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Author Topic: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days  (Read 8192 times)

ITZPS

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High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« on: February 05, 2015, 09:39:48 AM »
I have a Storm/Roto Matchmaker coming up this next Tuesday night, and was counting on a fairly large turnout from HS bowlers who are at the midpoint of their season, and not too far away from getting ready for regionals and state.  However, I was informed yesterday that none of them could attend because the state HS board told them it could be construed as outside coaching, which would be a violation of the rules and subject them to disciplinary action.  I personally feel this is completely ridiculous.  Under the same "rules," they would also be banned from coming in to purchase equipment, because I would be "coaching" them on what ball to get, layout, bag selection, accessories, etc.  I've had several new bowlers come in with hand me down balls who are grippers, and I've had to "coach" them on how to hold the ball properly and how to release it, is that against the rules too? 

I know it's not my place, but I'm not sure if the state board really knows the details of what is going on.  Seeing as how I stand to lose quite a bit of business because they don't understand what's going on, I'm a tad miffed.  What is the proper course of action here?  Usually for me that involves keeping my mouth shut . . but I had prepared for this based on the number of commitments, which now has been dropped significantly less than a week before the event based on nothing but passive ignorance in my mind. 
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chrisleftwich

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2015, 09:42:07 AM »
Only in Kansas.......
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kidlost2000

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2015, 09:48:35 AM »
Tell them its a sales seminar. No different then trade shows ect.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

trash heap

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2015, 10:04:05 AM »
Do you mean "outside competition"?

I found this in the KANSAS STATE HIGH SCHOOL ACTIVITIES ASSOCIATION handbook.

Quote
Rule 22 OUTSIDE COMPETITION
Violation of this rule shall make a student ineligible for the remainder of that sport or scholars’ bowl or debate season, unless he or she is reinstated by the Executive Board.

Section 1: General Regulations (apply to grades 7-12)

Art. 1: A student who is a member of a school athletic, scholars’ bowl or debate squad effective Tuesday following Labor Day through Friday preceding Memorial Day may not participate as a member of an outside team or as an independent competitor in the same sport, scholars’ bowl or debate activity. (Exception: See Rule 4, United States Olympic Committee-Sponsored National Trials and Competitions.)

NOTE: Informal participation on the part of the student athlete, such as that experienced on the black top (concrete), in the park, local “Y”, etc., is not considered a violation of this rule, provided it was not formally called or organized, no coaching takes place, where no official score is kept, time kept, officials used, etc. Intra non-school youth group athletic participation is not considered a violation of this rule. Inter non-school youth group athletic participation is a violation.

Art. 2: A student shall not be prohibited from competing on a special team within his or her own school such as an FFA team, etc. All members of such teams must be bona fide students, however, and eligible under the rules of the Association.

Art. 3: A student becomes a member of a school’s athletic squad, scholars’ bowl or debate team when he or she first participates in a practice session.

A student ceases to be a squad member after his or her last contest for the school’s athletic squad, scholars’ bowl or debate team or when the membership on a squad is
terminated. (See Rule 14-1-1, Bona Fide Student and Rule 30-2-2, Seasons of Activities.)

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Jorge300

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2015, 10:16:10 AM »
How can this be true?
 
This means a baseball player can't go to a batting cage during the season? So Kansas feels all high school athletes get all the coaching they need from their respective school coaches? Really?!? I thought the idea of high school was to prepare students to move on, either to college or to a career. Shouldn't that be the same of high school atheltics? SO why restrict them to only getting "coaching" from the school coach? Do they restrict regular students from getting a tutor or help in a subject they might be struggling with? This would be the dumbest rule I have ever seen if true.
 
That being said, I would have thought you would have checked something like this before scheduling the event. High School athletics have a strict rulebook (although this one seems overly so) and if you were getting interest from a lot of high school bowlers, I would have made this call prior to agreeing to anything, just to be safe. I could see them potentially having an issue, but not for the reasons given.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 10:28:36 AM by Jorge300 »
Jorge300

itsallaboutme

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2015, 10:26:10 AM »
Unfortunately there is probably no chance of getting an official clarification in the next 5 days, but better it came to light now than after the fact and the kids were facing disciplinary action.

ITZPS

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2015, 10:43:21 AM »
I didn't schedule the event based on the high school bowlers, I already have a decent sized group coming, and the regional Storm rep was already going to be in the area, so it worked out.  I just thought it happened to be a great time to get a lot of the high school bowlers to come out, as quite a few of them actually don't bowl league otherwise and would therefore have no reason to buy equipment any other time of the year.  It never came close to entering my mind that they wouldn't be able to participate. 

How can this be true?
 
This means a baseball player can't go to a batting cage during the season? So Kansas feels all high school athletes get all the coaching they need from their respective school coaches? Really?!? I thought the idea of high school was to prepare students to move on, either to college or to a career. Shouldn't that be the same of high school atheltics? SO why restrict them to only getting "coaching" from the school coach? Do they restrict regular students from getting a tutor or help in a subject they might be struggling with? This would be the dumbest rule I have ever seen if true.
 
That being said, I would have thought you would have checked something like this before scheduling the event. High School athletics have a strict rulebook (although this one seems overly so) and if you were getting interest from a lot of high school bowlers, I would have made this call prior to agreeing to anything, just to be safe. I could see them potentially having an issue, but not for the reasons given.
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ITZPS

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2015, 10:46:26 AM »
Most likely, though that's not specifically the way it was communicated to me.  Throwing some bowling balls at a demo comes nowhere close to falling within these restrictions though.  It would be like a golfer swinging clubs before they bought them or a baseball player swinging a bat. 

Do you mean "outside competition"?

I found this in the KANSAS STATE HIGH SCHOOL ACTIVITIES ASSOCIATION handbook.

Quote
Rule 22 OUTSIDE COMPETITION
Violation of this rule shall make a student ineligible for the remainder of that sport or scholars’ bowl or debate season, unless he or she is reinstated by the Executive Board.

Section 1: General Regulations (apply to grades 7-12)

Art. 1: A student who is a member of a school athletic, scholars’ bowl or debate squad effective Tuesday following Labor Day through Friday preceding Memorial Day may not participate as a member of an outside team or as an independent competitor in the same sport, scholars’ bowl or debate activity. (Exception: See Rule 4, United States Olympic Committee-Sponsored National Trials and Competitions.)

NOTE: Informal participation on the part of the student athlete, such as that experienced on the black top (concrete), in the park, local “Y”, etc., is not considered a violation of this rule, provided it was not formally called or organized, no coaching takes place, where no official score is kept, time kept, officials used, etc. Intra non-school youth group athletic participation is not considered a violation of this rule. Inter non-school youth group athletic participation is a violation.

Art. 2: A student shall not be prohibited from competing on a special team within his or her own school such as an FFA team, etc. All members of such teams must be bona fide students, however, and eligible under the rules of the Association.

Art. 3: A student becomes a member of a school’s athletic squad, scholars’ bowl or debate team when he or she first participates in a practice session.

A student ceases to be a squad member after his or her last contest for the school’s athletic squad, scholars’ bowl or debate team or when the membership on a squad is
terminated. (See Rule 14-1-1, Bona Fide Student and Rule 30-2-2, Seasons of Activities.)
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trash heap

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2015, 10:47:36 AM »
I am trying to think why they would have this rule.

What if the kid is in a USBC Youth League? That seems to me would be a violation.



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milorafferty

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2015, 10:49:18 AM »
I didn't schedule the event based on the high school bowlers, I already have a decent sized group coming, and the regional Storm rep was already going to be in the area, so it worked out.  I just thought it happened to be a great time to get a lot of the high school bowlers to come out, as quite a few of them actually don't bowl league otherwise and would therefore have no reason to buy equipment any other time of the year.  It never came close to entering my mind that they wouldn't be able to participate. 

How can this be true?
 
This means a baseball player can't go to a batting cage during the season? So Kansas feels all high school athletes get all the coaching they need from their respective school coaches? Really?!? I thought the idea of high school was to prepare students to move on, either to college or to a career. Shouldn't that be the same of high school atheltics? SO why restrict them to only getting "coaching" from the school coach? Do they restrict regular students from getting a tutor or help in a subject they might be struggling with? This would be the dumbest rule I have ever seen if true.
 
That being said, I would have thought you would have checked something like this before scheduling the event. High School athletics have a strict rulebook (although this one seems overly so) and if you were getting interest from a lot of high school bowlers, I would have made this call prior to agreeing to anything, just to be safe. I could see them potentially having an issue, but not for the reasons given.

So no HS athletes are allow to go to the many Basketball, Football and Baseball camps held each summer? Or is this just something for bowlers?
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ITZPS

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2015, 10:53:09 AM »
Very true.  From what everyone is saying, now I realize I should have checked or cleared it before I started promoting it to them, should have really gone through the coaches first actually . . but the coaches send their kids into the shop all the time to talk to me about everything under the sun, so I don't feel I had any reason to believe a demo would be a no-no.  My wife always tells me that for as much time as I spend thinking about stuff, I'm still pretty dumb, and I think she's right . .

Unfortunately there is probably no chance of getting an official clarification in the next 5 days, but better it came to light now than after the fact and the kids were facing disciplinary action.
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ITZPS

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2015, 10:55:13 AM »
Yes, the kids aren't allowed to bowl youth league or any kind of other tournament while HS is going on, so most of them pre bowl for the weeks they are going to miss before the season starts.  They are allowed to do anything outside of the official school season, but during the actual season, apparently the rules are really strict. 

I am trying to think why they would have this rule.

What if the kid is in a USBC Youth League? That seems to me would be a violation.
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ITZPS

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2015, 10:58:07 AM »
They can do whatever they want during the "off season," the restrictions just apply during the season, I just didn't realize the restrictions were this aggressive.  We just went through 4 years of this, my daughter just graduated last May, so I'm familiar with how it all works.  Just never had a demo during the season before so it never came up, and with as much as I've done to help in the past, this doesn't make any sense. 

I didn't schedule the event based on the high school bowlers, I already have a decent sized group coming, and the regional Storm rep was already going to be in the area, so it worked out.  I just thought it happened to be a great time to get a lot of the high school bowlers to come out, as quite a few of them actually don't bowl league otherwise and would therefore have no reason to buy equipment any other time of the year.  It never came close to entering my mind that they wouldn't be able to participate. 

How can this be true?
 
This means a baseball player can't go to a batting cage during the season? So Kansas feels all high school athletes get all the coaching they need from their respective school coaches? Really?!? I thought the idea of high school was to prepare students to move on, either to college or to a career. Shouldn't that be the same of high school atheltics? SO why restrict them to only getting "coaching" from the school coach? Do they restrict regular students from getting a tutor or help in a subject they might be struggling with? This would be the dumbest rule I have ever seen if true.
 
That being said, I would have thought you would have checked something like this before scheduling the event. High School athletics have a strict rulebook (although this one seems overly so) and if you were getting interest from a lot of high school bowlers, I would have made this call prior to agreeing to anything, just to be safe. I could see them potentially having an issue, but not for the reasons given.

So no HS athletes are allow to go to the many Basketball, Football and Baseball camps held each summer? Or is this just something for bowlers?
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Jorge300

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2015, 10:59:57 AM »
Now that is just stupid. We were allowed to bowl in youth leagues, particpate in any tournament, we just couldn't participate in anything where money was won. In fact, we had a monthly tournament centered around high school bowlers. It was an "under 21" tournament. It traveled around to different houses in the area, even some we would never get to bowl in probably otherwise. It gave trophies or plaques to the winners. It was about bragging rights mainly. Some one needs to have a serious talk with the school board and abolish this stupid rule ASAP.



Yes, the kids aren't allowed to bowl youth league or any kind of other tournament while HS is going on, so most of them pre bowl for the weeks they are going to miss before the season starts.  They are allowed to do anything outside of the official school season, but during the actual season, apparently the rules are really strict. 

I am trying to think why they would have this rule.

What if the kid is in a USBC Youth League? That seems to me would be a violation.
Jorge300

trash heap

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Re: High School bowlers banned from Matchmakers/Demo Days
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2015, 11:00:36 AM »
Most likely, though that's not specifically the way it was communicated to me.  Throwing some bowling balls at a demo comes nowhere close to falling within these restrictions though.  It would be like a golfer swinging clubs before they bought them or a baseball player swinging a bat. 

Get the clarification. People read rules and interpret them incorrectly all the time. I searched through the handbook and this section was only thing I could find relating your scenario.


 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 11:02:43 AM by trash heap »
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