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Author Topic: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT  (Read 11923 times)

pin-chaser

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Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« on: January 12, 2010, 08:08:01 AM »
The tored bowling pace of today is NOT the product of any ONE specific issue. It is a product of the science of taking advantage of everything available. Having been a mechanic in the 70's and 80's and being responsible for some of the highest scoring paces in the nation during those times I can tell you for a FACT that todays THS is no different than those back in my day. I can tell you with out a question that BALLS react on SYNTHETIC surfaces completely different today. I average 220's then and average 230's today but the difference is about 100 games a week of practice less now (not to mention I will be 50 this year and took off 15 years out of the last 20).

Bowling should be a sport!!! And those that compete at the highest levels should be considered athletes... I dont beleive anyone here would disagree with this simple statement.

The problem of how to get there is incredibally difficult and is more politics than technology. From my vantage point the real obsticle to overcome is simply the fact that the majority of bowlers today only "know" bowling from thier specific perspective. The vast majority of bowlers today have been bowling since 1990's (the advent of technologies that has brought forth the scoring pace). Those bowlers who understand the differences (who competed prior) are a much smaller minority and have little to no input in making changes and are typically ridculed. Where else do the "experts" and those the experience have so little worth??

Integrity in bowling is at the core of this topic. The fact that nearly every record has been re-established since 1997 since the inception of the sport in 1890 despite a reduction of bowlers from the heydays in the 70's-80's of ~10M to ~4M today certianly speaks to the fact that scoring is too easy and integrity has been compromised. When in the 70 there were ~10,000 300 games with ~10M bowlers and today there are ~100,000 300 games with ~4M bowlers again speaks to the fact that things have gotten out of hand.

The debate here is about how best to neutalize the scoring pace or in effect increase integrity without alienating those that bowl today. Frankly even a baby cries when someone takes away there deserts but calms down in time. Clearly the approach has to be slow and overtime or else it will threaten some. But does the sport have the time? But before that can happen an approach needs to be defined. And until you have enough information you cant define a path.

Today, here in Memphis, you cant get one scratch league together period, despite having 4 bowlers average over 230, 40 bowlers or 220 and 160 bowlers between 200 and 220. That is over 200 bowlers who have registered averages over 200 and we cant put on the floor even a 10 team, 50 bowlers. Does that speak to integrity??  You do not have even 1 sport league during the winter in any house. You cant get more than around ~10 people to show up to pot bowl when you are giving them free lineage ($3.00 for unlimited bowling on fresh oil), playing 2-3 places and only putting up $5 per game (basically no risk). If handicap is not included 99% of the bowlers here will not bowl period. I suspect that is the case in most US.  

I shot my 1st 300 in 1978 and a 72 lane center stopped to watch me in the 10th. Today even here in Memphis you get ridiculed by some who have 20 or 30 because they know it is too easy. The highest achievment in bowling is a joke. 900 series twice by the same "kid" and he is a joke (maybe validly no one really knows for sure). National high averages over 260 (Can you imagine 780 to shoot your average).

Integrity is not only about scoring. There is no real solution for handicaping. There will always be cheaters. But the governing body should simply throw them out but cant (because of law suites). None the less, here in Memphis, you cant simply get a scratch league to eliminate those that cheat. Besides, with the limited number of bowlers left accross the nation, scratch league bowlers would be bowling against limited number of bowlers in each area anyway.

Bowling needs a complete overhaul from the ground up. What is left is so messed up that it might not be fixable in a way that does not preclude starting over with a different plan anyway. Here are some of my ideas as to a possible direction....

1. Determine clearly defined skill levels and allow appropriate level of technology of each level. (I dont know what these would be as some group should be responsible for the definitions... however as an example: easiest scoring level open play or open league level where the maximum fun can be obtained, any technology.... Next level could be leagues where the skill leveled required could require the ability to maintain accurracy of 5 degrees, ball speed within 1mph, rev rate within 100 rpm and lane patterns to allow those that can does to average 210 with limited ball flare and limited friction, the next level could be a  league that requires accuracy of 2.5 degrees, ball speed with .5mph, rev rate within 50mph and lane patterns to allow a 210 average with even more limited ball flare and friction....etc...
2. Build the sport to have integirty built in by having the sport fund itself. The national oragainzational body should ensure that MEN and WOMEN both have the highest level of competion befiting sport. An increase is dues of $5 could provide $20M in prize funds in addition to the sponsorships. In return these PRO's should be required to give back to there local communities by offering summer coaching especially the youth, bowling center or pro shop support, local association responsibilities and exhibitions to draw more interest.
3. A third party independant non-profit organization to maintain the integrity by defining #1 above and mainting the long term scoring pace ensuring that skill is the primary factor. This would include all technologies, pins, surfaces, balls, lane specifications...etc.
4. Consistent and accurate methodologies and definitions for all bowling items.

I have more... but until bowling takes bowling serious no one else will. Look at the sports that are in the olypmics and then look at why bowling is not. Defined standards if execution... not subjected to abnormal abouts of luck. Bowling should be the same.
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mainzer

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2010, 02:38:43 PM »
[/quote]

 PBAX is not all that enjoyable. I don''t find it enjoyable to throw a great shot, only to have the ball overreact after 3 frames and have a big 4 to show for it when the previous 3 shots were dead flush.


The reason why bowling has gone the way it has ^^^^^^If you THINK you throw a great ball and it overeacted you DIDN''T throw a great ball. That means YOU need to get better the lane condition doesnt need to be easier.

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stopncrank

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2010, 02:39:25 PM »
quote:
quote:
Ask Corey Pavin if the new golf technology has helped his golf game.  Before the arrival of the new drivers, Pavin was a top 10 golfer because he was deadly accurate of the tee.  He still is.  But he cannot take advantage of the additional length with the new clubs.  So now he is still on the tour, but not one of the best in the world.  So bowling is not the only sport that technology has made certain pros weaker, and others stronger because they could take advantage of what technology offered them.


Again, how many pros have been driven out of the professional level because of the equipment?


Bob Vespi, Ricky Ward, Joe Firpo, Mark Miller, Kelly Coffman, Steve Cook, Wayne Webb to name a few...
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DavidKSNK

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2010, 02:51:16 PM »
quote:
quote:
quote:
Ask Corey Pavin if the new golf technology has helped his golf game.  Before the arrival of the new drivers, Pavin was a top 10 golfer because he was deadly accurate of the tee.  He still is.  But he cannot take advantage of the additional length with the new clubs.  So now he is still on the tour, but not one of the best in the world.  So bowling is not the only sport that technology has made certain pros weaker, and others stronger because they could take advantage of what technology offered them.


Again, how many pros have been driven out of the professional level because of the equipment?


Bob Vespi, Ricky Ward, Joe Firpo, Mark Miller, Kelly Coffman, Steve Cook, Wayne Webb to name a few...
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....


Exactly...

Corey Pavin can still cut it on the golf tour...all of those pro bowlers disappeared when their physical skills were supplanted by the bowling balls.

txbowler

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2010, 03:49:29 PM »
Just curious.

How many have ever witnessed a PBA stop?  I did before it was the same set patterns and 64 bowlers but I assume it is pretty close to the same now as it was 10 years ago.  These bowlers are REALLY REALLY good.  They all hit the pocket 99% of the time. Back then, it was spares to cash and carry to make the top 24.

Now, it's all a matter of carry.

People talk about taking an arsenal to tournaments now.  

Kelly Kaufman drilled 35 balls for a PBA stop in Kansas in the 80's.  I know because I worked in the pro shop that he gave them to, to be plugged and redrilled for the youth bowlers.

The pros did it back then too.  Your local guys may not have, but the PBA guys did.

You do what it takes to win on the conditions given.  That's what most of us do.

9andaWiggle

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2010, 06:24:02 PM »
As for the golf analogy, I'd love to find a set of hickory shafted clubs and real wood heads to play with.  And I'm not anywhere near being a good, or even decent, golfer.

One thing to keep in mind... I don't think anyone who has ever played golf would look at Tiger, Mickelson, or any of the others on TV and think they were just as good as those guys (unless they were actually on tour with them).  Yet I've heard it more often than I can count at the bowling alley "What's so great about these guys on TV?  They don't shoot any better than I do."

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agroves

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2010, 07:33:10 PM »
quote:
Agroves, R5534me

   I do not agree that a "pattern" change only is the solution. Bowling balls today alter the pattern even is shorter 3 game sets. Work together with your team and you can do it in 6 frames. It used to be that "patterns" dictated the scoring pace and style but bowling balls have overcome the control over oil now. Simply put, there is a time in a 3 game set that ANY pattern could be exploited to produce higher than normal scoring. The view you are taking here is looking from the THS perspective and using that as the scale for scoring. The view and scale should be from the execution perspective and not the scoring potential by maximizing "error room".


We've{bowlers} have always had "error room".  Just the facts.  Lanes have been blocked forever, just ask some of the older players.  

quote:
I do agree that whatever changes are made need to happen over time if we are to save the existing ogranizational body. But just changing the "pattern" is NOT the only piece to the puzzle. We also have to attack the other issues that play a factor. Let me give you some examples:

1. Pins... If we make pins that are heavier than those that throw the ball slower or balls that burn up earlier wont strike as oftern. So is that good? Well maybe. Maybe is just means we are deciding that we are requiring certian execution requirememnts.
2. Pins #2... Today double voided pins (hollow in the stomach) cause pins to be top heavy and therefore fall easier. Perhaps we go back to solid pins (no voids) this might require my exacting entry angles into the pocket dispite power and might neutralize the advantange of the lane surfice and ball effects.


Okay, I could go along with that.

quote:
3. Perhaps shorter patterns that would cause todays balls to burn up by the vast majroty of bowlers and would required manufacturers to "power down" ball technology.


Never gonna happen.  This is where you lose me.  Technology is NOT going to go backwards.  Just isn't going to happen.  You can make tweaks to the limits of rg, surface rougness, diff, weight, statics, etc...  Thus the groove rule in golf.

quote:
4. Perhaps harder lane surfaces that would produce more skid naturally, even in the backend requiring more exactly execution.


Completely unrealistic.

quote:
5. Perhaps, deeper requirements on flat gutter depths that would prevent pins from being able to jump out requiring more exacting executing.


Possible, but not likely.

quote:
However these two facts are not the case any longer. Without the correct ball in your hand execution is fruitless today and bowling should not be about technology as the requiste skill.


I would argue that is part of the game today.  Great bowlers[ie scratch tournaments winners, pba regional guys, pba players and top level ams, in other words NOT your 220 avg wall baby] have to study the game more now than ever before.  You have to be more informed on covers, drillings, surface prep, lane surface, oil patterns.  

In my opinion, you could execute all day long playing 25 to 15 on the cheetah and never get a strike b/c you didn't study before hand.[extreme example] You seem to be completely disregarding that part of todays games.  That does require skill and knowledge.  Todays top level bowlers are FAR more educated and students of the game than past generations.....b/c they have to be to complete.


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David Lee Yskes

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2010, 08:05:08 PM »
quote:
Why does a 200 average have to be the bar of excellence in bowling?

Because it always has been?  Tradition?

Why not 220-225 which seems more accurate given today's scoring environment?


I think the true bowler's want the bar set back to 200, because look at the scoring averages of the PBA bowler's.

they are anywhere from 215 to 225 for the elite guys...  

when you have John Q Public blindly averaging 220, he wont and probably cant respect the PBA pro's averaging low 200's on the chameleon pattern..  


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David Lee Yskes

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2010, 08:43:25 PM »
quote:
As for the golf analogy, I'd love to find a set of hickory shafted clubs and real wood heads to play with.  And I'm not anywhere near being a good, or even decent, golfer.

One thing to keep in mind... I don't think anyone who has ever played golf would look at Tiger, Mickelson, or any of the others on TV and think they were just as good as those guys (unless they were actually on tour with them).  Yet I've heard it more often than I can count at the bowling alley "What's so great about these guys on TV?  They don't shoot any better than I do."

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9andawiggle,

Not to hijack the thread but it deals with golf and what you mentioned..

So back in 2000, i picked up a old set of golf clubs at a yard sale for my brother for 20$    Well he used the Irons ( old wilson swing lite blades ) till 2004.. I gave him some of my semi new drivers...  So for 4 yrs he used these clubs, even took a golfing general class at michigan state..  And he became pretty decent at golf, I think he's like a 12 to 14 handicap right now...  

Well in 04 he went into a Golf Pro shop to get a new Iron cuz he snapped one, and while in the process of talking to the proshop guy about a new iron, he brings in his clubs from his car.  And the pro-shop guy started laughing cuz he hadnt seen Irons that old in along time.

Needless to say he walked out with some new Wilson DeepRed cavity backs.. Well after his first round with his new Irons / drivers.  He called me up and was like WOW i cant believe how far I can hit the ball with my Irons...  He states, his 5 iron usta go about 130 or so, and now it goes 175+...  and all his hits were straighter, even mis--hits went a decent distants and still landed on the fairway.    

Did he think he was as good as Tiger,Phil,Ernie,Sergio, and so on???  nope because his scores were far from it...  

where golf has it right, is they have a scoring system that tells you how well your doing... you can have a 3k set of golf clubs and practice for two yrs and still be the "suck", yet in bowling, if you spend 1 to 2k on equipment and spend two years playing / practicing you generally find yourself about a 190 to 210 average.  

yet the guys on tour practice daily and sometimes only average 215.....


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Atochabsh

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2010, 06:32:58 AM »
quote:
What the USBC needs to do is slowly reduce the ratio for "certified lane conditions".


Well, since they went from 45 days between zero lineages to 365 day.  I'd say they are not going to EVER police lane conditions ever again.  Even when they were 45 days between checks, they didn't uphold the requirements.

Atochabsh

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2010, 06:35:47 AM »
quote:
I like the idea of modifying the pins to move the center of gravity lower on them. This would be the cheapest and easiest to implement over a few years.


Kind of like "gold" pins?  We have a center within driving distance that still has some.


Atochabsh

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2010, 06:39:18 AM »
quote:
I would also require every association to complete 2 no-notice tapings every year with a minimum of 90 days between tapings.


They are ALWAYS (and still are) supposed to be no-notice.  You can not convince the centers of that.  And the association takes lots of heat if and when you do so.  And since USBC went from 45 days between checks to 365 days.....well, its just going through the motions.  


Atochabsh

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2010, 06:49:32 AM »
as far as the golf analogy..... we had a good one in travel league this weekend.

The house let us know that the newly resurfaced approaches were very slippery.  That didn't quite describe the degree of slippery.  But lets say they were like ICE.  Everyone that could changed soles and those that couldn't had a struggle period.  I think if you put the golfers on ice with little to no notice you might see a decrease in score.  And conversely if you put them on a playing field where they could NOT pivot when they hit the ball......  Most times bowlers don't get any advance warning to such approach conditions sticky or slick you have to deal with it.  Golfers look at the morning news...."ahhhhh its a frosty morning in Augusta".

Atochabsh

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2010, 07:05:45 AM »
quote:
Perhaps, deeper requirements on flat gutter depths that would prevent pins from being able to jump out requiring more exacting executing.


The margin is already there.  An no center wants to set their gutters at the extreme lowest level allowable.  Granted the local assiciation on checks this once a year for USBC.  There are many many warnings when and if such things do not pass.  So many that a center can go through one season and into the next "check".  And of course if the center is not compliant and an honor award is shot, there's no reprocussions to the bowler.  Because the bowler is not responsible for the shot and condition they are bowling on.  Therefore to penalize the bowler is not something USBC would ever do.

Rev_O

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2010, 07:08:39 AM »
very nice write up pin-chaser!
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rvmark

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2010, 07:12:43 AM »
Ironically out of all the people I have bowled with and against I have never heard anyone boast that they were good enough to bowl against the pros.  I do know the proshop operator at one of the centers has bowled in and even won a regional title.

Mark

quote:
As for the golf analogy, I'd love to find a set of hickory shafted clubs and real wood heads to play with.  And I'm not anywhere near being a good, or even decent, golfer.

One thing to keep in mind... I don't think anyone who has ever played golf would look at Tiger, Mickelson, or any of the others on TV and think they were just as good as those guys (unless they were actually on tour with them).  Yet I've heard it more often than I can count at the bowling alley "What's so great about these guys on TV?  They don't shoot any better than I do."

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