win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Ron C...You were right...  (Read 4717 times)

DukeHarding

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5855
Ron C...You were right...
« on: December 14, 2005, 08:26:47 AM »
I am a BIG CHICKEN.

You had recommended 3/8 forward in the thumb, to alleviate my problem with the skin peeling off the back of my thumb, when using Magic Carpet.

I plugged an old ball that had 1/8 reverse, 1/8 left lateral in the thumb.
I told my driller to put 1/4 forward in the ball, as I thought that it was really pushing the forward pitch to an extreme. He thought 1/4 forward was extreme, and recommended 1/8 forward. I went with 1/4 forward.

I picked the ball up Monday night...put a sleeve in the thumb hole, installed a piece of MC...and went out to practice with the nall today. I remembered what you said about not squeezing the ball. I took my catcher's mask with, just in case, I did squeeze the ball...I didn't need it.

It took a game to get used to the pitch, and relax my hand.
I had no trouble at all coming out of the ball. My practice partner said it was the cleanest he had seen my release in years. Funny thing is: I could go an 1/8 more forward in the thumb. I found I was squeezing the ball a little tiny bit.

I also want to publicly thank you, for the quick service, sending out the "lost" Magic Carpet shipment...You are A+ in my book.
My practice partner put a piece of Magic Carpet in his ball, and liked it...He likes the whole Magic Carpet concept...makes sense.

On Edit:

I'm using BLUE Vise Skin Protection tape. I super glue the end to my thumb nail, and stretch the tape tight down the thumb 3/4" past the beginning of the thumb (towards the hand), stopped the redness, and tearing totally.

--------------------
Duke Harding
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bowling Coaches Web Site Link

"Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty  or eighty.
Anyone who keeps learning stays young.
The greatest thing in life  is to keep your mind young."
-- Henry Ford

Edited on 12/14/2005 6:00 PM

 

Sawuser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3700
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2005, 11:20:50 AM »
The proper span/pitch combo is KEY!
--------------------
Wayne
FOS HARD CORE MEMBER
   Diamond Cutter

And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgement

Nollster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 956
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2005, 11:35:31 AM »
A little bevel works for me....I have one ball at 1/2" forward and the rest at 3/8" forward.  It's fantastic!!  There's no turning back once you hit the "forward" side!!  
--------------------

Nollster

Summer league
Winter League

a_ak57

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10584
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2005, 12:44:57 PM »
quote:
If you change your pitches like this, your going to also need to change your spans some or use alot of bevel.  you just can't go a ton forward without a change in span, unless you wan't to put a huge bevel on the lip.

The 63 degree thumb angle is still the only proven way to produce a perfect fit with no thumb hang or drag.   If your going to go that much forward, you should look into getting your span as close to the 63 degree chat as you can.
--------------------
Bowling Sometimes Is Fun...

I know that's "The Rule" and is accepted by many, but that seems EXTREMELY cookie cutter-like to me to declare that a certain thing is perfect for everyone.
--------------------
- Andy

Magic Carpet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2005, 01:38:47 PM »
Just give me a bowler using reverse pitch.

Give me a ball with a "CORRECT" span. (The IPSCA standard or what ever it is called...no need to change span unless is was different from the standard)

Dill the thumb pitch 3/8 forward with a span of 5 inches or less.

I will bet $100 I can have the bowler throwing the ball better than before (unles he is great already, I don't think I would take this challenge with Tommy Jones and I have no idea what his thumb pitch is.

I think this would make a good challenge for the next gathering.

Ron Clifton
Changing the world 1 thumb hole at the time

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2005, 02:04:14 PM »
I just can't find the quote above in this post by Ak-57???

where is it?  (stop....I found it)!

Also...Sawuser...no bevel...lots of forward...let's get to it....Did you shorten your span when you went forward?

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS my experience with the guys in our houses that went forward and left span the same is ever one got tingling and black mark on thumbs.  A very small amount of front bevel increase solved the problem.
--------------------
Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year!  Don't bowl me the second two games though!  (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)

Edited on 12/15/2005 2:54 PM
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

a_ak57

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10584
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2005, 02:10:59 PM »
quote:
I use 1/8 forward with 1/4 left lateral.  In my case I feel the left lateral does as much for my release as the 1/8 forward does.  I feel i am as clean out of the ball as a no thumber (lol that is how easy my thumb exits the ball)  The lateral left for me takes a lot of pressure off the thumb and my wrist
--------------------
Triggerman
Official member Fellowship of the Saws
Captain of the Bomb Squad
Chicks Dig guys who throw the Diamonds
we fight Dirty.    

Nothing left to discuss


www.bowlingballexchange.com
www.bowlingkingdom.com

Trigg, like I told you before you are just a freak of nature.  Guys, what he fails to tell you is he somehow uses 1/8 forward with a 5 1/4" span.  And according to the charts from Bill Taylor that's just amazing.
--------------------
- Andy

DukeHarding

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5855
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2005, 02:27:57 PM »
When I put the oval sleeve back in the thumb hole, positioned properly, I hit the top back of the hole, and the front top of the hole a bit. I worked the back a bit with an oval file, maybe a 1/16 off the top. I then tried to clear the hole, and was hitting the hole about and 1/8" down in the front of the hole. I worked the edge of the hole with the same file...very slowly. I took maybe 1/16th off the front about an 1/8 down in the hole. I left the lip of the hole sharp (on the front). I took a yellow grease pencil, covered the thumb of the thumb sleeve with the yellow...inserted my thumb in the hole, I had yellow on 2 areas of the front of the thumb...I used sandpaper to slowly work the hole...until I came out clean.

I than inserted the Magic Carpet, about 3/16 of an inch down in the hole.
Took a piece of Vise Tape, cut it to the proper length...rounded the front of the tape with scissors. I applied the tape (rounded end) to my thumb nail, stretched the tape tight down along the thumb. I super glued the tape to my thumb nail with a clue called Lock Tite, which comes with a brush.
The tape stayed on my thumb for 8 games.

The ball felt like it connected to my hand...I didn't have to hold on to it.
When it came to my ankle area, I knew I couldn't whack the ball, or hit pup on it...The ball came clean off my hand, with increased revs. I've been working on finding a better fit for 4 years. It was absolutely amazing...I really, deep down inside thought I would never get out of the ball. Looking at videotape of my release, I had been hitting up on the ball slightly...lofting maybe 2-3 feet (low) on the lane.

Now the problem is: "Getting all the balls in my arsenal to feel the same."
--------------------
Duke Harding
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bowling Coaches Web Site Link

"Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty  or eighty.
Anyone who keeps learning stays young.
The greatest thing in life  is to keep your mind young."
-- Henry Ford

Sawuser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3700
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2005, 03:37:50 PM »
Also...Sawuser...no bevel...lots of forward...let's get to it....Did you shorten your span when you went forward?

REgards,

Luckylefty

Yes, accordingly. I do not have lots of forward, 1/4 is the most I have tried.
But that is why I stated the span & pitch must be correct. My overall span was shortened about 1/4" from a stretch to a relaxed span.
--------------------
Wayne
FOS HARD CORE MEMBER
   Diamond Cutter

And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgement

Phillip Marlowe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2554
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2005, 03:43:20 PM »
quote:
Just give me a bowler using reverse pitch.

Give me a ball with a "CORRECT" span. (The IPSCA standard or what ever it is called...no need to change span unless is was different from the standard)

Dill the thumb pitch 3/8 forward with a span of 5 inches or less.

I will bet $100 I can have the bowler throwing the ball better than before (unles he is great already, I don't think I would take this challenge with Tommy Jones and I have no idea what his thumb pitch is.

I think this would make a good challenge for the next gathering.

Ron Clifton
Changing the world 1 thumb hole at the time



You tell me where and I'll be there...

[Ron C and Phillip stand, staring at each other, with the theme from "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" playing in the background, until a new ball is drilled and thrown....]
--------------------
"Some guys get the world.  Other guys get ex-hookers and a trip to Arizona."

Edited on 12/15/2005 4:34 PM
"Some men get the world.  Others get ex-hookers and a trip to Arizona."

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2005, 09:13:34 PM »
vols....

Span length?

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS sawuser...span length.
--------------------
Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year!  Don't bowl me the second two games though!  (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

Strider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6752
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2005, 09:52:40 PM »
I used 5/16 reverse for years.  Good release, no thumb problems.  I let Ron talk me into trying one of his balls.  Didn't tell me the pitch until after I threw it a few times.  Told me to relax my hand and not squeeze.  Threw it pretty well considering everything was different.  I was amazed that it was 3/8" forward.  Really big change.  The key is to NOT SQUEEZE THE BALL.  I used to hang up if I tried even a little more forward of what I was.  Now I am at 9/16" forward and could probably go more.  I just don't want to reslug a bunch of balls.  Sure I shortened my span about 1/4", but I was a little stretched before.  Of course it's not for everyone, but if you give it a chance and learn not to squeeze, you might be surprised.
--------------------
Penn State Proud

Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive

Nollster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 956
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2005, 08:08:05 AM »
I've been thinking about this for a while:  how much forward is too much?  This particularly came to light recently when my pharmacy switched my thyroid meds to generic.  One of the primary symptoms is cramping of the hands (heck, everything cramps now!!) when doing small muscle work, like writing.  My point being, as you increase the forward pitch, won't you get to a point where you may get out of the ball cleanly, but may experience hand pain from the cramped position of the hand??  Kind of like continually picking up a pencil with just your bowling fingers and thumb?
--------------------

Nollster

Summer league
Winter League

Magic Carpet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2005, 10:13:46 AM »
Nollster,
No because your hand is not closed up that tight, like when using a pen.
Just relax your hand and look at it. Does the thumb point backward or forward?

If I look at the thumb side of my hand with it in a relaxed position my thumb points well forward and the rest of my fingers kind of curl in to form a “C”.  

I look at forward and reverse pitch like palming a ball. The more reverse you have the more you are trying to palm a basketball. The more forward you have the more it is like palming a softball, which everyone can do.

Is there a limit? Yes and you will know you have hit the limit when you start having trouble clearing ether the front edge of the thumb hole or the back of the thumb hole with your nail.

Someone mentioned Bill Taylor’s chart above. Well Bill and I both say nearly the same thing in regards to forward pitch. “You keep moving more forward until you hang and then back up a notch”. Bill says back up 1/16 and I say back up 1/8. That is t he only place where we differ. Bill’s chart is just a starting point not an ending point. Most ball drillers have taken Bill’s chart and added ¼ more reverse to it anyway.

I don’t know if Bill Taylor has ever written the above statement anywhere or if that is what he teaches in his clinics. He may reserve that statement for more expert bowlers. I found out what Taylor believes through working with Eric Forkel. Of the many things we changed in Eric’s game a few months ago, one was his thumb pitches.

Eric had 1/8 reverse when we started and we drilled balls all the way up to 5/8 forward. He threw 5/8 forward very well but I think he finely decided on 5/16 forward. He was afraid if he went much more forward and was bowling on TV for a title he would get nervous and squeeze the ball too much; launching it through the ceiling. That would never happen but I could never convince him of that. The guy had bowled on TV 28 times I don’t think he will get THAT nervous.

 In our discussions on forward pitch he told me that Bill Taylor had told him the same thing years ago. Keep going forward until you hang and then back up a notch. Eric has worked with nearly every “famous” couch in the country and spent a lot of time with Bill Taylor so he knows Bills thoughts on the subject.

Bowl great!
Ron Clifton

Brickguy221

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9918
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2005, 10:27:29 AM »
In reading all of the posts here on the subject of forward pitch, there is the group that has tried it (like myself) and it didn't work even with span and bevel adjustments/changes and then there is the group that tried it, it worked, and they love it thinking that is the only way. For the group that forward pitch works for, hey that is great and I wish I could use forward pitch also, but unfortunately I and others here can't use forward pitch, so quit thinking that just because it works for you that it will work for everyone, because it won't. If that was the only way to go, wouldn't all of the Pros be using forward pitch?

--------------------
Brick
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

Nollster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 956
Re: Ron C...You were right...
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2005, 11:14:50 AM »
quote:
In reading all of the posts here on the subject of forward pitch, there is the group that has tried it (like myself) and it didn't work even with span and bevel adjustments/changes and then there is the group that tried it, it worked, and they love it thinking that is the only way. For the group that forward pitch works for, hey that is great and I wish I could use forward pitch also, but unfortunately I and others here can't use forward pitch, so quit thinking that just because it works for you that it will work for everyone, because it won't. If that was the only way to go, wouldn't all of the Pros be using forward pitch?

Of course that's the case -- that's what makes this such a great debate!!  I went to forward pitches after talking/working with Ron and it's been great for me.  I also recommend people take a look at moving their pitches forward based on my experiences with it.  I caution them it may not work for them and to not just change their whole arsenal until they've found what will work best for them.  If it doesn't work, no biggie.  If it does, that's fine too.  I just know I have no hand, thumb, finger issues since going to the forward pitch and, combined with Magic Carpet, have a super clean release.  Why not share if it will help others??
--------------------

Nollster

Summer league
Winter League