win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Determing Thumb Pitches  (Read 16594 times)

Brickguy221

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9918
Determing Thumb Pitches
« on: August 22, 2008, 08:45:35 AM »
Is there a chart or diagrams as a basic guide line of where to start to determine a starting point in determining a bowlers thumb pitch?

I know that after a bowler bowls awhile that a driller can adjust his thumb pitch from what it is depending on several factors, but say a new bowler that has never bowled, is there a chart or diagrams to aid in determining what pitches to drill his first thumb hole?
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

 

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2008, 12:03:25 PM »
I agree with Pinbuster!

I have found a new and not super expensive way of testing spans and pitches.

Get a turbo or other brand switch grip with a slug.

Drill in a couple of span, pitch ideas into it, if one has a one inch thumb one can adjust span about 1/8 and pitches can be more or less reverse etc.

Brick....it is a long time ago but I remember your thumb being stiffer but about the same lateral.....I swear you tried it......a lateral of near 0....but didn't love it!  I could be wrong.

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

pin-chaser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1802
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2008, 03:36:48 PM »
The truth is it would be FANTASTIC to have a set of rule to follow about proper thumb pitches and spans.  The world would be a great place.

However, the mechanics of the hand is simply not the only factors in determining pitches. Timing (using muscle in the swing), using muscle in your thumb (grabbing the ball), thumb hole size and many other factors help to determine the correct thumb pitches for any specific person.

To say the perfect pitches for a 4.25" span with someones hand that has normal flexability, thumb length, strength and moisture is 1/8" reverse and 0 lateral is rediculous for a bowler with late timing and likes to squeeze the ball. He will NEVER get out of the ball unless the thumb hole size is way to large.

The rule is there is no rule. There are starting points but they might not even be close in the end. Not to mention as a beginner bowler improves and swings loosen up the pitches in the thumb changes and the release improves and there are constant changes in everything.

So a definitive answer is just not possible. There is one guy I know who has a 15/16 size thumb who drills a 1 3/8 thumbhole with a span of 4.5" and uses 7/8 reverse. Of course he squeezes the thumb. Yet he averages 230+ for the last 20 years that way. Is that wrong? Who in there right mind would have ever recommended this? How can any set or rules cover this exception?

The perfect grip for anyone is one that the bowler accepts, feels right to them, allows them to release the ball the way they want with the consistancy they want. Forcing anyone to bowl like anyone else by stating rules that can not be written is just wrong.
--------------------

Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
IRC: Internet Relay Chat on Dalnet #striketalk. 24x7x365
Sponsored by: http://bowlerx.com



Chasing pins for 45 years.

Smash49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2136
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2008, 05:36:40 PM »
Pin-Chaser is correct to a point but there is a few problems.  There are a ton of really bad ball drillers in this world that are completely clueless as to the mechanics of the hand.  Many bowlers blindly trust them because they are the person in the pro shop.  There are many ideas that are just flat garbage.  Also bowling knowledge in parts of the country is still in the stone age.  When an 80 year old woman comes in with a fingertip drilled ball and the ring finger pitches are 0, 1/4 right lateral I have to question the drill. The pro shop in the center we just purchased HAD a really bad pro shop.  They would plug balls and color them with craft paint.  The measuring that was done was very crude.   Average customer comes in and has no idea what is right.  The better average bowlers go somewhere else.
This has been changed.

Smash49

--------------------
Smash49

Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with Bowlers Slide Sock.  The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com

www.chisholmtraillanes.com
Top 100 Coaches by Bowler's Journal International 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012!  Outstanding Coach in the state of Texas by Bowler's Journal International 2006.
IBPSIA Certified Pro Shop Technician
SLSM Designs Bowling Accessories.
www.bowlersslidesock.com

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2008, 06:06:09 PM »
Well since Pin chaser is one of the best bowlers I know or have seen and a very respected professional driller sought out by many wonderful bowlers....I am going to have to say.....I AGREE!

I mean it!

Glad to see him posting and you can't go to a better source that I know of!

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

JohnP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5819
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2008, 10:17:15 PM »
I also agree with Pinbuster, and I do have an adjustable fitting ball.  --  JohnP

Brickguy221

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9918
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2008, 10:30:14 PM »
quote:
Brick....it is a long time ago but I remember your thumb being stiffer but about the same lateral.....I swear you tried it......a lateral of near 0....but didn't love it! I could be wrong.




LuckyLefty, that is correct, but back then on the coke bottle test, my thumb was on the outside of my index finger and now it is between the index and middle finger. I have been throwing 0 lateral without any problem for approx. 20 months now. The reverse is what I am inquiring about with my questions.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

River700

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 864
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2008, 02:05:33 AM »
Hey guys, I found this post very helpful as I am fine tuning the spans and pitches on all my balls. Luckylefty hit it right on the spot. I did try the coke bottle test, and my thumb points to my middle finger. I was just looking at one of my balls and it feels like an 1/8 under palm. So is there a chart for showing finger pitches?

Please let me know thanks
--------------------
If your going to bowl...bowl for fun or go home

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2008, 10:15:46 AM »
Are you going to go to more lateral under palm river?

As to finger pitches....Bill Taylor claims the laterals are for comfort only and the forward reverses are for function.

REGards,

Luckylefty
PS In drilling I have found I need dramatically different laterals in Naked holes than in cushiony inserts!
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

qstick777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5188
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2008, 03:07:52 PM »
quote:
The link to the chart on the Jayhawk site is below.  --  JohnP

http://jayhawkbowling.com/Pro_s_Corner/Pro_Shop_Forms/thumbangle.pdf


If you're having trouble reading that:

http://qstick777.homestead.com/files/thumb_flex_chart.htm


--------------------
Unoffical Ballreviews.com FAQ

Search Ballreviews entire database here

Brickguy221

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9918
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2008, 05:19:29 PM »
Thanks qstick. That chart is much easier to read.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

pin-chaser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1802
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2008, 12:21:36 AM »
Smash49

   I TOTALLY agree.. there MANY MANY MANY poor proshop operators that dont have a clue and honestly dont want a clue. They are happy and full of self righteousness to send bowlers out the door with the newest ball, that has no hope of scoring, that will end up destroying there hands and laugh about it all when they are out the door. Some say that causes built in repeat business. How is a client to know?


As for Bill Taylor and his book and theories... Bill Taylor is a REAL genious. Having spent some time with him, what he has done and attempted to do for this sport goes HUGELY unrecognized and unappreciated. While I am sure that he is 100% correct about his findings for ball drilling, I believe the game has changed since that printing (no square shoulders anymore, no loose armswings, as much power and revs as possible...etc) so much that his methods are a great starting point. However, I am not sure he would believe that. I think a new book will be printed soon that might shed some light on some newer concepts in fitting and drilling.

--------------------

Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
IRC: Internet Relay Chat on Dalnet #striketalk. 24x7x365

Edited on 8/28/2008 0:37 AM
Sponsored by: http://bowlerx.com



Chasing pins for 45 years.

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2008, 07:19:22 AM »
River just curious if you were going to make pitch adjustments?

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

Brickguy221

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9918
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2008, 10:40:06 AM »
quote:
There are a ton of really bad ball drillers in this world that are completely clueless as to the mechanics of the hand.  


Smash, you are 100% correct here. It is sad that a bowler can go to 3-4 different pro shops and get entirely completely different opions/recommendations of what his pitches and span should be. I can understand maybe a slight variation from one shop to another, but not the wide variation that I have seen.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

Smash49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2136
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2008, 11:03:27 AM »
Pin-Chaser

I was lucky enough to be able to sit down and talk with Bill Taylor a couple of years ago.  His book was one of the first things I bought ($249.95 used)when I started having an interest in drilling.  I told him I had a Brown copy of his book and he said he never printed any in brown.  Mine was just so old that it had turned brown.  It's printed in English and Japanese.  Sandra gave me a new copy for my birthday a last year.  I think it is a great starting point.  IBPSIA is trying to update and modernize much of the technics for drilling and making this available by HOTS training.  The craft is ongoing and changes as more knowledge is gained.  The basic theories for the most part still apply.

Smash49
--------------------
Smash49

Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with Bowlers Slide Sock.  The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com

www.chisholmtraillanes.com
Top 100 Coaches by Bowler's Journal International 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012!  Outstanding Coach in the state of Texas by Bowler's Journal International 2006.
IBPSIA Certified Pro Shop Technician
SLSM Designs Bowling Accessories.
www.bowlersslidesock.com

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2008, 12:11:48 PM »
I think I mentioned above that Bill is all for going forward for thumb pitches for better bowlers from the table while maintaining the span.

However he is really FOR lateral under palm pitches if they are called for by the coke bottle test.  This is not a current position for most of today's bowlers.

I do not....I believe Parker Bohn went from lateral under left 1/4 a couple of years ago.  I believe he tried 0, developed shoulder problems and now I believe he is 1/8 left.  I have no idea if the shoulder problems had anything to do with this....but I know he can sure look great sometimes bowling now....AGAIN.  Note this is the same as a righty going right if the thumb anatomy calls for it!

I know Deadbait has mentioned that there is call for lateral underpalm pitches when trying to achieve certain rolls.

I believe I am saying that right.

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana