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Author Topic: Disillusioned  (Read 10261 times)

Gizmo823

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Disillusioned
« on: November 18, 2013, 09:35:40 AM »
Sometimes you can have too much information.  I've spent the last several weeks really digging and getting super technical in an attempt to figure out some new ways to explain certain concepts to a customer who is having a lot of trouble understanding bowling in general.  To his credit, he really wants a full understanding of what's going on, but he's so new to all of this that the advanced stuff is really throwing him for a loop, mostly because he's trying to go too fast, and hops on one train really quickly and runs with it.  In the process however, my findings have been rather disappointing.  There are so many variables to bowling, the physics of it are such that regardless of what control you think you have over the outcome of a game, lane transition, layout, etc., you're relying on an astronomical number of things to work together in your favor every time you let go of the ball. 



Ball design has nowhere to go, no different than tire technology.  They may find ways to alter and adjust things, but durability is about the only thing they can hope to improve on.  You can reshuffle the deck as much as you'd like, but the cards will never change.  You can't overcome physics. 



Jayhawk's ball surface scanner has shown and proven that ball surface changes so significantly over the course of just one league set that what you think you're doing to the surface of your ball and what grit you think you're keeping it at are uncontrollably inconsistent. 



Now what you think I might be saying here is actually opposite of the point I'm making.  There are so many variables in the numbers and the science, that you the bowler are really the only thing that makes a difference.  The amount of variables make it IMPOSSIBLE to control anything mathematically, what really matters is a bowler's intuition, vision, and ability to read ball reaction.  It's literally an every single shot adjustment, even if that means not making one.  Humans are simply not accurate enough to be able to realistically apply the required consistency to take advantage of the applied mathematics.  All the layouts, ball design, surfaces, lane surfaces, lane oils, ball motion studies, what have you, that all doesn't really amount to anything.  The person throwing the ball is literally all that matters, we might as well go back to throwing plastic balls.  All this technology just adds a bunch of extra steps and confusion to something so complicated that it's reduced to simplicity due to factors that are outside reasonable control.  Or in other words, there are so few things that we as humans can actually control or affect that it's literally impossible to take advantage of the endlessly complex mathematics that there are to work with.  There is no spoon. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

 

Elimeno Pee

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2013, 04:36:26 PM »
As much as I may try and understand the numbers myself, I look to my PROFESSIONAL driller to truly understand them.   Last time I had a ball drilled, I literally told him that another of his customer's, and my friend, equipment usually works good off my hand when I throw it, drill mine like his, but slightly less aggressive....   and I got what I was looking for (my span of course)  I don't need to know the numbers beyond a range of Diff, Rg, and Cover that typically works for me.
Wise bowler told me once: K.I.S.S.   Keep it simple stupid.

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kidlost2000

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2013, 06:07:29 PM »
Numbers of an undrilled bowling ball do not matter. Surface and the bowling balls intended purpose means everything. Find the ball designed for the condition your facing and drill the ball accordingly. That is the simple truth.

The other factor that everyone overlooks and is in our control is spares. Most of us cannot throw the ball the way a pro does, or have access to all of the bowling ball resources a pro does. We can all work on having a spare game closer to the pros which will increase our own scores overall greatly.

No manufactures advertises that because it doesn't sell $hit for them. They can sell you on balls that should strike more for you on all conditions but it is the spares that will carry your game.

 I'm more impressed with a clean set then anything these days because of how hard it is to do.

…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

kidlost2000

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2013, 06:09:07 PM »
For example next time in league write down your score as you go through the night on paper. Change all of your opens to spares and add up what your score would have been vs what you had and see how impressive spares really are.

Is it 10 pins a set? For most it is likely 50 pins or greater a set that your leaving out there.

…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

tburky

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2013, 06:18:28 PM »
For example next time in league write down your score as you go through the night on paper. Change all of your opens to spares and add up what your score would have been vs what you had and see how impressive spares really are.

Is it 10 pins a set? For most it is likely 50 pins or greater a set that your leaving out there.


I agree 100% kid. Almost everybody worries about striking or how frigging much they can hook the ball. Spares are the last thing they have on their mind.

itsallaboutme

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2013, 06:09:28 AM »
The only reason the numbers of an undrilled bowling ball do not matter is because you don't use undrilled bowling balls.

The numbers of a core do not lie.  Relying only on marketing material to choose your bowling ball is the reason so many people "don't match up".  For the person that goes to bowl league with their double roller it doesn't matter.  For the person that drills 6 or 8 balls a year it does.

Good Times Good Times

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2013, 06:23:08 AM »
In the words of my late grandfather, "make your spares, the strikes will come".
GTx2

kidlost2000

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2013, 07:10:39 AM »
The only reason the numbers of an undrilled bowling ball do not matter is because you don't use undrilled bowling balls.

The numbers of a core do not lie.  Relying only on marketing material to choose your bowling ball is the reason so many people "don't match up".  For the person that goes to bowl league with their double roller it doesn't matter.  For the person that drills 6 or 8 balls a year it does.


Core numbers aren't the reason they do not match up. Layout and lane condition is the reason most do not match up.


Mo in reference to the USBC ball motion study and bowling ball characteristics

"The study proved that the most important factor in determining ball motion is coverstock. Next in importance are the mass properties of the ball, followed by the least important factor, the ball’s static weight balance.


As the study showed, the coverstock of the ball has the most impact followed by the RG and the total differential of the ball. My latest research now shows that those factors have very little effect on the shape of the ball’s motion after the first transition.

The most important factor in determining the shape of a drilled ball’s motion is differential ratio. It will determine the length of the hook zone, which determines the location of the second transition on the lane, once the first transition has been determined by the ball’s coverstock, RG, and total differential.

The diff ratio affects the ability of lane friction to steer the ball and pin carry. Diff ratio affects both the bowler’s margin for error on any given lane condition and the bowler’s strike percentage.


The diff ratio of a drilled bowling ball is determined by the design of the ball and the drilling technique used. The drilling technique consists of the layout and the balance hole location and size (if one is used). In my experience, the layout created by the drilling technique is about 40 percent of ball reaction while the balance hole location and size are 60 percent of the reaction. I have also observed that a ball’s designed reaction may be reduced by as much as 29 percent or increased by as much as 55 percent by the drilling technique used on that ball.

Obviously, the coverstock is a major factor in choosing the right ball. After deciding on a cover, the next decision to be made concerns a symmetrical or asymmetrical ball. Symmetrical balls yield drilled balls with smaller differential ratios. This will produce a drilled ball with a smoother, more controllable motion when compared to an undrilled asymmetrical ball.

Varying degrees of longer transitioning (longer hook zone) ball motion can be obtained by choosing to drill a symmetrical ball. The degree of control and continuation that the drilled ball will have depends on the exact ball chosen. You’ll
need to rely on a knowledgeable ball driller to help you make that decision.

Asymmetrical balls yield drilled balls with more defined, more angular breakpoints. These balls can create more area at the breakpoint and will respond to friction at the breakpoint faster. Again, there are a wide variety of ball motions available from asymmetrical balls by choosing different covers and balls with different diff
ratios, total diffs, and RGs.

Finally, the drilling technique for the drilled ball must be chosen to guarantee the exact ball reaction for that bowler. Drilling techniques will result in the drilled ball having a wide range of diff ratios and total diffs. I refer back to a previous
statement made in this article. A designed ball’s reaction may be reduced by as much as 29 percent or increased by as much as 55 percent by the drilling technique used on that ball. That fact should emphasize the importance of choosing
the correct drilling technique.
"


This echo's the thought of picking the right ball for the right condition and drilling it to match the bowler for that condition. It isn't based on the core numbers, it is based on the bowling balls intended purpose.
 
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

itsallaboutme

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2013, 07:26:31 AM »
design of the ball=core numbers

There is science behind it all. 


Snakster

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2013, 07:34:45 AM »
In the words of my late grandfather, "make your spares, the strikes will come".

That is almost exactly what I tell my son. The days his scores really suffer is when he's leaving makeable spares in the deck.

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kidlost2000

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2013, 07:45:30 AM »
 A designed ball’s reaction may be reduced by as much as 29 percent or increased by as much as 55 percent by the drilling technique used on that ball. That fact should emphasize the importance of choosing the correct drilling technique.

Any ball will work for any bowler.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

itsallaboutme

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2013, 08:13:12 AM »
There is no debating you can enhance or retard a balls reaction with the layout.  But you are enhancing or retarding the reaction that you are starting with.  Which is based on the core of the ball, and of course the cover.


You need to read the whole article you pasted, not just the parts that support your argument.

As the study showed, the coverstock of the ball has the most impact followed by the RG and the total differential of the ball. My latest research now shows that those factors have very little effect on the shape of the ball’s motion after the first transition.

The most important factor in determining the shape of a drilled ball’s motion is differential ratio. It will determine the length of the hook zone, which determines the location of the second transition on the lane, once the first transition has been determined by the ball’s coverstock, RG, and total differential.

kidlost2000

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2013, 08:52:52 AM »
I have read. That number is arrived based on the drilling of the ball and the location of the weight hole. They can change the core numbers by a large percent. How you dri the ball determines what the ratio will be.

If you think the core matters for a bowler then do share how.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

itsallaboutme

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2013, 09:14:27 AM »
All the final numbers are a result of what you start with.  It's that simple.  You're changing the core numbers you start with by a large percentage. 

The RG of a core has a direct effect on performance.  Given two balls that are identical except RG, you will get less performance out of the higher RG ball.  Given two balls identical except for diff, the lower diff ball will result in lower performance.  These numbers matter.  It is in the information you pasted as well as the Ball Motion Study. 

I'm at a loss of how to explain it.  Design of the ball=core numbers.  Intent of the ball is marketing. 

avabob

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2013, 10:43:39 AM »
Everything in the original post is true.  However, it was just as true 50 years ago when most of those variables were still present, and we just didn't understand them, or even know about them.  The only real answer is that bowling always was and continues to be a game that proves very little in the short run.  In the long run the cream comes to the top in terms of consistent execution and ability to adjust.  You can only control a fraction of the variables.

For those who say it is too much about luck, I agree.  However I also know that the harder I work the luckier I get

Gizmo823

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2013, 02:08:54 PM »
But all we're really talking about here is drilling creating a deviation from intended ball reaction.  You can reduce or increase the ball's reaction . . but I can also do that depending on where I stand on the lane and how I adjust my speed and revs.  Specific drillings pigeonhole you into a certain zone on the lane to get the intended reaction, and that's when the lanes are cooperating.  Yes it can all help you out, but my point is that I'd feel really comfortable just grabbing a plastic ball and taking what the lane gave me against most people that roll in 6 balls, and I'd really like my chances.  Again, there are a lot of things that sound theoretically interesting or that do or can apply . . but reactives also create just as many problems as they solve. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?