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Author Topic: Motiv website  (Read 13825 times)

12XSECH

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Motiv website
« on: March 23, 2016, 03:42:06 PM »
The info for the jackals was supposed to be up today...just checked and nothing.

 

avabob

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2016, 03:18:15 PM »
If you test many balls, it should be apparent that variations of the magnitude at issue are pretty common in the production run of any company.  Rules are rules, but even in the most absolute sense there should be a materiality consideration.   It would be interesting to see the minimum amount of change in differential  that would produce a change in measurable track flare when thrown by a test machine.  My guess is that it would be significantly more than the variances in production balls manufactured to a targeted specification.   

mike300

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2016, 04:05:48 PM »
If the balls being tested are illegal, no matter by how much, they have to be removed from competition immediately.  If I foul by 1/1000 of an inch is it ok?  Clearly there would be no advantage gained by doing so.  If my ball is 1/8th of an ounce over 16 pounds is it ok?  Clearly that 1/8th of an ounce would be of no advantage.  You see where I'm going with this, there are hard numbers that need to be followed, not almost followed.

s_hemker

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2016, 04:16:34 PM »
If the balls being tested are illegal, no matter by how much, they have to be removed from competition immediately.  If I foul by 1/1000 of an inch is it ok?  Clearly there would be no advantage gained by doing so.  If my ball is 1/8th of an ounce over 16 pounds is it ok?  Clearly that 1/8th of an ounce would be of no advantage.  You see where I'm going with this, there are hard numbers that need to be followed, not almost followed.

If you foul by 1/1000 of an inch (a Jackal) and it is a foul but the guy next to you fouls by 1 inch but isn't a foul (any OTHER ball with a DIFF over .060 that is "Grandfathered in") how is it fair that your foul counts and his doesn't?

Yes, dumb argument but considering these two have been banned but others with the same core (Jackal Pro, Sapphire Jackal, Raptor Series) are still allowed completely baffles me.

avabob

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2016, 07:48:46 PM »
Mike:  How about if you foul by .001 inch and your foul light detects it, while the guy on the also fouls by .001 inch and his foul light doesn't detect it. Not visually verifiable on either case but you get the foul.

cory867

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2016, 09:18:44 PM »
If the balls being tested are illegal, no matter by how much, they have to be removed from competition immediately.  If I foul by 1/1000 of an inch is it ok?  Clearly there would be no advantage gained by doing so.  If my ball is 1/8th of an ounce over 16 pounds is it ok?  Clearly that 1/8th of an ounce would be of no advantage.  You see where I'm going with this, there are hard numbers that need to be followed, not almost followed.

If you foul by 1/1000 of an inch (a Jackal) and it is a foul but the guy next to you fouls by 1 inch but isn't a foul (any OTHER ball with a DIFF over .060 that is "Grandfathered in") how is it fair that your foul counts and his doesn't?

Yes, dumb argument but considering these two have been banned but others with the same core (Jackal Pro, Sapphire Jackal, Raptor Series) are still allowed completely baffles me.

You are right, BAN them all!!!
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12XSECH

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2016, 07:41:29 AM »
You can't compare a foul to a manufacturer issue. Is every foul called in the NBA? All manufacturers have a variance in products.  1/1000th is almost not measurable. It's less then the thickness of a human hair. Remember...the Usbc are the ones who gave the approval in the first place.

Aloarjr810

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2016, 08:36:51 AM »
If you foul by 1/1000 of an inch (a Jackal) and it is a foul but the guy next to you fouls by 1 inch but isn't a foul (any OTHER ball with a DIFF over .060 that is "Grandfathered in") how is it fair that your foul counts and his doesn't?

Your analogy is flawed because its based on the guys playing side by side which would mean they are playing under the same rules. Which is not the case with the balls.

The old balls were grandfathered in because the rules were changed after they had been approved, So were not penalized for violating a rule that didn't exist at the time.

The Jackals were banned because they violated the existing rules.





« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 08:39:10 AM by Aloarjr810 »
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mike300

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2016, 01:12:24 PM »
Mike:  How about if you foul by .001 inch and your foul light detects it, while the guy on the also fouls by .001 inch and his foul light doesn't detect it. Not visually verifiable on either case but you get the foul.
A foul is a foul, if the foul lights are not operating properly and you foul it is still a foul, obviously someone would have to see it to call it and there might be an argument but it should still be a foul.  Unless you are of the opinion that "he only fouled by a little bit, why should that be enforced, there was no advantage gained".

s_hemker

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2016, 01:33:49 PM »
If you foul by 1/1000 of an inch (a Jackal) and it is a foul but the guy next to you fouls by 1 inch but isn't a foul (any OTHER ball with a DIFF over .060 that is "Grandfathered in") how is it fair that your foul counts and his doesn't?

Your analogy is flawed because its based on the guys playing side by side which would mean they are playing under the same rules. Which is not the case with the balls.

The old balls were grandfathered in because the rules were changed after they had been approved, So were not penalized for violating a rule that didn't exist at the time.

The Jackals were banned because they violated the existing rules.







Tell me every other ball in the Jackal and Raptor line with the same core was produced after the rule chage right? Why are those legal and these two not? Also, who cares if the older balls are ok because they are "grandfathered in" name another sport tha has a rule change for equipment specifications but still allows that equipment specification to be broken just because it was produced earlier.

My point here is that the USBC made a poor choice. Motiv is in the wrong don't twist my words but tell does the average bowler need to suffer because of a companies issue? Especially when said specification does not give any kind of competitive advantage.

Aloarjr810

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2016, 02:21:32 PM »

Tell me every other ball in the Jackal and Raptor line with the same core was produced after the rule chage right?
Yes

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Why are those legal and these two not?

Because those balls weren't brought into question and retested, They may well be retested in the future, they may not. But until that happens they are still approved for use.

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Also, who cares if the older balls are ok because they are "grandfathered in"

Who cares about the older "grandfathered in" balls, you do. You brought them up in your analogy.

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name another sport tha has a rule change for equipment specifications but still allows that equipment specification to be broken just because it was produced earlier.

As for other sports, it doesn't matter what they do. Bowling operates under bowling rules.


Quote
My point here is that the USBC made a poor choice. Motiv is in the wrong don't twist my words but tell does the average bowler need to suffer because of a companies issue? Especially when said specification does not give any kind of competitive advantage.

As for whether the USBC and Motiv made good or bad choices, everyone has a different opinion and time will tell if the decisions made were the right ones.

As for the average bowler "suffering" from this, unless that was the only ball a bowler had their not suffering squat.

The average bowler has multiple balls and if the Jackals specification does not give any kind of competitive advantage. Then any comparable ball can be use in place of the Jackals.

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12XSECH

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2016, 02:30:02 PM »
The usbc is like a paper tiger...For years they have done next to nothing except lose millions of sanctioned bowlers. They fine the most minuscule "violation" and they jump on it faster then hillary clinton can tell another lie.  Their true colors are finally being shown. And who is paying for it? Us, the bowlers. I have a non usbc sanctioned tournament coming up...I'm using the Jackal.....F the usbc.

Good Times Good Times

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2016, 02:37:59 PM »
The usbc is like a paper tiger...For years they have done next to nothing except lose millions of sanctioned bowlers. They fine the most minuscule "violation" and they jump on it faster then hillary clinton can tell another lie.  Their true colors are finally being shown. And who is paying for it? Us, the bowlers. I have a non usbc sanctioned tournament coming up...I'm using the Jackal.....F the usbc.

Out of curiosity, are you going to get a sanction card next season?
GTx2

psycaz

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2016, 02:38:26 PM »
If you foul by 1/1000 of an inch (a Jackal) and it is a foul but the guy next to you fouls by 1 inch but isn't a foul (any OTHER ball with a DIFF over .060 that is "Grandfathered in") how is it fair that your foul counts and his doesn't?

Your analogy is flawed because its based on the guys playing side by side which would mean they are playing under the same rules. Which is not the case with the balls.

The old balls were grandfathered in because the rules were changed after they had been approved, So were not penalized for violating a rule that didn't exist at the time.

The Jackals were banned because they violated the existing rules.







Tell me every other ball in the Jackal and Raptor line with the same core was produced after the rule chage right? Why are those legal and these two not? Also, who cares if the older balls are ok because they are "grandfathered in" name another sport tha has a rule change for equipment specifications but still allows that equipment specification to be broken just because it was produced earlier.

My point here is that the USBC made a poor choice. Motiv is in the wrong don't twist my words but tell does the average bowler need to suffer because of a companies issue? Especially when said specification does not give any kind of competitive advantage.

I'm sure if those other ball lines were still actively produced, they would have been rechecked.

As to the overseas versions, they've addressed that I believe. Their stance is that there aren't enough in the US distribution system to acquire to get accurate testing on those.

Would it be better if they just banned those too without ever testing them?

Motiv and the USBC are going to have to fight this out. Both sides better be able to justify their actions completely to the bowlers, who are definitely the losers in this.

If either side comes out of this looking as if they were in the wrong for fighting this, they will be made to pay by the bowlers.

Aloarjr810

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2016, 02:41:00 PM »
They fine the most minuscule "violation" and they jump on it faster then hillary clinton can tell another lie.

And if they hadn't everyone would be saying how the USBC doesn't enforce the rules and/or are dragging their feet.

The USBC can't win no matter what they do.

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12XSECH

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Re: Motiv website
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2016, 03:37:12 PM »
Next year the league I'll be in will be NON usbc sanctioned.