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Author Topic: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?  (Read 8551 times)

ITZPS

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Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« on: April 06, 2015, 09:34:45 AM »
I believe at one time I argued the opposite, but I really think the easier the shot is, the more it benefits higher average or better bowlers.  While you'll have your 170-200 average bowler have a nice game or set here or there, if you have a scratch bowler that can consistently hit 2-3 boards, and they have 5 or 6, in the long run, the lower average bowler really has no chance.  You take that 230 average bowler and put them on a shot that requires them to hit the same 2 boards every shot, and that average will fall quite a bit more than the 170-200 average bowler will.  A 170 average bowler will be about the same on virtually anything.  They aren't consistent enough to take advantage of a shot no matter how easy it is, which also dilutes the challenge of a tougher shot. 

Could enough of a case be made to the lower average bowler, which represents the vast majority of USBC members and league bowlers, to trend more towards tougher shots?  Probably not, but the thought is nice.  However, usually anything that benefits someone will immediately pique their interest.  You would have to think they would get quite a bit of enjoyment out of seeing the high and mighty primadonnas frustrated with shooting 200 or less on occasion.  Yes the lower averages would still see a hit on their averages, but where the answer has normally been more handicap, it gets to a point where handicap obviously becomes unfair in one direction or the other, and will never move much no matter how much you argue about it.  Thoughts?
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2015, 09:46:49 AM »
My general thought is that the cream will rise to the top regardless of lane condition.

That being said, if the question is.....does an easier shot BENEFIT a higher average bowler, I would say no b/c their edge has been reduced by allowing lower average bowlers to hit the pocket on a more consistent basis.  When everyone is able to get to the pocket easier (on an easier condition) the "carry contest" factor increases.  And while I will always take the more talented players, even in a carry contest, I believe that an easier shot doesn't benefit them for the reason previously stated. 

JMO
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Jorge300

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2015, 09:58:11 AM »
My thought is an easier shot benefits the lower average bowler's more then the higher average bowlers.
 
If you have a bowler who is a legitimate 230+ on THS, and by that I mean someone who can average 205-210 consistently on tougher shots as well, they aren't gaining as much advantage as the lower average bowler on THS. The legitmate 180 average bowler, can average 200-220 on THS. They are gaining more pins then the higher average bowler usually. Plus, depending on the shot layed out, the higher average bowler gets penalized on THS by being consistent, as the oil disappears quicker from the small area they are playing, while the lower average bowler who is using the 5-7 boards they have will not have that happen. All in all, there are more advantages on easier shot for the lower average bowler and thus it earns them more benefit then the higher average bowler.
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Steven

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2015, 10:10:44 AM »
I don't agree with your premise of what happens to the higher vs. lower skilled bowlers on tougher Sport/PBA shots.
 
Everyone takes a hit, but my experience is that lower skilled bowlers take more of one. The 230 THS average bowlers will go down into the 190-205 range. They'll still make most of their convertible spares, but they'll leave more crap (washouts, big 4's, etc), and have fewer strings.  The sub-200 THS average bowlers will generally be completely lost. In general, the flatter oil takes their required outside bump away, and they don't know how to adjust. Their hook shot at spares that works on the THS completely disappears. It's not unusual to see averages drop down into the 140-150 range. Actually, it's not much difference than the shock you see at Nationals.
 
Again, I'm just describing what I'm seeing in my certified sport shot league. Maybe compromising toward some of the easier Kegel shots some of the less demanding USBC Red/White/Blue patterns would accomplish what you're suggesting.         

Jorge300

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2015, 10:13:46 AM »
I agree with you, but this thread is about going the other way, bowling on easier patterns, not sports patterns. Reading is a......well you know the rest. :)


I don't agree with your premise of what happens to the higher vs. lower skilled bowlers on tougher Sport/PBA shots.
 
Everyone takes a hit, but my experience is that lower skilled bowlers take more of one. The 230 THS average bowlers will go down into the 190-205 range. They'll still make most of their convertible spares, but they'll leave more crap (washouts, big 4's, etc), and have fewer strings.  The sub-200 THS average bowlers will generally be completely lost. In general, the flatter oil takes their required outside bump away, and they don't know how to adjust. Their hook shot at spares that works on the THS completely disappears. It's not unusual to see averages drop down into the 140-150 range. Actually, it's not much difference than the shock you see at Nationals.
 
Again, I'm just describing what I'm seeing in my certified sport shot league. Maybe compromising toward some of the easier Kegel shots some of the less demanding USBC Red/White/Blue patterns would accomplish what you're suggesting.         
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JustRico

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2015, 10:21:44 AM »
Easier conditions for the most part generally benefit the less consistent (ball speed and direction) competitor....they have more room for error that isn't previlent on the tougher conditions...also most easier conditions allow the black jack mentality...stand on 20 and hit 10...when you eliminate a path the lesser skilled competitor is unaware of where the play compared to the more skilled that understands ball their ball reaction and/or motion
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Steven

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2015, 10:29:39 AM »
I agree with you, but this thread is about going the other way, bowling on easier patterns, not sports patterns. Reading is a......well you know the rest. :)


The OP seems to be talking about 230 THS average bowlers vs. 170-200 THS average bowlers, and what happens (relatively speaking) when you "put them on a shot that requires them to hit the same 2 boards every shot".
 
Yea, we know well about "reading". That's what I read from the OP. If I misread, then my apologies.     

Track_Fanatic

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2015, 10:41:35 AM »
I bowl better in a sport shot than I do on a typical house shot.

Ken De Beasto

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2015, 10:45:39 AM »
I bowl better in a sport shot than I do on a typical house shot.
+1 for me too wen I bowl league or ez shot I don't really focus I'm just there to chill. But wen that sport shot comes its time to focuss

Pinbuster

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2015, 10:47:17 AM »
Depending on the contest I would tend to agree with the op.

Many mid average bowlers around here don't know how to play the THS. They stand a point A, try to hit point B, and play relatively straight. Lane condition does not effect them as much as the higher average bowler relying on some room to string strikes.

So the difference between their averages shrinks giving the lower average bowler a little better chance to beat the higher average.

In a scratch situation the higher advantage bowler probably stills has a large advantage. And the longer the format the bigger the advantage becomes. 

Going to an extreme. I know in no tap formats all the mid range bowlers are excited because they think of the single pin spares they miss. But in reality the high average bowler dominates because if they don't have to worry about carry and only about hitting the pocket they get 9 virtually every time.

I don't like carry contests. A bad break at the wrong times can doom you.

So many worry about the person they feel has an inferior game to them but appears to have the world to score. But in reality in many cases someone is feeling the same way about you as well.

ITZPS

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2015, 11:01:09 AM »
I might be making too broad a generalization too . . I suppose it depends more on how good the 230 average bowler is.  If they're a typically inflated 230, where their average falls to 200 or below on tougher conditions, no, I don't think they'll have an advantage. 

I follow the logic that if bowler A is consistent to 2-3 boards on every shot, and bowler B is consistent to 4-5 boards every shot, that if you are bowling on something that gives you any more than 5 boards, you're going to wind up being generally equal.  However, logically I'd also give the spare edge to the 2-3 board bowler, though that doesn't play much into it if you have 5 boards to aim at. 

Had something happen recently that at least popped the thought into my head.  Maybe the better bowler will win or do better the majority of the time no matter what, maybe it's not limited to house shots, or maybe I'm not considering enough variables.  I suppose the thought I had was that I've seen higher average bowlers on multiple occasions go on streaks for a month or two where they're absolutely untouchable, and I've never seen that out of a lower average bowler.  Usually they pop something huge in one week and then go back to nothing the next. 

Or maybe I worded it wrong, maybe I feel like the ceiling for the higher average bowler is higher the easier the shot gets . .
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2015, 11:08:49 AM »
ITZPS, also don't discount the amount of "touch" and speed control that naturally talented players have.....that plays a factor (in addition to accuracy).

Those things add up a lot over the long-term.
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trash heap

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2015, 12:11:18 PM »
So many worry about the person they feel has an inferior game to them but appears to have the world to score. But in reality in many cases someone is feeling the same way about you as well.

This is so true.

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avabob

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2015, 12:12:26 PM »
First off, I don't think it necessarily correct to call house shots easier in the sense they reward inconsistency.  All patterns reward players who can repeat shots over those who cannot, whether it is a flat tourney pattern or a walled up house shot. 

What house shots really reward is a more specialized release ( higher rev and more axis rotation ).  Tour players or those competing in sport leagues need versatility in their games to deal with patterns that can range in length from 30 to 50 feet. 

As a guy who prides himself in having versatility, I can still average high on house shot, but my carry is often not consistent enough to out average guys who I can beat on a 35 foot flatter pattern, or a 52 foot Badger. 

I guess that brings up a question I have asked many times.  If a guy can beat me by 10 pins a game on a 40 foot house shot, but I can beat him by 10 per game on a 35 foot tourney pattern, who is better.  The only real answer is who is better over a range of conditions.  I bowled a kid for our league championship who I know can beat me badly on  house shot.  In the championship we were bowling on the USBC pattern from last season.  He also thrashed me on that pattern after they opened up.  However, we recently bowled on the 35 foot LA pattern.  It played like a house shot off the corner for me, but this kid couldn't come within 20 pins per game of me on this shot. 

Bottom line the cream really does come to the top, but it takes a lot longer for that to happen than any of us often believe.  In that respect I don't think there is an answer to the original question of who benefits more from a house shot.   

todvan

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Re: Easier shots benefit higher avg bowlers, yes or no?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2015, 01:07:09 PM »
I think there are different kinds of 170-200 average bowlers.  Some that make most of their spares, but don't throw a strike ball that carries very well.  Others will be  stronger with the strike shot, but more inconsistent in targeting, so make fewer spares.

Both average about the same, but the inconsistent targeting bowler benefits more from the easier shot and will struggle more on the difficult condition.

Just my 2 cents...
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