of a ball as has been made in recent history. Any guesses why they changed the core and called it the 2 Fast?

Mid-priced balls pack a huge punch now....

Diamondback, Brawl, 2Furious, Reign of Fire, Burst, Nomad solid, Burn, 2Fast, Reign, Nomad Pearl, OutBurst.....all very solid performers without spending $190.

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