Author Topic: Ball speed debate. fast with light ball,slow with heavy? (Read 18891 times)

looseleftie · « **on:** January 12, 2009, 09:39:24 AM »

Can someone please help with this question, as it was discussed amongst my fellow bowlers the other night...

In terms of creating the best pin action/carry is it better to throw hard with light ball, or medium pace with medium weight ball, or slower but with a heavier weighted ball. Assuming that all deliveries had a similar angle of entry into the pocket...

An example might be

throw at 13 mph with 15lb ball (looking at around 3.30 sec or so.very slow speed)
or
throw at 15 mph with 14 lb ball
or
throw at 17 mph with 12 lb ball

Love your thoughts on this, as we have quite a debate going amongst by friends, who all have varying styles of bowling and throw at different speeds, and all of us have contrasting views on the matter.

At what point do you sacrifice your balance/leverage for additional speed and carry?

Myself I'm kind of stuck around 170's, looking for any suggestions.

If there are any math heads or physicists, you may be able to explain with scientific facts!! just a thought.
Take care
LL

Locke · « **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2009, 06:13:20 PM »

I have found that pin action is in fact caused by a combination of two things, energy transfer from the ball to the pins and energy transfer from the RPMs to the pins. In this scenario you should be looking for a balance between a ball getting good contact with pins so the RPMs have time to transfer to the pins but not sacrificing the other side with the energy from the ball. This is why you will see some shots seemingly crush the pocket at high speeds but give very little pin action, the RPMs simply did not have time to transfer. I personally use 16 and look for about 15 MPH at the pins with decent RPM. I once had a private lesson with Richard Shockley, the head of coaching for Brunswick, and he told me that he believes the perfect numbers are 15 MPH at the pins and 250 RPMs. He said anymore speed gets the ball through the pins to quick and any more RPMs makes the ball out of control. I personally have a span of 6 inches so I have a very difficult time getting my RPMs that low.
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AngloBowler · « **Reply #2 on:** January 13, 2009, 03:46:48 AM »

Assuming that you can generate the same number of revs and entry angle with the balls, I'd go medium medium. With modern equipment there's a minimal drop in carry at 14.
the quoted speeds are averaged over the lane I presume?
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dizzyfugu · « **Reply #3 on:** January 13, 2009, 04:27:12 AM »

Too fast is not good (pins tend to splatter all around, not mix well, sacrificing carry), as well as too slow (lacks punch to cause chain reactions, esp. for corner pins). Besides, you need a healthy ratio of revs and speed - the basic aim is to have the ball just start rolling on its PSA the moment before it enters the pins, that's the moment where it has most momentum. Again, too much or too little revs, is not effective.

AFAIK, a good ratio between speed in MPH and hand revs (which can be estimated by RPM/20) is 1:1, and this would come close to the 15 mph/300 RMP numbers mentioned before.

Concerning weight, a light ball can have you muscle the swing, which can create problems, but with modern material and as long as the ball has a dynamic core, the carry issue thorugh weight should IMHO not be that much influential. Just use the highest ball weight you can personally handle comfortably.
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looseleftie · « **Reply #4 on:** January 13, 2009, 07:32:53 AM »

Thanks for the replies firstly.. All over one lane Anglo..

First thing, I noticed when throwing 12lb, doesn't carry enough, in particular on light hits, u also get the 8 pin spare on some pocket hits (which is 9 pin for the righties).. Speed great, carry not so on light hits...

Matching up the ball to the lane is important, allowing ball to drive into pocket before losing momentum.. I have been noticing some bowlers who have faster speeds, around 17-19 mph (I have been timing them), and obviously like the PBA bowlers who are around that speed, their carry is considerably better than myself, and other bowlers who are bowling around the 15 or less mph mark.

Have tried various weights at various speeds, and can come to the conclusion that if all the balls had the same angle of entry, with the same revs hitting into the pocket, then hard is the way to go.. My issues, is that if you cannot control either through developing a faster approach, or arm speed through release, then you must accept bowling slower, or the alternative is to use a lighter weight ball, allowing you the speed, yet can leave you with far fewer extra light pocket hits... Love all your thoughts on this. I need more speed as I feel that I could perhaps get that extra strike per game, rather than a single 7 pin (10 pin for righties).. unsure still.What can u suggest??

See ya
LL

n00dlejester · « **Reply #5 on:** January 13, 2009, 11:12:41 AM »

Hey LL,

I had a lot of trouble generating speed about a year ago. I was consistently near the 13-14mph area. I took a few lessons, and am in the middle of a long process. I'm trying to get rid of all the excess motion in my approach on the lane. I went from 5 steps to 4. I developed a push-away to help me have a free flowing arm-swing. I've moved back on the approach, to help gather more momentum upon release. And if the lanes are extra dry, I hold the ball higher before starting my approach. I find it's all momentum of your arm with ball speed.

Before accepting bowling slower, I would try moving back on the approach. Your body will want to naturally get near the finish line, and because of that you'll need to make larger steps to get there, increasing your body's speed. It's a very natural and easy way to pick-up your ball speed. The same theory can be applied to holding the ball higher before approach.

I hope some of this helps, and I wish you luck on the lanes!
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AngloBowler · « **Reply #6 on:** January 13, 2009, 11:31:37 AM »

I used to have a pretty low ball speed, around 13 mph just before the pins. I got it up to 15.5-16 by adjusting my timing. I went from 5 to four steps and altered my pushaway so that my body arrives at the line just before the ball, and it's working pretty well.
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nospareball · « **Reply #7 on:** January 13, 2009, 12:10:23 PM »

E=MC^2

M= Mass
C= Velocity
E= Energy

With Velocity being squared, the energy goes up exponentially with increases.

15lb x 13mph^2 = 2535
14lb x 15mph^2 = 3150
12lb x 17mph^2 = 3468

That's the quick and dirty, but I'd bet that you'd have a lot less carry with the 12lb ball just because most don't have real cores in them.
I'd also question that if you can only throw 13mph with a 15lb ball, that dropping 3lbs wouldn't allow you to throw it 4mph faster. The equation works in reverse also, so changes in velocity require a lot more energy than dropping in weight would give you.
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-Clint

Locke · « **Reply #8 on:** January 13, 2009, 05:36:43 PM »

quote:
E=MC^2

M= Mass
C= Velocity
E= Energy

With Velocity being squared, the energy goes up exponentially with increases.

15lb x 13mph^2 = 2535
14lb x 15mph^2 = 3150
12lb x 17mph^2 = 3468

That's the quick and dirty, but I'd bet that you'd have a lot less carry with the 12lb ball just because most don't have real cores in them.
I'd also question that if you can only throw 13mph with a 15lb ball, that dropping 3lbs wouldn't allow you to throw it 4mph faster. The equation works in reverse also, so changes in velocity require a lot more energy than dropping in weight would give you.
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-Clint

Problem, in that equation C is not velocity, its the speed of light. The general idea is true though. You have more energy from lighter balls faster. The problem is a lighter ball will transfer that energy more to the first pins it strikes and thus be shorted when hitting pins farther through the rack. This is why you see lighter balls thrown a lot stronger still deflecting.
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« **Reply #9 on:** January 13, 2009, 08:31:04 PM »

Locke your comment re when a light ball travelling at fast speeds, tranferring a great deal of energy upon hitting head pin and slowing down as it moves through the rack, (leaving corner pins or the occasional 8 or 9 pin spare) has merit....

Interesting as Anglo and noodlejester went from 5 to 4 steps, whereas I went from 4 to 5 about 6 months ago... Hasn't worked yet for me. My team mate has a 4 step approach and takes long and fast strides (hes up arond 18 mph), I try and copy him for a laugh now and then, but it is really difficult to generate that much speed.. I'll try the faster 4 step approach and see how I go.

If you removed the light ball thrown at fast speed put of the equation, and were to choose between the two other options of bowling at medium pace 15 mph with 14lb, or slow 13 mph with 15/16lb,which is best option?

I wonder if there is a way of working it out, if one is truly better than the other.
See ya LL

AngloBowler · « **Reply #10 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:58:52 AM »

quote:
E=MC^2

M= Mass
C= Velocity
E= Energy

With Velocity being squared, the energy goes up exponentially with increases.

15lb x 13mph^2 = 2535
14lb x 15mph^2 = 3150
12lb x 17mph^2 = 3468

I think the equation you were after is:
Ke=1/2 m V^2

0.5 *15lb x 13mph^2 = 1267.5
0.5 *14lb x 15mph^2 = 1575
0.5 *12lb x 17mph^2 = 1734

Which doesn't change the order much. Also this assumes that the balls are travelling in straight lines. Once you start hooking the ball, the maths becomes a lot more complex, especially if you consider the loss of energy due to contact with the surface of the lane (which depends on the oil pattern, ball of choice, among other things), the increased torque you can generate with a lighter ball compared with a heavier one, the increased deflection you see with a light ball when ball position and entry angle are not optimal at contact with the pins.
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AngloBowler · « **Reply #11 on:** January 14, 2009, 04:04:15 AM »

Double post, apologies

quote:
At what point do you sacrifice your balance/leverage for additional speed and carry?

I would say you don't. Balance and leverage are all important and help you generate power if used in the right way. I personally have an elevated backswing (where I lift the ball higher than gravity will take it) and as long as you can

A. lift the ball in a straight (or at least consistent) line
B. Relax on the forward swing

Then this can help to give you additional ball speed, as long as the swing is then appropriately linked to foot movement (timing musn't be too early or ball speed will still be low)

The balance/leverage created by body position, and the power developed from the motion of the fingers around the ball should be sufficient, without the need for extra speed (ball weight is a factor, but above 14 lb I don't think it's significant, I remember reading an article which mentioned a study done, can't remember where or when).
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SleepOnIce · « **Reply #12 on:** January 14, 2009, 07:40:09 AM »

So if I can throw an 8 pound ball 20 MPH, I should use that?
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nospareball · « **Reply #13 on:** January 14, 2009, 09:03:31 AM »

quote:

I think the equation you were after is:
Ke=1/2 m V^2

0.5 *15lb x 13mph^2 = 1267.5
0.5 *14lb x 15mph^2 = 1575
0.5 *12lb x 17mph^2 = 1734

Which doesn't change the order much. Also this assumes that the balls are travelling in straight lines. Once you start hooking the ball, the maths becomes a lot more complex, especially if you consider the loss of energy due to contact with the surface of the lane (which depends on the oil pattern, ball of choice, among other things), the increased torque you can generate with a lighter ball compared with a heavier one, the increased deflection you see with a light ball when ball position and entry angle are not optimal at contact with the pins.
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Reporting from England

Thanks. Concept is the same, which is what I was after. But you're right, there are a ton more variables in bowling, so you just can't say that the more energy the better. Also, you may be able to launch a 8lb ball down the lane at 25mph, but that doesn't mean you're going to get any sort of hand into it.
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-Clint

Author Topic: Ball speed debate. fast with light ball,slow with heavy? (Read 18891 times)

looseleftie

Ball speed debate. fast with light ball,slow with heavy?

Locke

Re: Ball speed debate. fast with light ball,slow with heavy?

AngloBowler

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dizzyfugu

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looseleftie

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n00dlejester

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AngloBowler

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nospareball

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Locke

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AngloBowler

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AngloBowler

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SleepOnIce

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nospareball

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