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Author Topic: Disillusioned  (Read 10263 times)

Gizmo823

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Disillusioned
« on: November 18, 2013, 09:35:40 AM »
Sometimes you can have too much information.  I've spent the last several weeks really digging and getting super technical in an attempt to figure out some new ways to explain certain concepts to a customer who is having a lot of trouble understanding bowling in general.  To his credit, he really wants a full understanding of what's going on, but he's so new to all of this that the advanced stuff is really throwing him for a loop, mostly because he's trying to go too fast, and hops on one train really quickly and runs with it.  In the process however, my findings have been rather disappointing.  There are so many variables to bowling, the physics of it are such that regardless of what control you think you have over the outcome of a game, lane transition, layout, etc., you're relying on an astronomical number of things to work together in your favor every time you let go of the ball. 



Ball design has nowhere to go, no different than tire technology.  They may find ways to alter and adjust things, but durability is about the only thing they can hope to improve on.  You can reshuffle the deck as much as you'd like, but the cards will never change.  You can't overcome physics. 



Jayhawk's ball surface scanner has shown and proven that ball surface changes so significantly over the course of just one league set that what you think you're doing to the surface of your ball and what grit you think you're keeping it at are uncontrollably inconsistent. 



Now what you think I might be saying here is actually opposite of the point I'm making.  There are so many variables in the numbers and the science, that you the bowler are really the only thing that makes a difference.  The amount of variables make it IMPOSSIBLE to control anything mathematically, what really matters is a bowler's intuition, vision, and ability to read ball reaction.  It's literally an every single shot adjustment, even if that means not making one.  Humans are simply not accurate enough to be able to realistically apply the required consistency to take advantage of the applied mathematics.  All the layouts, ball design, surfaces, lane surfaces, lane oils, ball motion studies, what have you, that all doesn't really amount to anything.  The person throwing the ball is literally all that matters, we might as well go back to throwing plastic balls.  All this technology just adds a bunch of extra steps and confusion to something so complicated that it's reduced to simplicity due to factors that are outside reasonable control.  Or in other words, there are so few things that we as humans can actually control or affect that it's literally impossible to take advantage of the endlessly complex mathematics that there are to work with.  There is no spoon. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

 

Jorge300

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2013, 02:21:44 PM »
One thing I'd like to add, about those saying that you need to make your spares. While that is very true.....you still need throw strikes. If you make 100% of your spares 100% of the time but throw no strikes, you will not average over 200.
Jorge300

kidlost2000

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2013, 03:08:44 PM »
One thing I'd like to add, about those saying that you need to make your spares. While that is very true.....you still need throw strikes. If you make 100% of your spares 100% of the time but throw no strikes, you will not average over 200.

How many all spare games do you see? If you are that good with spares your probably mixing in your fair share of strikes. Are there going to be games where you have only a couple because of bad carry and other breaks...yes no matter your average. Being able to adjust to changing conditions by ball, hand placement, or moving your lines will be a huge roll in every bowlers game. While trying to find your line again if your not sparing your score with 2 strike and two or three opens will be far less then an all spare game.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

kidlost2000

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2013, 03:33:07 PM »
All the final numbers are a result of what you start with.  It's that simple.  You're changing the core numbers you start with by a large percentage. 

The RG of a core has a direct effect on performance.  Given two balls that are identical except RG, you will get less performance out of the higher RG ball.  Given two balls identical except for diff, the lower diff ball will result in lower performance.  These numbers matter.  It is in the information you pasted as well as the Ball Motion Study. 

I'm at a loss of how to explain it.  Design of the ball=core numbers.  Intent of the ball is marketing. 
All the final numbers are a result of what you start with.  It's that simple.  You're changing the core numbers you start with by a large percentage. 

The RG of a core has a direct effect on performance.  Given two balls that are identical except RG, you will get less performance out of the higher RG ball.  Given two balls identical except for diff, the lower diff ball will result in lower performance.  These numbers matter.  It is in the information you pasted as well as the Ball Motion Study. 

I'm at a loss of how to explain it.  Design of the ball=core numbers.  Intent of the ball is marketing. 

Yes you have to start somewhere. If you have your first example of two bowling balls with identical covers and one has a higher RG vs one having a lower RG doesn't mean you will get less performance out of one vs the other. If one is 2.55 to start vs 2.50 with equal covers and equal diffs I'd say you can drill them to roll almost identical. You can also have the lower rg ball drilled to be less then the higher rg and visa versa.

Same for Diffs especially. It can be affected the most by pin placement and x-hole location. Because a ball has a .020 diff vs a ball with a .040 diff doesn't mean the end performance results can not be almost identical if the covers and the rgs to start are the same.

In most real world situations the balls will be different with similar intended purposes.

Strike King SK13 cover with  RG 2.57 Diff .028
Karma b/g PK18 pearl cover with RG 2.52 Diff .040
Slingshot  Pk17 pearl cover with RG 2.58 Diff.017

Which of these will be the bigger hooking ball if you based it off of core only?
What is the intended purpose of each of these balls?

Karma has the Lowest rg and highest diff of the 3 by a decent amount yet all three are listed for almost identical purposes.

The numbers aren't as big a deciding factor as you think.

They are part of the intended purpose of the ball. So if you buy a ball for drier conditions the core numbers aren't an issue because it is factored in the balls performance. RG, Diff will all be where the ball is needed to be for that condition. Heavy oil ball the same way. The core cover combo is going to be where it needs to be prior to drilling the ball for that condition. Your not going to buy a heavy oil ball with a RG of 2.62 and a Diff of .020

Then it is a matter of matching the drilling to the ball and the condition. I never base a ball purchase off of the core numbers. I buy based on suggested condition and where it will fit in an arsenal.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

itsallaboutme

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2013, 04:17:21 PM »
The only thing I know about these balls is they are lower priced Brunswick balls.  Without inside information you don't even know if they use the original formulation of PK 17 & 18 or what SK13 actually is.  So the only thing these balls have in common to me is price point. 

I'm not saying you can't drill a stronger core weak and a weaker core stronger to get them to react close.  I'm saying if the other variables are constant the 2.50 ball is going to be stronger than the 2.55 ball.  So the numbers matter. 

It may not matter to you, but if it didn't matter we wouldn't be limited to 2.46 .060 when making a ball.


kidlost2000

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2013, 04:37:45 PM »
"Without inside information you don't even know if they use the original formulation of PK 17 & 18 or what SK13 actually is.  So the only thing these balls have in common to me is price point."

(I use Brunswick primarily so that is easiest for me to go off of)

Original or non original formula isn't the concern. What you said is. All three are there entry level/upper entry level bowling balls from the past few years. PK17 PK18 and now SK13 are all very VERY similar. They are all marketed as the same shape ball in the same lighter oil category. All three have very different cores yet all three are almost identical on the lanes. The Karma has the most aggressive core, but the Strike King is every bit the ball with a higher RG and lower diff.

I used to live and die by these core numbers a few years ago. Pick your favorite manufacture that you use and select theres and other brands biggest hooking bowling balls.

All of them have different covers, all of them have much different cores and core numbers but all are deigned for the same thing. If you picked one over the other because the RG was 2.52 vs 2.55 or the diff was .050 vs .055 and thought that was going to be the deciding factor you would be kidding yourself.

Blueprint software is a great way to compare a variety of different bowling balls, layouts cover adjustments and test them virtually on any condition. The biggest difference will be the cover and layout more so then the core.(when comparing similar bowling balls)

If comparing a Slingshot to the Mastermind in terms of core yes it is a huge difference. When comparing a Ruckus and a Mastermind not so much.

If the ball says it is for medium oil with lots of midlane it has the core factored in. You no longer have to think about it. You drill accordingly for that reaction. If you are looking at the core numbers and say that's impossible and skip the ball for that reason your fooling yourself.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

itsallaboutme

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2013, 05:00:53 PM »
I give up.  You can buy your balls based off the marketing material.  I'll sell them based off what they actually do.

If the performance of those balls is almost identical the covers aren't as similar as you are led to believe.

kidlost2000

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2013, 05:15:40 PM »
"You can buy your balls based off the marketing material.  I'll sell them based off what they actually do."

If you limit your idea of what the ball will do based on core numbers then your missing out on a lot. I'd be more interested in why you would select one ball over another on core numbers when comparing one or multiple manufactures bowling balls. Since you sell I am sure you have plenty of examples to back your ideas.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

itsallaboutme

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2013, 05:32:19 PM »
Maybe I look at things a little differently because I know balls are marketed based on the core and cover combination, but the cover isn't always what it is marketed as.  I hope that makes sense.

But once you test balls that you know are the same coverstock you see the difference in reaction between balls with different core numbers.


kidlost2000

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2013, 06:10:23 PM »
I agree marketing is based on the core and cover for the desired reaction. That is why I know longer focus on the core numbers as a factor when choosing a ball.

example
If two bowling balls both say they are for heavy oil, light oil, medium oil, hook early, hook late, heavy midlane ect I know that is factored in. It is a matter of drilling that ball accordingly for the bowler to use on that condition.

Some bowlers will argue that a ball with an RG of 2.53 or higher doesn't roll good for them, or a ball with a .030 diff will not hook for them ect. That always makes me laugh. Especially when they argue that on the exact same ball the 15lb core is 2.50 and the 14lb core is 2.53 and they will not buy it because the ball will not roll good for them because the rg is too high. For some reason thinking the manufacture is making the different weights hook and look completely different in the one ball.

If you had the exact same coverstock and 5 different cores and all were marketed for the same thing I would have no issue believing that and drilling any of them. I would not pick one over the other because of a difference in core numbers.

…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

Gizmo823

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2013, 08:14:59 AM »
Truth be told, I have come to almost completely ignore ball specs.  I watch as many videos I can of the ball being thrown and go from there.  I used to be able to see and feel different core numbers, but with the differences in the combinations of core and coverstock they're using now, it's changing things up.  There are several balls coming out now with higher rgs and more aggressive coverstocks, but they roll like lower rg balls of the past.  So if I take my Brutal Nightmare for example, it has an average rg of 2.53, but if I didn't know that and had to guess, I'd have said something like 2.48 just because it rolls so heavy.  Again, the deeper into the numbers I get, the more I realize it's needless confusion.  I understand what they're trying to do, but there's too much going on to take advantage of the science and the math.  If you're looking for another reason bowling has gone downhill, I'd point at that. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

avabob

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2013, 10:30:42 AM »
Core shell matchup is more important than any of the other specs, and there is no objective measure for those relationships.  Obvious example is some really low rg cores don't matchup well with highly aggressive solid shells.  Manufacturers have been guilty of doing this with many of their high end balls. Trying to satisfy customer demand for max hook, even though max hook is counterproductive to many styles and on many conditions doesn't produce the best product.  Best examples recently have been balls like the Frantic, Hyroads, and Versamax.  All great balls in midprice range with the strongest cores or shells.

Some examples of great core shell matchups, followed by poorer matchups in an attempt to make balls better.  Original Mission.  Probably one of the best tournament balls ever produced by Ebonite.  Mission X and others that followed were all more aggressive, but less useful for most styles.  Virtual Gravity was one of the top core shell matchups from Storm.  Nanos, Nano Pearls, were both stronger, but not nearly as useful for most styles.

Another thing to remember is that THS conditions can make lots of balls look good.  More demanding conditions with less swing or back end are where the cream comes to the top in terms of equipment and style.     
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 10:53:40 AM by avabob »

strikeking

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2013, 01:38:58 PM »
I think the most important thing for a "new" bowler to understand is how to get proper "roll" on a ball at release. All of the latest and greatest balls don't mean anything if they do not have the proper roll which promotes pin carry and consistency of reaction.
Strikeking