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Author Topic: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?  (Read 8581 times)

ITZPS

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Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« on: April 06, 2015, 09:34:45 AM »
I believe at one time I argued the opposite, but I really think the easier the shot is, the more it benefits higher average or better bowlers.  While you'll have your 170-200 average bowler have a nice game or set here or there, if you have a scratch bowler that can consistently hit 2-3 boards, and they have 5 or 6, in the long run, the lower average bowler really has no chance.  You take that 230 average bowler and put them on a shot that requires them to hit the same 2 boards every shot, and that average will fall quite a bit more than the 170-200 average bowler will.  A 170 average bowler will be about the same on virtually anything.  They aren't consistent enough to take advantage of a shot no matter how easy it is, which also dilutes the challenge of a tougher shot. 

Could enough of a case be made to the lower average bowler, which represents the vast majority of USBC members and league bowlers, to trend more towards tougher shots?  Probably not, but the thought is nice.  However, usually anything that benefits someone will immediately pique their interest.  You would have to think they would get quite a bit of enjoyment out of seeing the high and mighty primadonnas frustrated with shooting 200 or less on occasion.  Yes the lower averages would still see a hit on their averages, but where the answer has normally been more handicap, it gets to a point where handicap obviously becomes unfair in one direction or the other, and will never move much no matter how much you argue about it.  Thoughts?
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2015, 01:30:35 PM »
First off, I don't think it necessarily correct to call house shots easier in the sense they reward inconsistency.  All patterns reward players who can repeat shots over those who cannot, whether it is a flat tourney pattern or a walled up house shot.

I'll say this, and I'll preface it by saying I don't disagree per se, but I have had some big nights (750+) on some wide-open THS' that I know I didn't throw the ball well, at all.  I've also had some nights I've thrown the ball well and shot 650.

That's just me being flat-out honest.
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avabob

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2015, 01:41:09 PM »
Good point about different types of 170-200 average bowler.  I do think the game has trended away from accurate 180 average guy who just doesn't throw enough ball to carry.  When I was young there were a lot of scratch bowlers who averaged 185-190 and were very accurate, but didn't throw enough ball to average much better.  Today, not so much.  The carry potential is so high with the modern ball if you can get something on it.  However I have contended for some time that for high rev players it is not so much about being inaccurate ( spraying ) as it is about crossing so many boards that the vagaries of carrydown and breakdown come in to play.  On a house shot the dry outside becomes a constant that you can always throw to as you move in.  On flatter patterns the power player ends up being more impacted by carrydown outside, and is also crossing a track as they break down the heads.

As for shooting 750 when you don't throw the ball particularly well, and 650 when you throw it good, I totally agree.  I would bet however that your less than best is probably still pretty good, meaning that it all gets down to carry.  I have experienced for the last 10 or 15 years that on a house shot I will shoot 730 one night, and 640 the next  simply because I have to hook the ball too much for my rev rate, and cant control my break point and tip for maximum carry.  One night it is great the next night I have to line up for it to go a bit too long.  The modern balls and high friction dry areas can be very rough for carry on us tweeners as the ball goes from skid to burn so quickly.   

Another point someone made was about no tap.  I don't think handicap bowlers have any concept of how big a give away no tap is to good scratch bowlers who can usually hit the pocket at will when they don't have to worry about carry.   
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 01:52:07 PM by avabob »

Brickguy221

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2015, 01:47:00 PM »
A poster in the BBE forum posted the following to ITZPS's topic ... The 170 average bowler's biggest disadvantage is their lack of ability to convert spares. This is something you are going to find the 200+ average bowlers have locked down pretty well.(Regardless of the shot)

Gotta nail down those easy single pin spares, as an open frame is a huge loss of scoring potential. 


I have to agree with him. For example, my average is down and the worse it has been for  years .... and I am missing spares worse than I have been in years.

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Monster Pike

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2015, 07:00:22 PM »
I'll have to say it benefits all bowlers averages in general.  But probably benefits the medium average bowlers more so.  The lower averages will still bowl just as bad, maybe have a little more luck than they already get.  The good bowlers will still make really good shots, pick up all of their spares, etc...  But the medium bowlers who are decent enough, will still make the shots they normally get plus a lot more luck/carry than they are accustomed when they are close to pocket because the shot became easier...  Just my take.

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bowler231

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2015, 09:09:38 PM »
I will say from my experiences with some of the house wonders in my area that as soon as you put some oil down they crumble like cookies. I am a high 180's to mid 190's average bowler and I have lined up many times against the house kings on a flooded house or sport pattern tournament and totally killed them or bowled dead even to them. They can't bowl if the can't bounce the shot and get the carry they are used too. Throw super hard, crank it, messenger, coast to coast on a house shot. Wash out on a difficult shot. I'm not saying all. There a more than a few truly talented bowlers in my area that can hit the shot but most of the chest pumping kings have epic fails. I bowl on a difficult house pattern on Wednesday nights. When the league first started the shot was hard to hit. Even some of the 200 plus average bowlers that were used to scoring 600 series every week where barely hitting 580's it didn't take long for the bowling center to change the shot because of all the complaining. I was actually loving it. I would go practice twice a week and had bowled a few 600's myself. My ball speed is slower so I love oil I just need to work on my spare shooting. 10 pins kill me. :'(

jlabargo

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2015, 08:40:57 AM »
Bowling scratch? Absolutely not.

Unless you throw a completely straight ball that doesn't hook whatsoever, easier scoring conditions limit the advantage that better players have, since the max score is still 300.

Now in a handicap event on a tough shot, you are correct. But a 170 average that hooks the ball will not average 170 in a Sport league. No chance.


I would also like to point out that I used "better players" and not "high average players"
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 08:46:36 AM by jlabargo »

LookingForALeftyWall

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2015, 11:20:42 AM »
A poster in the BBE forum posted the following to ITZPS's topic ... The 170 average bowler's biggest disadvantage is their lack of ability to convert spares. This is something you are going to find the 200+ average bowlers have locked down pretty well.(Regardless of the shot)

Gotta nail down those easy single pin spares, as an open frame is a huge loss of scoring potential. 


I have to agree with him. For example, my average is down and the worse it has been for  years .... and I am missing spares worse than I have been in years.



Using myself and my teammate as a sample size (too small really for an overwhelmingly effective argument), I respectfully disagree.  On a wide open walled house shot, I am averaging 220 because I can string strikes.  According to my PinPal app, I am only converting 63% of all spares and 76% of single pin spares - which is awful.  I have been awful and I am not indicative of "200+ average bowlers have (spare shooting) locked down pretty well.(Regardless of the shot)".

In addition, I have a teammate who averages 165, who shoots spares better than I do.  Her problem is getting no carry whatsoever with slow ball speed, few revs, and using a 13 pound ball.  So I do not believe that all 170 average bowlers can't shoot spares well.  You cannot generalize in this way.

I will not debate who has a higher benefit on an easier shot as there are way too many variables that go into an individual bowler's game (both physical and mental).  Personally, I will say that it definitely helps me as I've scored well despite being horrible at shooting spares this year.

avabob

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2015, 11:26:22 AM »
It is really all about how much you hook the ball.  No matter how accurate you are hooking the ball, flatter patterns hurt the power player more than the straighter player.  Conversely THS helps the power player more than the straighter player because it give the power players carry advantage a chance to dominate. 

Good example in my sport league last night.  I bowled against a very good younger high rev guy on the 43 foot Tokyo pattern.  Transition carrydown hurt us both, but over the course of 4 games I was able to find a ball and straighter angle to the hole to prevail.  Last quarter we bowled on a 35 foot LA pattern.  We both bowled great, but he edged me out by finding a place he could play some out angle on the shorter pattern.  On the pair next to us a decent young power player shot very good on the 43 foot pattern, but absolutely died on the 35 foot pattern. 

Bottom line, a lot of it is about the length of the pattern, more so than the right to left taper.  I know a lot of house guys who can really whack one sport pattern because the length of the oil matches up to them.  On shorter or longer patterns they are lost because they simply don't have the versatility to hit the different lengths.

Another thing to keep in mind is that they didn't call the early crank era strike or no count for no reason.  Remember any time you throw a strike it is one less spare a bad spare shooter has to convert.  I remember, in the early days of short oil, bowling a 6 game block with 4 opens, and losing by 100 pins to a guy with 10 opens.  My slow speed stroker style made carry percentage terrible for me, while young crankers were ending 4 baggers with designer splits or blown 10 pins.   Since then the high level scratch power players have improved their spare shooting quite a bit by using plastic balls and throwing very hard and straight.   
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 11:34:28 AM by avabob »

bowler231

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2015, 02:40:40 PM »
It is really all about how much you hook the ball.  No matter how accurate you are hooking the ball, flatter patterns hurt the power player more than the straighter player.  Conversely THS helps the power player more than the straighter player because it give the power players carry advantage a chance to dominate.



This is exactly what I was trying to say. From my personal experience I have seen many of the power players in my area that get unbelievable carry by banking the shot. Messengers galore. They pump their chest with all the greatness running off them. But when the oil is heavy they can't get the ball to the pocket and hooking into the left hand spares is out of the question. Most of all they can't regulate their speed enough that is comfortable for them. Accuracy is gone. I bowl with a high tilt about 20* and my ball speed is about 15mph so the house shot kills me coming off the dry too violently because I have moderate revs with the tilt. On a sport shot I can through my most aggressive equipment and I learned to throw straight at spares. It helps because I don't leave as many 10 pins. Most times I can bowl within 10-15 pins scratch of the mega wonders on a sport shot if not even beat them. Now when they walk around pumping their chest wanting pot bowl all takers I say" ok put a 45ft sport shot out". You can hear crickets chirping.

avabob

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2015, 09:38:03 PM »
Most tournaments I have bowled over the past 7 or 8 years have been on tournament patterns, and I have tried to build my game and arsenal around the flatter patterns.  One of the first things I discovered was that I too carried better on flat patterns than I did on house patterns about half the time.  Same reason as you stated.  I am a low to medium speed stroker who cant keep the ball straight enough on house shots. Sometimes the breakpoint works and sometimes it doesn't.  I have certainly shot a lot more 300s on house shots, and don't remember ever shooting an 800 on a tournament pattern.  I still think a high rev rate ( something I don't have) is an advantage on any pattern, but it should be accompanied by low axis rotation.  Having to go away from the pocket too much is a problem no matter how accurate your release is. 

ITZPS

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2015, 07:04:27 AM »
I can't stand house shots myself, but anytime I go to bowl something where the shot is wide open, I know the handicapper is going to have their day just like anybody else.  However, the easier the shot, the better I feel about being able to go 250+ with a lot more frequency than a 170 average is going to shoot over 200.  If they average 170, I just don't believe you can get a shot easy enough to make a real difference, because whether it's not stringing strikes or not making spares, they aren't good enough to notice or take advantage of the conditions.  You give me a 220 average bowler and a 170 average bowler, and a super easy shot, even if you handicap 100% of the difference between their averages, I'll take the higher average every time.  Make the shot tougher?  The 170 average isn't going to notice or take near as big of a hit as the 220 average. 
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xman868

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2015, 04:26:13 PM »
IMHO House shots give the less polished player a reason to think he can compete with someone that has actually practiced and tried to improve his skillset to a level higher than league can provide. Much like handicap. There is a level of competence required on house patterns also, but nothing like what would be required on a US Open pattern for example.

I spoke with PBA HOF George Pappas who owns a couple of centers in North Carolina. He let me know that the only reason that he puts down house patterns is because the masses will flock to where the scores are easiest. Bad business decision to not compete from a financial standpoint.

He did however add that competitive bowling(tournaments) should be played in an environment where execution and repetition should be rewarded. How many times have you seen the 230+ house guy that cant negotiate even the easiest challenge patterns? Or my personal favorite; "the guys on tour aren't that good, they only averaged 215 on the Badger.LMAO

avabob

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2015, 10:15:55 PM »
It's really all about versatility. You have to repeat shots to average 230 on a house shot. Bowling on a variety of length patterns tells who is versatile enough to compete

Monster Pike

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2015, 12:43:31 AM »
It's really all about versatility. You have to repeat shots to average 230 on a house shot. Bowling on a variety of length patterns tells who is versatile enough to compete

That's why a high average bowler will still have his high average on an "easy conditions" but the tier just below them (upper middle avgs.) will find more "luck" & "carry" while not being as consistent repeating their shots on that easy condition.  As long as they are close, they'll probably shoot higher on the "easier condition", thus benefitting them more so than the higher avg. bowler.  Just my take.  No scientific study to back it, just my sound logic, common sense, & ultimate natural knowledge of most things...  ;) ;D :P
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 12:45:06 AM by Monster Pike »