Author Topic: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT (Read 11924 times)

pin-chaser · « **on:** January 12, 2010, 08:08:01 AM »

The tored bowling pace of today is NOT the product of any ONE specific issue. It is a product of the science of taking advantage of everything available. Having been a mechanic in the 70's and 80's and being responsible for some of the highest scoring paces in the nation during those times I can tell you for a FACT that todays THS is no different than those back in my day. I can tell you with out a question that BALLS react on SYNTHETIC surfaces completely different today. I average 220's then and average 230's today but the difference is about 100 games a week of practice less now (not to mention I will be 50 this year and took off 15 years out of the last 20).

Bowling should be a sport!!! And those that compete at the highest levels should be considered athletes... I dont beleive anyone here would disagree with this simple statement.

The problem of how to get there is incredibally difficult and is more politics than technology. From my vantage point the real obsticle to overcome is simply the fact that the majority of bowlers today only "know" bowling from thier specific perspective. The vast majority of bowlers today have been bowling since 1990's (the advent of technologies that has brought forth the scoring pace). Those bowlers who understand the differences (who competed prior) are a much smaller minority and have little to no input in making changes and are typically ridculed. Where else do the "experts" and those the experience have so little worth??

Integrity in bowling is at the core of this topic. The fact that nearly every record has been re-established since 1997 since the inception of the sport in 1890 despite a reduction of bowlers from the heydays in the 70's-80's of ~10M to ~4M today certianly speaks to the fact that scoring is too easy and integrity has been compromised. When in the 70 there were ~10,000 300 games with ~10M bowlers and today there are ~100,000 300 games with ~4M bowlers again speaks to the fact that things have gotten out of hand.

The debate here is about how best to neutalize the scoring pace or in effect increase integrity without alienating those that bowl today. Frankly even a baby cries when someone takes away there deserts but calms down in time. Clearly the approach has to be slow and overtime or else it will threaten some. But does the sport have the time? But before that can happen an approach needs to be defined. And until you have enough information you cant define a path.

Today, here in Memphis, you cant get one scratch league together period, despite having 4 bowlers average over 230, 40 bowlers or 220 and 160 bowlers between 200 and 220. That is over 200 bowlers who have registered averages over 200 and we cant put on the floor even a 10 team, 50 bowlers. Does that speak to integrity?? You do not have even 1 sport league during the winter in any house. You cant get more than around ~10 people to show up to pot bowl when you are giving them free lineage ($3.00 for unlimited bowling on fresh oil), playing 2-3 places and only putting up $5 per game (basically no risk). If handicap is not included 99% of the bowlers here will not bowl period. I suspect that is the case in most US.

I shot my 1st 300 in 1978 and a 72 lane center stopped to watch me in the 10th. Today even here in Memphis you get ridiculed by some who have 20 or 30 because they know it is too easy. The highest achievment in bowling is a joke. 900 series twice by the same "kid" and he is a joke (maybe validly no one really knows for sure). National high averages over 260 (Can you imagine 780 to shoot your average).

Integrity is not only about scoring. There is no real solution for handicaping. There will always be cheaters. But the governing body should simply throw them out but cant (because of law suites). None the less, here in Memphis, you cant simply get a scratch league to eliminate those that cheat. Besides, with the limited number of bowlers left accross the nation, scratch league bowlers would be bowling against limited number of bowlers in each area anyway.

Bowling needs a complete overhaul from the ground up. What is left is so messed up that it might not be fixable in a way that does not preclude starting over with a different plan anyway. Here are some of my ideas as to a possible direction....

1. Determine clearly defined skill levels and allow appropriate level of technology of each level. (I dont know what these would be as some group should be responsible for the definitions... however as an example: easiest scoring level open play or open league level where the maximum fun can be obtained, any technology.... Next level could be leagues where the skill leveled required could require the ability to maintain accurracy of 5 degrees, ball speed within 1mph, rev rate within 100 rpm and lane patterns to allow those that can does to average 210 with limited ball flare and limited friction, the next level could be a league that requires accuracy of 2.5 degrees, ball speed with .5mph, rev rate within 50mph and lane patterns to allow a 210 average with even more limited ball flare and friction....etc...
2. Build the sport to have integirty built in by having the sport fund itself. The national oragainzational body should ensure that MEN and WOMEN both have the highest level of competion befiting sport. An increase is dues of $5 could provide $20M in prize funds in addition to the sponsorships. In return these PRO's should be required to give back to there local communities by offering summer coaching especially the youth, bowling center or pro shop support, local association responsibilities and exhibitions to draw more interest.
3. A third party independant non-profit organization to maintain the integrity by defining #1 above and mainting the long term scoring pace ensuring that skill is the primary factor. This would include all technologies, pins, surfaces, balls, lane specifications...etc.
4. Consistent and accurate methodologies and definitions for all bowling items.

I have more... but until bowling takes bowling serious no one else will. Look at the sports that are in the olypmics and then look at why bowling is not. Defined standards if execution... not subjected to abnormal abouts of luck. Bowling should be the same.

mmcfarland300 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 13, 2010, 10:50:30 AM »

quote:
I already made my opinions on the subject known in the other thread, and there''s far too much to attempt to shoot down here, but I do have a major problem with this whole "integrity" argument.

Essentially, I would like someone to explain to me why everyone is so worried about the absolute scoring pace as opposed to the relative scoring pace. It doesn''t matter if you lay out the easiest THS imaginable or the US Open pattern, over the long run, the best will almost always rise to the top. I don''t see why it matters if the best are at 240 or 195, in a relative sense, the pecking order will remain unchanged.

And for those of you who argue a tougher pattern will reward better shotmaking and make higher scores something to be legitimately proud of, I can tell you that I''ve seen way too many THB''s shoot 250+ on sport patterns by carrying 4 brooklyns, 2 squashers, and missing 2 easy spares. Meantime, the far better player goes 190 clean and misses the pocket once. Changing the shot isn''t going to change anyone''s ability to make good shots, but with the absolute scoring pace lower, it definitely increases the probability that poor shotmakers can beat the better players scratch just by carrying nothing but garbage. Where''s the integrity in all of that?
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann

Edited on 1/13/2010 11:42 AM

+1
--------------------
"Another day will bring a different result"
"Pick your battles because stressing over things will not change an outcome"

r534me · « **Reply #17 on:** January 13, 2010, 11:03:09 AM »

Pin Chaser,

While I agree with most of what wrote I disagree about breaking down a pattern from a THB perspective. A team with good bowlers can agree to break down the pattern but in these parts most bowlers can't even agree on what ball surface to use on a pattern, and can barely hit their targets with any consistency. Once the THB develops the ability to control his speed and release then harder patterns can be exploited. The good scratch bowlers have always been able to blow up the patterns.

Consider the USBC nationals. Everyone knows what the pattern is but the scoring pace is still low. Granted records were broken last year but it was not by your local job THB bowler.

The shorter pattern idea is an excellent idea. I saw it last week at a city tournament where the pattern was short and outside five there was oil. I believe this was unintentional. Many bowlers were stumped because their high powered balls rolled out at 40 feet or missed the headpin altogether when the tried to swing it to the gutter. Low 200 avg bowlers were scoring in the 150's not only because of the inability to strike but their inability to spare. Lower the ball power or learning how to back off of the shot would have worked for most of them. However, I saw way too many people trying to rev it up even more and that only cause the ball to roll out sooner. The higher caliber player would have been playing fifth or sixth arrow but there were few there at the time

BTW, I never wrote that lane pattern modification was the end all solution. I merely added changing the patterns and controlling transitions as a suggestion.

txbowler · « **Reply #18 on:** January 13, 2010, 11:05:45 AM »

Why does a 200 average have to be the bar of excellence in bowling?

Because it always has been? Tradition?

Why not 220-225 which seems more accurate given today's scoring environment?

stopncrank · « **Reply #19 on:** January 13, 2010, 11:09:49 AM »

Pinchaser, thanks for a great thread. I was fortunate to start bowling at an early age(3, my parents say lol). I didnt get competitive at it till i was round 13 yrs old. My first "hook" ball was a Columbia Ultra-c, followed by others like a Blue Hammer, and an original Rhino. I grew up and learned bowling the hard way, through good ole hard work-practice, and late night pot games after leagues.

What really amazes me is the difference in scoring pace between the 2 centers in my home town-they are total 180''s from each other. The house i grew up in used to be notorious for carry problems, combined with a beat up wood surface. They switched to gaurdian overlays about 10 yrs ago, and the scores went through the roof, capped by a city record last year of 858.

Center two is the newer of the 2, and has older Brunswick synthetics. When it first opened, the pace of this house was off the charts, with numerous bowlers from house number one, barely 200+ average bowlers switching to the new center and imediately averaging 220+. Now days, though they are the complete opposite. Center one as of last week has 2 bowlers averaging 240+, with a handful over 225. Center two has not one bowler averaging 220, i think high average might be 218.

A great bowler from house one who averaged 230+ there last year, switched to house two and is now averaging 214. After bowling at house two the last two years, a couple of things have happened to me, 1- after bowling at the harder of the two houses i feel like im a better bowler for it. I no longer have 5 boards of miss in either direction at house two, and its made me hit my target more.

2-Because of the harder conditions, house two is struggling, to the point that it is up for sale and has been from what i hear for 6 months. Business is so bad there, the pro shop operator moved right after christmas. My point is this, today''s average bowlers dont want a challenge. Center two in my city took a chance and tried to toughen conditions, wether on purpose or not is debateable, but now they are really suffering. Its gotten so bad that our local Men''s association tournament, handicap tournament no less, was cancelled monday because of lack of entries. This is the most telling sign, handicap leagues and tournaments are suffering too not just scratch events.

I think until there is a standard house shot all across USBC sanctioned leagues, that is regulated by USBC approved officials similar to ABC regulations from too many years passed, the sport is gone. I dont think they should have ever done away with checking lanes after an honor score was shot. I think thats where it all began, because shots got easier because managers made it easier and easier to get rings.
--------------------
Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

Edited on 1/13/2010 12:12 PM

r534me · « **Reply #20 on:** January 13, 2010, 11:39:03 AM »

Poor shot makers carrying garbage is nothing new and will always be present even with any changes. As you wrote the cream of the crop will always rise so why worry about a THB shooting 250 on a sport shot? It's likely he'll shot 150 the next time around and things will average out. Or the next week he'll shoot 450 for the set. I am pretty sure the THB knows when he was out bowled but not outscored in your example. In fact, a guy crossing next to me was doing that. He looked terrible but he was carrying Brooklyns, etc. on a aport shot. It didn't bother me the least bit because once the transition set in he was dead meat.

Now from an integrity stand point, I looked at it from an outsider's perspective. Bowling is not considered a sport by most non bowlers and I don't think that is up for debate. Even some bowlers think the same way. Part of the reason, in my opinion, is that it's too easy to score well given that established and historic par score of 200. Now, that's a relative number. What if par was raised to 220 or 230? Well, that getting close to the perfect game of 300. Consider another game called golf which most would not consider a sport but generally speaking, it's quite respected by most in society, and if one can average par that person is considered quite good, and likely could win a few bucks in amateur tournaments. Averaging par in bowling for two seasons means one can join the PBA. And the way things are now a half decent bowler can do that in two or three years. Maybe, he won't be exempt and maybe he'll never cash in regional but he is still a card holder. So from an outsider's perspective it's not such a hard game and doesn't deserve respect. Without people's respect how can bowling grow or even continue to exist as a sport? It eventually becomes irrelevant, sort of like my post.

Anyway, I might have gone off on a tangent here.

r534me · « **Reply #21 on:** January 13, 2010, 12:06:41 PM »

Stopncrank,

Interesting post. There are few houses in the S.F. Bay Area. In San Francisco, there are 24 lanes in two houses for a population of 800k. The one I go to now is located outside of SF and recently they have been tightening the shot to the point where even the bombs they call bowling balls are unable to hit the headpin without a little hand in the ball or soft speed. I wonder how long that will last given the economics.

Personally, I love the harder shots because they force me to make quality shots to hit the pocket. But for the once a week bowler who only bowls in wide open shots it's likely discouraging.

I agree without some uniformity of the patterns nationwide the demise of bowling will continue. Other changes are needed as well pins, balls, etc. but I think it has to start somewhere.

Uncle Crusty · « **Reply #22 on:** January 13, 2010, 12:09:38 PM »

quote:
Poor shot makers carrying garbage is nothing new and will always be present even with any changes. As you wrote the cream of the crop will always rise so why worry about a THB shooting 250 on a sport shot? It's likely he'll shot 150 the next time around and things will average out. Or the next week he'll shoot 450 for the set. I am pretty sure the THB knows when he was out bowled but not outscored in your example. In fact, a guy crossing next to me was doing that. He looked terrible but he was carrying Brooklyns, etc. on a aport shot. It didn't bother me the least bit because once the transition set in he was dead meat.

Exactly. So if everything averages out in the end, who cares what the absolute scoring pace is? It will always be relative, and that should be enough.

quote:
Now from an integrity stand point, I looked at it from an outsider's perspective. Bowling is not considered a sport by most non bowlers and I don't think that is up for debate. Even some bowlers think the same way. Part of the reason, in my opinion, is that it's too easy to score well given that established and historic par score of 200. Now, that's a relative number. What if par was raised to 220 or 230? Well, that getting close to the perfect game of 300. Consider another game called golf which most would not consider a sport but generally speaking, it's quite respected by most in society, and if one can average par that person is considered quite good, and likely could win a few bucks in amateur tournaments. Averaging par in bowling for two seasons means one can join the PBA. And the way things are now a half decent bowler can do that in two or three years. Maybe, he won't be exempt and maybe he'll never cash in regional but he is still a card holder. So from an outsider's perspective it's not such a hard game and doesn't deserve respect. Without people's respect how can bowling grow or even continue to exist as a sport? It eventually becomes irrelevant, sort of like my post.

I suppose you could change what "par" in bowling is (from 200 to 220), but I really don't think that's why outsiders think bowling is a joke. Most of my non-bowling buddies don't even know they put oil on the lane, so how are they supposed to grasp the fact that house shots and ever-advancing ball technology have skewed the scores to the high side? It's probably a joke for a zillion reasons, none of which are technical.

And the golf analogy is irrelevant. The OP claimed that house shots of today are no different than those of 30 years ago, the only variable is ball technology. The problem is, technology can't be stopped.

For instance, take a guy who golfs in a weekly golf league and usually shoots around par (we'll say 72). Now take away this guy's $3,000 arsenal of clubs and give him some antique wooden drivers and steel irons with the stiffest shafts imaginable. I'll bet you any amount of money you want he won't shoot 72. My point is you can't cry about scores improving because of technology. You can change what par is, but you can't expect to keep curbing the scoring pace because technology is constantly improving, especially if the scoring pace never changes in a relative sense.
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann

DavidKSNK · « **Reply #23 on:** January 13, 2010, 12:46:14 PM »

Bowling has also become too complicated for most lay people to understand.

The current environment isn't helping this at all...

txbowler · « **Reply #24 on:** January 13, 2010, 12:49:22 PM »

I hate to go back to golf but it applies.

Augusta had to add length to most of its holes because technology was going to make that course and its history not matter. Tiger shot, I believe, 16 under PAR before they lengthened the course. The old scoring records were smashed and erased.

I think that scares some of the older members of the bowling society. They don't want their records and history to be forgotten or erased.

They worry that if PAR in bowling is set at 220, and they never averaged that high, they will be forgotten or perceived to have been not as good.

Just food for thought.

DavidKSNK · « **Reply #25 on:** January 13, 2010, 01:09:33 PM »

People need to remember that while yes technology does improve, the technology should not improve in such a manner that it begins to eliminate certain physical abilities from the sport.

Bowling is the only sport that can boast of having driving pros out of the game because of the technology changes with bowling balls. That's really quite sad. The governing bodies of any sport are supposed to effectively monitor equipment changes, and to safeguard the integrity of any given sport. This was one of the many failures of the then ABC. They did nothing to curb the technology growths in equipment. The technology advances should have been limited to lane maintenance procedures and pin setters for the most part.

There is one way to easily see that the ball technology was slowly getting out of control. In 1981, the PBA Player's Committee voted to unanimously ban urethane bowling balls. Why? Because in typical short-sighted fashion, those in charge of the PBA overruled them due to not wanting to step on the ball companies toes. The same scenario replayed itself again in 1991/1992 with reactive resin. No good has come out of these steroid bowling balls allowing to be used at the highest levels of the sport. The only answer anyone had was to increase oil volumes to the near maximum allowable points on the lanes. There has become a higher emphasis on equipment than was ever necessary at one time. Skill began to be removed slowly from the sport. Now to be competitive at a tournament one needs to lug around a car full of bowling balls? Yeah, that's just fabulous.

renaissanceman517kak · « **Reply #26 on:** January 13, 2010, 01:09:50 PM »

quote:
Posted: 1/13/2010 10:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sometimes I don't know which side of the fence I'm on.

There are days that I'm discouraged when a mixed leaguer stands on 15 all night, hits somewhere on the right of the lane and carries through the face the whole first/second games and then carries the cross hits all through the third game while I'm moving 3 and 2, 4 and 2, 5 and 3 trying to keep my angles and ball speed in my happy zone. There are nights when I get annoyed.

Then there are nights that I'm hitting light, carrying the world while throwing absolutely miserable shots.

But I think that sometimes we're a bunch of stodgy and crotchity curmudgeons. One would have to have their head in the sand if they didn't think that technology has evened the playing field a bit. But.......If the "we" that is represented by the highly skilled 215-220 crowd is that much better, their skill set(s) in theory should enable them to overcome that perceived advantage that technology giveth. I mean, if you're that much better than me, your skill should outlast my "luck" in the long run.

And now there's the average Joe bowler who is probably laughing internally [if not outwardly as I've seen some do] at the premier bowler guy stoning 8-pins on flush hits and shaking his head at my {joe bowler}light swishy brooklyn fold-down-the-5-10 strikes. Trust me, I know you're better. But tonight is my night. There's days/nights like that.

As for me personally, I'm the I-have-no-business-being-the-220+-that-I-am-and-I-know-it guy. Sure, I love technology. It helps me carry. I am deadly accurate. That's all I have. I averaged 180-188 in the burgundy hammer days. I hit my mark every time. Every time. But I just didn't have the technique to generate the power/hand that I needed to make the premier 200 guys shake in their boots.

So what did I do? I befriended the counter guy [had to since I was a 19-year old college kid with a part time paint store job] and busted my hump bowling dozens and dozens of games, trying to refine my unique skill set and get to the point where I could split boards on command. My game improved with technology. So did my carry. I know that I have no business carrying 220. In some leagues, I'm 224-225. But, probably to my discredit, I have no qualms with it. I don't second guess myself. I can't generate area with my rev rate of <250, my speed of 13-14mph, and a low spinner-esque PAP of 4.5 by 0.5 up. I still don't send pins flying all over the place. Sure, I get a messenger once in a while, but me and my teammates openly mock me when it happens. I get that technology helps me, but I won't change my style. I like being accurate. If it means I have to pick up a few more 10-pins than the Caveman Cranker Guy, then so be it. But maybe for some warped reason I'm not too caught up about the whole technology disparity conundrum when someone I'm bowling against says to me, "I don't think I've ever seen anyone hit the same spot every single shot like you do."

That almost makes all the bashing worth it.

Sometimes, I wonder if those who so outwardly and vehemently complain about technology would be happier driving Studebakers and having loads of fun on their Commodore 64's. I mean, you can still drive and do "computer things" on those. I don't know if I totally embrace technology and how "easy" it can make things, but I don't know if I am as vehemently objected to it as others may be.

Technology goes with the terrain. If we weren't developing the technology that we were, would others be stomping their feet saying that the sport we love is going nowhere and is becoming too stagnant for its own good?

Again, just my opinion...........

Beautifully said...

renaissanceman517kak · « **Reply #27 on:** January 13, 2010, 01:13:44 PM »

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I already made my opinions on the subject known in the other thread, and there''s far too much to attempt to shoot down here, but I do have a major problem with this whole "integrity" argument.

Essentially, I would like someone to explain to me why everyone is so worried about the absolute scoring pace as opposed to the relative scoring pace. It doesn''t matter if you lay out the easiest THS imaginable or the US Open pattern, over the long run, the best will almost always rise to the top. I don''t see why it matters if the best are at 240 or 195, in a relative sense, the pecking order will remain unchanged.

And for those of you who argue a tougher pattern will reward better shotmaking and make higher scores something to be legitimately proud of, I can tell you that I''ve seen way too many THB''s shoot 250+ on sport patterns by carrying 4 brooklyns, 2 squashers, and missing 2 easy spares. Meantime, the far better player goes 190 clean and misses the pocket once. Changing the shot isn''t going to change anyone''s ability to make good shots, but with the absolute scoring pace lower, it definitely increases the probability that poor shotmakers can beat the better players scratch just by carrying nothing but garbage. Where''s the integrity in all of that?
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann

Edited on 1/13/2010 11:42 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

+1

+2 It's all relative. Even if the conditions are easier, the better bowlers are still going average higher...this to me is all much ado about nothing...

txbowler · « **Reply #28 on:** January 13, 2010, 01:24:38 PM »

Ask Corey Pavin if the new golf technology has helped his golf game. Before the arrival of the new drivers, Pavin was a top 10 golfer because he was deadly accurate of the tee. He still is. But he cannot take advantage of the additional length with the new clubs. So now he is still on the tour, but not one of the best in the world. So bowling is not the only sport that technology has made certain pros weaker, and others stronger because they could take advantage of what technology offered them.

DrBob806 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 13, 2010, 01:28:04 PM »

quote:
I hear ya! But....

I would also require every association to complete 2 no-notice tapings every year with a minimum of 90 days between tapings.

--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com

That puts quite a bit of responsibilty on the Associations. Presently, the USBC does NOTHING to a center if they are not compliant on lane specs. The USBC will not help Local Associations out with this issue, they don't even supply the tape or tape readers.

Perhaps you already know that, not sure. Talk to any of your association reps, they'll tell you the same story, I'm sure.

Throw in the fact that our USBC offices in Texas are adjoined by the BPAA, and I think you know where lane specs are headed....into the hands of the proprietors. With bowling participation down all over the place, there is no way you are going to convince proprietors to alter their methods of bringing in bowlers (many are "chasing high scores').

DavidKSNK · « **Reply #30 on:** January 13, 2010, 02:19:55 PM »

quote:
Ask Corey Pavin if the new golf technology has helped his golf game. Before the arrival of the new drivers, Pavin was a top 10 golfer because he was deadly accurate of the tee. He still is. But he cannot take advantage of the additional length with the new clubs. So now he is still on the tour, but not one of the best in the world. So bowling is not the only sport that technology has made certain pros weaker, and others stronger because they could take advantage of what technology offered them.

Again, how many pros have been driven out of the professional level because of the equipment?

Author Topic: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT (Read 11924 times)

pin-chaser

Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT

mmcfarland300

Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT

r534me

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txbowler

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stopncrank

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r534me

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r534me

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Uncle Crusty

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DavidKSNK

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txbowler

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DavidKSNK

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renaissanceman517kak

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renaissanceman517kak

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txbowler

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DrBob806

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DavidKSNK

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