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Author Topic: The real problem with house shots  (Read 18120 times)

avabob

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The real problem with house shots
« on: August 27, 2012, 01:49:21 PM »
Every so often someone comes on here and starts a thread about the THS, and how bad it is for bowling.  Usually they cite integrity, unrealistic scoring, and and guys spraying the ball all over the lane who shoot award scores. 

Frankly I don't think any of the reasons usually cited for why THS is bad have much validity.  I hear top level scratch bowlers complaining about a house hack shooting 300, and it sounds like sour grapes to me.  Can you imagine a top level PGA pro complaining because an amatuer shoots 66 on a 6200 yard muni?  Bowlers know what they are playing on.

Some people argue that the THS rewards bad execution.   I think that is totally false.  THS may not punish an errant shot as badly as a tournament pattern would, but THS rewards good execution ( speed control, release ). 

So what is the only real problem with the THS?  Until recently it was very difficult to find anything but the THS to bowl league on.  For anyone aspiring to compete at a relatively high level the most important thing to learn is versatility.  You can't learn versatility on a steady diet of one type of condition.  When I was young we bowled on a lot of walled up conditions, but some were dead off the corner, and others had a ton of hold at 3rd arrow.  That is how we developed a versatile game.  Today people should play on as many conditions as possible, including house shots       

 

Djarum

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2012, 10:04:15 AM »
I bowled in a league this summer that rotated between red white and blue patterns througout the league. The white pattern was almost unplayable for most bowlers on older synthetics. The only bowlers who did well on the blue pattern were those with very little hand or those with higher than average speed. The short pattern just made just about everything overreact on the backend on the white pattern. The blue pattern was rather opposite. Most of the better bowlers were bowling better than on red.

There are 3 patterns of each Red, White and Blue of varying lengths, volume and a library of how to set up for each machine.  If the lane topography is not correct for the #1, #2 or #3 R/W/B then  bowlers will find it more difficult.  Proprietors again have to put forth the effort to get the correct number R/W/B for their specific lane topography and climate of their house.  Plus get their lane conditioning machine in good working order.  I tend to think poor lane maintenance is usually the largest issue.

It takes a learning curve.  Now you have to work with your ball speed, release, ball surfaces and layouts to match up the best.  But, I have not found any of the R/W/B patterns unscoreable and much easier than the majority of sport patterns.

We bowled on white number 1 and 3 and blue number 1 and 3. By far the two white ones were the most difficult for the league overall. The 3 was slightly more playable than 1. According the the webite, blue should be harder, but overall, the scores were higher for blue. The amount of friction on clean backends seemed to dictate the ball motion on both white patterns. While blue pattern had less area to play, it was by far easier to get to the pocket and stay there.

I don't know when these patterns were designed if they were designed with new synthetics in mind or not. I had a chance to bowl white number 1 on some newer AMF synthetics and it played much more how I would have expected.

David Lee Yskes

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2012, 11:19:34 AM »
No, it means you averaged 230 for the two games.  A PBA bowler would average well above this on a house shot, so there is no comparison there. 

If only people would realize that a THS inflates scoring for EVERY type of bowler, even the ones who claim to be sport shot pros.   

lol, yes i know the difference between a THS and a PBAX shot..  i was just being a smart a-hole lol..   

But it just made me giggle that i went to bowl a couple games cold and to someone who doesnt know any better they would think they are bowling really well.....

I have always been one for more honest lane conditions to separate the joes from the pro's ... 

" Lift your skirt, grab your balls and learn how to bowl "

David Lee Yskes

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2012, 11:31:07 AM »
DJarum

If my memory is right the White 1 pattern is a lighter volume and shortest??  and tends to play very wet-dry, and gets very crazy when the lanes get some games on them.. 

I've bowled on the White 1 pattern and my first three games i think i was right around a 190 avg... but my second 3 games i shot something like 750 lol....  but the last three games it was basically a carry contest in said tournament..  only because you had a bump area to the right.. 

Now the two blue patterns i've played on was fun!!

the first time, i believe it was the Blue 1, which is just like the White 1..  and my games played out very similar lol..  first 3 games i was right around a 180 average...but the second 3 games, i shoot well over 700...

but the pattern became very wet / dry and had bump room to the right.. 

the second time i played on the blue pattern i think it was the longer pattern cuz it played more like the SHark.....

anything right of 11 missed the pocket...   but once the lanes broke down you had to get really deep cuz everything was checking up early...
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Jorge300

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2012, 03:16:22 PM »
Let me add my .02 to this topic:
 
On the golf vs. bowling comparisons - the one thing I fail to see mentioned is the fact that it takes a lot of practice to improve one's golf game a few strokes. While on a THS pattern it takes zero practice to improve one's average a few pins. People bowling one night a week on an easy THS will see an improved average over the prior year, usually. This alone should show us that the lane conditions are too easy. It has nothing to do with lower average bowlers beating higher average bowlers, it has to do with the fact that people who put zero effort in to improve their games, see improvement based soley on how easy the shot is.....that is just wrong.
 
On the better bowlers averaging higher on THS - while this is true, the easy THS allows the gap between the better bowlers and the lower average bowlers to shrink. The better bowlers develop their games to score on tougher shots. One of the things that makes the shots tougher is usually higher volumes of oil. I have personally seen, and have had happen to me, a higher average bowler who hits his mark more consistently have problems because the lower volumes of oil on a THS don't reward being consistent. The shot breaks down faster cause you are hitting the same spot over and over causing balls to overreact with little or no warning. It causes the better bowlers to make more adjustments (different lines, different balls) than a lower average bowler spraying the ball across a 10 board area. And some nights that means losing carry for the higher average bowlers. The problem with a THS is that it not only rewards the wrong behaviors, it hinders or even handicaps the right behaviors.
 
Bowling is a business, and I know why centers put out the easier THS shots. They want the most bowlers to come to their center and the majority of the bowling world wants to be able to average 210 without practicing and bowling once a week. The centers do not want to lose bowlers, leagues to other centers because they put out a tougher shot. Just like people are asking the bowling ball manufacturers to ban together and fight against the PBA fees, if all the bowling centers in an area (or the BPAA for that matter) got together and said we are going to put out the USBC White or USBC Blue patterns and get away from this too easy THS, maybe we could make a difference. If people still quit then, then that's on them and it shows how spoiled they really are.
 
And lastly, I keep hearing people say THS isn't the problem, but no one has spelled out exactly what the problem is then. If it isn't THS, what IS really the problem? Is it the fact that bowlers are worse than spoiled little brats who want their high scores week in and week out without ever having to practice or improve? Is it the fact that bowlers egos are so big they can't fathom they might not actually be as good as their THS average suggests? Please tell me, I am waiting to hear.
Jorge300

Sms11

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2012, 07:33:37 PM »
The real problem with house shots is not the patterns but the HEADCASES that want to make it a problem!!!
Comparing golf scores to bowling scores lol - apples to oranges - can' t be done.
Hitting a little white ball verses rolling a ball down a lane, of course it is easy in comparison. The real problem is HEADCASES!!! The gap between bowlers, who's fault is that, the pattern - not! The problem is HEADCASES!!! In a 1 game match, anyone can beat anyone. But if a HEADCASE gets beat in a series or block of games, who's fault is that, the pattern? NOT! Fault goes to, you guessed it the HEADCASE. Why you ask, he didn't adjust, he didn't change 1 of the 6 balls he carried in! Or maybe he is just a HEADCASE! The real problem is HEADCASES!!! How often do they practice - get a coach or lesson - try something different? That's right they didn't - they are HEADCASES!!! That's why the gap closes!
Talking about bowling on tougher patterns, the HEADCASES won't. Look around Sport Leagues - Sport Tournaments - no support!!
Bowling is a business and House Shots are a good business decision. Plan and simple!
For those of us that want Sport Patterns to compete on, there is plenty out there to bowl on - we just need to support it! The HEADCASES won't . The percent of good bowlers is about 1-2 percent of bowlers. House shots = good business decision!
Egos and brats = HEADCASES you nailed it! Egos are fueled by there HEADS not the patterns, ie HEADCASES! Shot 250 and win, there great, shot 150 and loose it's the pattern. Typical HEADCASE- THC lol. That's the problem TYPICAL HEADCASE = THC

Now there is a problem in bowling and that is the lack of bowlers. How I see it is the lack of MARKETING. You can't put out a schedule and flyer and hope they show up- but that's another forum.

Once again the problem is TYPICAL HEADCASES THC not House Shots

,,

David Lee Yskes

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2012, 08:28:02 PM »
SMS11 and Jorge,

I've said this for a long time....  If someone advertised for a "league" or for their "house"  and gave incentives like bowl a 300 and you get 300$ or throw a 800 and you get the dollar amount of your score..   

And make the prize fund worth something....   

then you can get away from the easy house shots... and put out a sport shot or w/e house shot that is not a house shot and call it good.... 

why?? because the places that are pumping out 300's every night can't offer the same deal...   

Also , get some sponsor's to pump up the prize fund for the leagues....

the lone scratch league that I am bowling on has a 4000$ first place prize..  and the scratch league is 8 teams of 3 people.. we bowl 4 games and the cost is 20$ per week...  I believe the last place team at the end of the year will get something like 800$ divided 3 ways.... 

Oh and it is sponsored by Miller Lite.... 
" Lift your skirt, grab your balls and learn how to bowl "

Sms11

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2012, 08:46:21 PM »
Wow - my new Beer of choice Miller Lite. Who went out and got the sponsor? The center? Great job! Also 300 every night were do you bowl?

David Lee Yskes

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2012, 09:19:14 PM »
SMS11

I bowl in Grand Rapids, MI @ Wengers  and I believe the owner got the sponsor..  and no they do not pump out 300's every night..  scoring there from what i've heard is hit or miss...   And this is my first year bowling at said place.. So I will let you know how it's going once i have a few weeks of bowling in lol....

I say pumping out 300's every night, loosely about certain places that have pretty easy lane conditions..  could be in my area or in places outside of my area..  heck i think there is a place down in Indiana that pumps out 300's almost weekly.   







" Lift your skirt, grab your balls and learn how to bowl "

mrfrostee

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #54 on: September 07, 2012, 09:21:07 AM »
David,

We have a place like that here in Virginia. Our first night was this past Saturday. Already there was a 300, 299, and 298 bowled. The league is pretty big (five person team, 60 teams). I believe what keeps most coming back is the side action every week. A good night and a person could walk out with $1000-$2000.

Sciflyer379

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2012, 10:08:56 AM »
....All valid responses to the topic.  I truly believe the problem is not with the THS, but the fact that there is still gambling involved.  If you couldn't win jackpots every night no one would whine about how "tough" it was....You would just bowl....I am a firm believer that all competitive leagues should instill a mandatory jackpot format included in the weekly dues... three bracket divisions, based on averages....everyone has a chance to get lucky everynight...  why would a 210 bowler want to lose everynight to a 240 guy...but if he is competing against people of his own Ilk...It makes it exciting for him to spend a few extra bucks....Bottom line....If there is no "USBC" Lane cops, that go from center to center everynight, and check conditions, there can never be tougher shots....It will always be a carry contest.

David Lee Yskes

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2012, 06:03:13 PM »
Frostee,

back in 2003, the house i bowled in for reasons unknown, decided to put out a " super easy " shot...   and the league I bowled in had 12 teams, there was another 12 team league, plus a 6 team league.   And we use to get 5 to 6 brackets going.   Which wasnt " huge " since it was usually the same guys getting into every bracket lol..  yea they probably could of run more brackets but, it would of probably just been the same 8 or so guys who usually got in them..    Well after about a month or so into the league, the same 2 guys seemed to always be taking 1st or 2nd... in every bracket.   

While that wasnt the problem, it was the scoring issue... you had to shoot 250+ to even sniff a chance at beating them..  Both guys at the time was averaging around 250...

The stupid part was the owner even told these two guys, that they shouldnt get into all of the brackets... i guess he was getting flack from other bowlers about it lol...    the two guys basically said   F that it's our money and we can do what we want...   

Well eventually nobody would get into the brackets anymore...  Why??? because the lanes were too easy....  But when the lanes were " tougher "  nobody had a issue with it, because if you bowled 200 to 220, you had a very good chance of winning your match..   

" Lift your skirt, grab your balls and learn how to bowl "