Author Topic: Do shorter bowlers have an advantage? (Read 10403 times)

earlthepearle · « **on:** November 16, 2006, 12:29:41 AM »

Ive ask this question many times to my bowling colleagues...Many of them are shorter the I am....(6'3")....and they are very good I might add...My theory is this...it seems shorter players dont have to use as much physical strength as taller bowlers. They are closer to the foul line at the point of release, they dont have to bend as much, therefore creating a more natural and smoother roll. I watch Walter Ray a lot.... He and I are about the same height....long arms and legs. Have you ever noticed all the the things he goes thru just to get his ball down the lane? The shorter bowlers take this advantage for granted. As for the taller bowlers...have you ever noticed it? or thought about it?...just want to get some perspective.......Earl

monstercrank · « **Reply #16 on:** November 16, 2006, 12:49:13 PM »

you guys just look for EVERY consivable excuse as to why someone else out scores you dont you? first its even though Im a clearly better bowler, leftys are cheating and thats the only reason they beat me, no possible way that they are better than me or at least had a better day! and now, there is a new one! SORT! well I would have beat him but the cheater is 4 inches shorter than me! WTF all the excuses in the world wont make you better.

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"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'" - Bob Newhart
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If guns kill people then spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat!
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Some people are like Slinkies....
Not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile
to your face... when you push one down a flight of stairs.
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OMG me throwing my BLACK WIDOW!!!

Tweener92 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 16, 2006, 01:12:50 PM »

Being short is the excuse I use when people say "we can't even hear your ball hit the lanes." I tell them that it doesn't have as far to fall..lol
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Tim
Member of The Track Legion

R.I.P. Mom
Aug 29 1957 - Aug 3 2006

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #18 on:** November 16, 2006, 04:50:45 PM »

Regarding a book being written on the subject...not sure if a complete book has been written...but I believe sizable portions of books or pamphlets written by Bill Taylor in the past were devoted to this subject!

If I remember right(not sure...but something back there)...some bowlers took offense to his remarks because they had sort of a feel to those bowlers that Bill was saying to them that for them to reach bowling elites level would be highly unlikely due to body type! (That is the way I remember it).

I actually believe Bill believed that adjustment strategies could be developed for bowlers with wide hips in relation to their shoulders(ie Don Carter)! Or bowlers with short legs and long upper bodies.

Bill even had a book out called (I think)... "What really happened to Don Carter". This was written as Don's career wound down. The book focused on the successful compensations Don Carter had made in accomodating his wide hip structure which had allowed him to be successful. He then went on to describe how by going more classic in style he had created a series of positions that led him to a less effective stance at the line(ie ball farther away from his ankle...and led to the quick decline of his magnificent career). This was not greeted with enthusiasm I have heard by the superstar Mr. Carter(who could blame him!).

This basic principle of leverage at the line was one of Mr. Taylor's key concepts!

Slightly off the subject but showing his belief in body positions at the line.
Mr. Taylor had a booklet called "Balance". In this booklet (which also covers ball weighting techniques of the day)he also detailed a process he had of calling pin leaves based on body position at the line.
I understand he made a lot of money doing this. (I've seen him be quite uncanny in calling these things BEFORE the ball is much over the foul line). This portion of this above booklet is a quite fascinating study of the relationship of ball line starting path, foot position and shoulder postion in relation to foot position in relation to the ball starting line!

Bright man!

REgards,

Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

shelley · « **Reply #19 on:** November 16, 2006, 05:02:43 PM »

quote:
If everyone that claims to have a freearm swing matched themselves up with someone who was also their height and same wingspan who also claimed to have a free arm swing than I feel that they should generate the same exact ball speed, but no one does because no one truly free swings it

The laws of pendulum motion dictates that you are correct, two bowlers with identical arms (that is, the same distance from the pivot point at the shoulder to something like the center of mass of the system as a whole) standing still and swinging the ball, then they will swing at the same speed.

But there are a lot of other factors involved in the release of a bowling ball. The movement of the pivot point, for one. You don't take into account foot speed. They may have the same height, they may even have the same arms and ball weights. But if one walks faster than the other, they will have different ball speeds.

Hold on, you physicists. I said "same ball weight" but everyone who knows anything about pendulum motion knows that the main factor is the distance from the pivot to the center of mass of the bob and has nothing to do with the actual mass of the bob itself (the gravitational acceleration g also plays a role, but it's practically constant). Ideal pendulums have no mass in the arm and all of the system's mass is in the bob. The distance to the center of mass is the length of the arm.

But the center of mass of this system isn't the center of the ball because the ball doesn't comprise all of the system's mass. Your arm has mass, and since it's at least comparable to the weight of the ball itself, it's not negligible. Tie a ball to the end of a string, sure, the string is negligible. Grip it at the end of your arm, and, you know, not so negligible.

If both bowlers have the same distribution of mass in their arms, neither is more or less muscular than the other, then the speeds should be close. But if one's arm is more massive than the other, then that will cause the center of mass of the arm-ball system to move. Thus the length of the pendulum will move as well, and the speed of the bob will change.

Your theory also doesn't take into account friction of the pivot. I would guess it's pretty insignificant, but you never know. Someone with very stiff joints, no matter how relaxed and free their swing is (when we say "free", we're usually talking about how we use the muscles in our arms, shoulders, and back to affect the ball motion, not the friction in our joints), will necessarily have a lower ball speed because some of the pendulum's energy is burned by friction.

But for a first-order approximation, it's probably a sound theory.

SH

Edited on 11/16/2006 6:00 PM

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #20 on:** November 16, 2006, 05:21:56 PM »

for whatever happened to Don Carter

This page...Don Carter book

For "Balance"

Balance

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

LuvThatWhiteDot · « **Reply #21 on:** November 16, 2006, 07:16:23 PM »

quote:
As a member of the Short People of America ((lol)) I think we short people ((I'm 5'2)) have better balance and flow a little better, but you bigger guys can generate more speed and throw it a lot harder than us.

I prefer being called diminutive. I'm 4'10"

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White Dot

Johnny Depp is my chocolate. He's dark, sumptuous and tasty.
"I wish I was in Tijuana...eating barbequed iguana..."
GO LEAFS GO!!

earlthepearle · « **Reply #22 on:** November 17, 2006, 12:30:10 AM »

Quote

Regarding a book being written on the subject...not sure if a complete book has been written...but I believe sizable portions of books or pamphlets written by Bill Taylor in the past were devoted to this subject!

If I remember right(not sure...but something back there)...some bowlers took offense to his remarks because they had sort of a feel to those bowlers that Bill was saying to them that for them to reach bowling elites level would be highly unlikely due to body type! (That is the way I remember it).

I actually believe Bill believed that adjustment strategies could be developed for bowlers with wide hips in relation to their shoulders(ie Don Carter)! Or bowlers with short legs and long upper bodies.

Bill even had a book out called (I think)... "What really happened to Don Carter". This was written as Don's career wound down. The book focused on the successful compensations Don Carter had made in accomodating his wide hip structure which had allowed him to be successful. He then went on to describe how by going more classic in style he had created a series of positions that led him to a less effective stance at the line(ie ball farther away from his ankle...and led to the quick decline of his magnificent career). This was not greeted with enthusiasm I have heard by the superstar Mr. Carter(who could blame him!).

This basic principle of leverage at the line was one of Mr. Taylor's key concepts!

Slightly off the subject but showing his belief in body positions at the line.
Mr. Taylor had a booklet called "Balance". In this booklet (which also covers ball weighting techniques of the day)he also detailed a process he had of calling pin leaves based on body position at the line.
I understand he made a lot of money doing this. (I've seen him be quite uncanny in calling these things BEFORE the ball is much over the foul line). This portion of this above booklet is a quite fascinating study of the relationship of ball line starting path, foot position and shoulder postion in relation to foot position in relation to the ball starting line!

Bright man!

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------

Lucky...sorry it took me so long for the reply...It was my league night. Very interesting info. Thanks

P.S. That was a hell of a post

earlthepearle · « **Reply #23 on:** November 17, 2006, 12:31:52 AM »

Likewise Shelley....

Author Topic: Do shorter bowlers have an advantage? (Read 10403 times)

earlthepearle

Do shorter bowlers have an advantage?

monstercrank

Re: Do shorter bowlers have an advantage?

Tweener92

Re: Do shorter bowlers have an advantage?

LuckyLefty

Re: Do shorter bowlers have an advantage?

shelley

Re: Do shorter bowlers have an advantage?

LuckyLefty

Re: Do shorter bowlers have an advantage?

LuvThatWhiteDot

Re: Do shorter bowlers have an advantage?

earlthepearle

Re: Do shorter bowlers have an advantage?

earlthepearle

Re: Do shorter bowlers have an advantage?