BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: no300tj on September 18, 2012, 09:08:31 PM
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Kathy, when will the USBC actually begin to protect the integrity of bowling by requiring we play on proper lane conditions instead of walled patterns that create artificial scoring levels? As bowlers we have no voice in these matters. And our sanctioning body says the proprietors can do whatever they want. How is this governing what goes on? As it stands now, bowling is bleeding members. Since the advent of reactive resin, the centers have tried to outscore one another. This philosophy hasn't stopped the mass exodus of bowlers. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. After 15+ years no one has learned a thing. When will the USBC grow a spine and DO something about it? Mandate flatter patterns at all times. Who cares if we lose bowlers, they are leaving anyway. You might as well support those that care about what it is bowling is supposed to be about. Keep in mind, they are screwing with your livelihood. At what point in time is the number of sanctioned bowlers low enough, that the USBC will cease to be necessary? T.J. Mittelstetter, Jr. 2358-6198
The above was sent to the usbc after my post about league resignation. As of today, I have not received a response. I'm not exactly sure what I expected, but I think I received the most likely result. Indifference. I'm not the greatest bowler. You can look up my lack of accomplishments if you wish, but you would think these people would want to open dialogue with the average bowlers across the country. Apparently, my rose colored glasses are making see people that care. Not encouraging.
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GO TO HAMMERBOWLING.COM LOOK AT SAVE BOWLING ON THEIR SITE ABOUT THE SKILL CAP. THE ONLY THING THAT USBC AND THE PBA HAVE AGREED ON RECENTLY IS MAKING SURE THAT THE EQUIPMENT IS RELEASED THE SAME DAY TO THE PUBLIC AS IT IS TO THE PBA PLAYERS AND ITS MEMBERS. THAT WAS SOMETHING I ADDRESSED THAT GOT DONE RECENTLY. YOU CAN EMAIL TOM CLARK VIA FACEBOOK HE MAYBE ABLE TO HELP YOU FURTHER
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GO TO HAMMERBOWLING.COM LOOK AT SAVE BOWLING ON THEIR SITE ABOUT THE SKILL CAP. THE ONLY THING THAT USBC AND THE PBA HAVE AGREED ON RECENTLY IS MAKING SURE THAT THE EQUIPMENT IS RELEASED THE SAME DAY TO THE PUBLIC AS IT IS TO THE PBA PLAYERS AND ITS MEMBERS. THAT WAS SOMETHING I ADDRESSED THAT GOT DONE RECENTLY. YOU CAN EMAIL TOM CLARK VIA FACEBOOK HE MAYBE ABLE TO HELP YOU FURTHER
Please turn "caps lock" off.
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I think USBC has learned that you can't make all the bowlers happy all the time. ;D
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Kathy, when will the USBC actually begin to protect the integrity of bowling by requiring we play on proper lane conditions instead of walled patterns that create artificial scoring levels? As bowlers we have no voice in these matters. And our sanctioning body says the proprietors can do whatever they want. How is this governing what goes on? As it stands now, bowling is bleeding members. Since the advent of reactive resin, the centers have tried to outscore one another. This philosophy hasn't stopped the mass exodus of bowlers. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. After 15+ years no one has learned a thing. When will the USBC grow a spine and DO something about it? Mandate flatter patterns at all times. Who cares if we lose bowlers, they are leaving anyway. You might as well support those that care about what it is bowling is supposed to be about. Keep in mind, they are screwing with your livelihood. At what point in time is the number of sanctioned bowlers low enough, that the USBC will cease to be necessary? T.J. Mittelstetter, Jr. 2358-6198
The above was sent to the usbc after my post about league resignation. As of today, I have not received a response. I'm not exactly sure what I expected, but I think I received the most likely result. Indifference. I'm not the greatest bowler. You can look up my lack of accomplishments if you wish, but you would think these people would want to open dialogue with the average bowlers across the country. Apparently, my rose colored glasses are making see people that care. Not encouraging.
I understand your stance, but I have seen one of the arguments in your original post repeated over and over, and I just don't believe it. I have never met a bowler who quit because the scores were too high or the shot was too easy. Where are all these bowlers who are leaving the sport because it is too easy?
I see bowlers who leave because of health, age, cost ... but not because the shot is too easy. I see a youth that cares about video games, computers and whatever else, that don't grow up in bowling alleys, much like past generations. A lot of sports (little league baseball, etc ..) in our area of dwindling because kids don't grow up playing sports as much as in the past. When I was a kid, video games didn't exist, or I am sure I know I would have been playing them often. Now I am not saying all kids avoid sports, but today there are so many other options than bowling.
I see bowling is waning, and league bowling may someday go extinct, but I don't think that the easy lanes conditions are what are causing people to flock from the sport. It could be a very small reason, but not the main reason.
If I am wrong I will admit it. If I really thought toughening up the patterns would bring more people to the sport, I would be the first one to go with it. I would love to see bowling thrive.
If people want tougher patterns, they can find them. They are harder to find, no doubt .. and that is because most league bowlers don't want them. Personally I think mandating tougher conditions will cause league bowling to die a faster death. People will get frustrated.
Please show me where my opinion holds no water.
Just my 2 cents.
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Kathy, when will the USBC actually begin to protect the integrity of bowling by requiring we play on proper lane conditions instead of walled patterns that create artificial scoring levels? As bowlers we have no voice in these matters. And our sanctioning body says the proprietors can do whatever they want. How is this governing what goes on? As it stands now, bowling is bleeding members. Since the advent of reactive resin, the centers have tried to outscore one another. This philosophy hasn't stopped the mass exodus of bowlers. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. After 15+ years no one has learned a thing. When will the USBC grow a spine and DO something about it? Mandate flatter patterns at all times. Who cares if we lose bowlers, they are leaving anyway. You might as well support those that care about what it is bowling is supposed to be about. Keep in mind, they are screwing with your livelihood. At what point in time is the number of sanctioned bowlers low enough, that the USBC will cease to be necessary? T.J. Mittelstetter, Jr. 2358-6198
The above was sent to the usbc after my post about league resignation. As of today, I have not received a response. I'm not exactly sure what I expected, but I think I received the most likely result. Indifference. I'm not the greatest bowler. You can look up my lack of accomplishments if you wish, but you would think these people would want to open dialogue with the average bowlers across the country. Apparently, my rose colored glasses are making see people that care. Not encouraging.
I understand your stance, but I have seen one of the arguments in your original post repeated over and over, and I just don't believe it. I have never met a bowler who quit because the scores were too high or the shot was too easy. Where are all these bowlers who are leaving the sport because it is too easy?
I see bowlers who leave because of health, age, cost ... but not because the shot is too easy. I see a youth that cares about video games, computers and whatever else, that don't grow up in bowling alleys, much like past generations. A lot of sports (little league baseball, etc ..) in our area of dwindling because kids don't grow up playing sports as much as in the past. When I was a kid, video games didn't exist, or I am sure I know I would have been playing them often. Now I am not saying all kids avoid sports, but today there are so many other options than bowling.
I see bowling is waning, and league bowling may someday go extinct, but I don't think that the easy lanes conditions are what are causing people to flock from the sport. It could be a very small reason, but not the main reason.
If I am wrong I will admit it. If I really thought toughening up the patterns would bring more people to the sport, I would be the first one to go with it. I would love to see bowling thrive.
If people want tougher patterns, they can find them. They are harder to find, no doubt .. and that is because most league bowlers don't want them. Personally I think mandating tougher conditions will cause league bowling to die a faster death. People will get frustrated.
Please show me where my opinion holds no water.
Just my 2 cents.
My 2 cents is that house conditions are part of the problem; though not the entire problem. Isnt it ironic how the biggest amateur tournament of the year is on tougher conditions with ZERO handicap? The problem with house conditions, is the 230-240 guy doesnt want a 200-210 guy to be given 30 pins of handicap because that guy is just as capable of popping off a 240-250 as the guy who is at 230. So they leave the league that gives handicap based off of a higher numbers. On the flip side, the guy at 180 refuses to bowl in leagues that have 230 guys in it because he has no shot at being competitive. Went through it the past 2 weeks. We are bowling against guys that have 30 pins a game and shooting 720 and we got smoked even though we bowled over our average as a team. Out of 70 total points the past 2 weeks, we only won 23 and we have bowled well. League bowling is HURTING our sport. Money leagues consist of a lot of drama and handicap leagues are ridiculous because the 220 guy "doesnt belong".
Money is another huge factor for the decline as well. Lineages paid in leagues to the center are going into the $11-12.00 range which means people now have to fork out $25-30/week to have a "money" league. People dont have $100/week to put towards bowling anymore with the economy in the shape it is in. If you get into a handicap league and pay only $15.00/week; even if you fill the house the prize fund is terrible.
IMO........if the USBC steps in and starts conducting their leagues like they do their tournament, I think bowling can thrive and grow. I am not saying lay down the USBC Tourmament shot for league play. But, I do think they need to find a happy medium between their tournament shot and what centers lay down for house shots. Then, center managers will have to decide whether to sanction their centers or just be an "entertainment center" and rely on open play. However, I have seen centers that had very little league play to speak of and most of those places ended up shutting their doors permanently.
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You still have a lot of bowling centers and leagues promoting the sport like they did 30 years ago. Which is doing nothing. 30 - 20 years ago there were waiting lists for leagues. Centers were filled. I recall at my local center 20 years ago, you had to make a reservation to open after the Friday night league.
People liked to bowl back then, and I still think they do today? So what changed?
Price? Well maybe, but 20 years ago open play on a Friday night was $1.75 a game. It is now $3.00. A $1.25 increase in twenty years is not breaking the bank in my area. So I think price isn't the issue, what the issue has others stated before. I trully believe it that the money is going else where.
1. Cell Phones: I know plenty of families (mine included) that their kids have cell phones. Not a cheap thing to own. If you are paying for 4 - 6 phones in your household it probably doesn't leave too much money for things like (a weekly night out of bowling).
2. Internet and TV (Cable/Satellite) has greatly increased in price over the years. Lots of people get packages like NFL or some sports package. Owning a DVR costs money.
Most people only have so much free money left to spend. These two areas have taken a lot of that money. I know people that must have the latest greatest phone. They spend hundreds of dollars to be the first with the new gadget.
Bowling is not going to get back to its glory days. Those days are long gone. But bowling can get stable in today's society. So where do you start.
Youth Programs. Ever notice that the centers with strong youth programs have strong adult leagues. Those with poor youth leagues usually have diminishing adult leagues. If center cators to it's young customers, it can be big for the bowling center in the long run.
Offer Family discounts to open bowling. Maybe centers offer things like a family bowling package. If the center has food. Offer a Large Pizza and Drinks and discount bowling for a Family night out. What I usually see, is a bowling center will try something like that, and expect the place to fill up the next couple of weeks, and when it doesn't they stop with the special. You got to hang in there. If people have fun and its a good time they will come back, and usually tell their friends.
As you get open bowlers in the center, then there is a greater chance of them wanting to join a league. Maybe you get a group of people coming in regularly. Have them keep there same names and keep a record of there average for the course of the year. Recognize them over the loud speaker throwing a high game or something.
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My 2 cents is that house conditions are part of the problem; though not the entire problem. Isnt it ironic how the biggest amateur tournament of the year is on tougher conditions with ZERO handicap? The problem with house conditions, is the 230-240 guy doesnt want a 200-210 guy to be given 30 pins of handicap because that guy is just as capable of popping off a 240-250 as the guy who is at 230. So they leave the league that gives handicap based off of a higher numbers. On the flip side, the guy at 180 refuses to bowl in leagues that have 230 guys in it because he has no shot at being competitive. Went through it the past 2 weeks. We are bowling against guys that have 30 pins a game and shooting 720 and we got smoked even though we bowled over our average as a team. Out of 70 total points the past 2 weeks, we only won 23 and we have bowled well. League bowling is HURTING our sport. Money leagues consist of a lot of drama and handicap leagues are ridiculous because the 220 guy "doesnt belong".
Money is another huge factor for the decline as well. Lineages paid in leagues to the center are going into the $11-12.00 range which means people now have to fork out $25-30/week to have a "money" league. People dont have $100/week to put towards bowling anymore with the economy in the shape it is in. If you get into a handicap league and pay only $15.00/week; even if you fill the house the prize fund is terrible.
IMO........if the USBC steps in and starts conducting their leagues like they do their tournament, I think bowling can thrive and grow. I am not saying lay down the USBC Tourmament shot for league play. But, I do think they need to find a happy medium between their tournament shot and what centers lay down for house shots. Then, center managers will have to decide whether to sanction their centers or just be an "entertainment center" and rely on open play. However, I have seen centers that had very little league play to speak of and most of those places ended up shutting their doors permanently.
I can say that anything is part of the problem. My point was simply that people always say that bowling is waning because the shots are too easy. I just don't personally see any evidence to back that up.
I don't think it is ironic that Nationals puts down a difficult shot. But how many people bowl in leagues in the US, and how many go to Nationals? The ratio is very small. You don't have 50% of leagues dreaming about going to Nationals to bowl on a fair shot. Do I think it is fair, yes. Do I think Leagues would thrive with tougher shots no. Would I personally bowl in a league that has tougher conditions on purpose, I already do.
I agree that money is an issue, and maybe to an extent the economy, but if it really was the economy then wouldn't league membership go up during good economic times, and fall during bad times? Or maybe even stay steady during good times and decrease during bad? I think that bowling has seen a steady decline all along.
Lineage isn't the only money factor anymore. Balls cost a lot more, and most bowlers have more than one, whereas 20-30 years ago, most people had 1.
I really can't say much about money leagues and such, because they don't really exist in my area. The best bowlers in town average in the high 220's, and there aren't enough of them interested in bowling scratch or for big money. And Handicap is a topic for another 1000 post thread. That topic will never change.
I'm really not trying to be argumentative, I just want to see someone show me how easy shots are the cause of the decline of league membership.
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As far as im concerned money is the almost the whole problem. I live in the bay area which has a high cost of living. I would say that the avg cost of a one game here is about $5 with the highest being $5.75 and at my house if your a league bowler you get a discount... $3.75 geee thanks. Over the last 2 years lineage has gone up 2.50 in all my leagues. This place is packed like every night too so its not like the owners hurting for money goodness sake he just opened a resturant across the way from the bowling alley and they dont oil the lane on the until 5 o'clock during the week and only oil the lanes they need to on saturday mornings for jr. league so i can never use my super sweet league bowler discount cause the lanes are all burnt out. And for the most part as far as lane maintainece goes this is how most the alleys in my area oil the lanes so anybody that whats to go during the day for serious practice can't, they have to wait for league to finish at night and hope they dont get a pair thats broke down to bad.
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Maybe you could use the times it's not re-oiled to practice a different release or use different equipment in case you go to a tournament that does not have a league wall.
A very smart guy told me once that there's never an unplayable shot, just bowlers that need to learn how to bowl on them.
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Maybe you could use the times it's not re-oiled to practice a different release or use different equipment in case you go to a tournament that does not have a league wall.
A very smart guy told me once that there's never an unplayable shot, just bowlers that need to learn how to bowl on them.
I disagree....in the modern game you NEVER see the "2 days of no oil house balls up the middle shot", so what good will practicing on it do? How often do you need to make the ball hook at 20 feet and then back up into the pins? To bowl on this sort of shot one needs to practice bad habits...things not only don't benefit you in tournaments, but hurt your regular game.
I think the issue is the balls...and specifically the lack of longevity. Think about how much it costs to be competitive now. How many balls you would be forced to buy each year to stay remotely competitive with the better scratch bowlers in your area. In the past (just 10 years ago), balls didn't die every 100 games so you could own 4/5 balls and replace as you wanted. Now you HAVE to replace them once or twice a year, at a retail cost of $1,000.
I have used the analogy before, but I have played golf since 5 years old. I use a 10 year old Titleist 983k driver, the same driver I have had for that whole time. When I get on a launch monitor the numbers on newer drivers are nearly the same. If I buy a new driver it will be out of choice, not necessity. If my 983k suddenly started going 50 yards shorter and I was forced to spend $350+ on a new driver every 6 months....I would have quit playing 10 years ago and never thought twice about it.
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I have used the analogy before, but I have played golf since 5 years old. I use a 10 year old Titleist 983k driver, the same driver I have had for that whole time. When I get on a launch monitor the numbers on newer drivers are nearly the same. If I buy a new driver it will be out of choice, not necessity. If my 983k suddenly started going 50 yards shorter and I was forced to spend $350+ on a new driver every 6 months....I would have quit playing 10 years ago and never thought twice about it.
Its funny how bowlers are okay today with replacing a bowling ball. The ball industry did well selling this to many bowlers. Of course, just as many (or not more) didn't buy into this philosphy and left the game.
Really if you think of it. Everyone states the phrase the game has "evolved". All this evolution in the sport has cost a lot of money. What was once something affordable to many people is a very costly sport. Actually if you think about it the word "evolved" in terms to bowling actually means "easier".
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I agree. People are leaving due to having no job, no time to commit to a long season, indifference, too old, price of gas. Also I see teams leaving due to disgust over conditions of the house (lanes breaking down non stop) and b/c the current league is too small - so they go for greener pastures. I haven't heard the easy shot mentioned much.
Kathy, when will the USBC actually begin to protect the integrity of bowling by requiring we play on proper lane conditions instead of walled patterns that create artificial scoring levels? As bowlers we have no voice in these matters. And our sanctioning body says the proprietors can do whatever they want. How is this governing what goes on? As it stands now, bowling is bleeding members. Since the advent of reactive resin, the centers have tried to outscore one another. This philosophy hasn't stopped the mass exodus of bowlers. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. After 15+ years no one has learned a thing. When will the USBC grow a spine and DO something about it? Mandate flatter patterns at all times. Who cares if we lose bowlers, they are leaving anyway. You might as well support those that care about what it is bowling is supposed to be about. Keep in mind, they are screwing with your livelihood. At what point in time is the number of sanctioned bowlers low enough, that the USBC will cease to be necessary? T.J. Mittelstetter, Jr. 2358-6198
The above was sent to the usbc after my post about league resignation. As of today, I have not received a response. I'm not exactly sure what I expected, but I think I received the most likely result. Indifference. I'm not the greatest bowler. You can look up my lack of accomplishments if you wish, but you would think these people would want to open dialogue with the average bowlers across the country. Apparently, my rose colored glasses are making see people that care. Not encouraging.
I understand your stance, but I have seen one of the arguments in your original post repeated over and over, and I just don't believe it. I have never met a bowler who quit because the scores were too high or the shot was too easy. Where are all these bowlers who are leaving the sport because it is too easy?
I see bowlers who leave because of health, age, cost ... but not because the shot is too easy. I see a youth that cares about video games, computers and whatever else, that don't grow up in bowling alleys, much like past generations. A lot of sports (little league baseball, etc ..) in our area of dwindling because kids don't grow up playing sports as much as in the past. When I was a kid, video games didn't exist, or I am sure I know I would have been playing them often. Now I am not saying all kids avoid sports, but today there are so many other options than bowling.
I see bowling is waning, and league bowling may someday go extinct, but I don't think that the easy lanes conditions are what are causing people to flock from the sport. It could be a very small reason, but not the main reason.
If I am wrong I will admit it. If I really thought toughening up the patterns would bring more people to the sport, I would be the first one to go with it. I would love to see bowling thrive.
If people want tougher patterns, they can find them. They are harder to find, no doubt .. and that is because most league bowlers don't want them. Personally I think mandating tougher conditions will cause league bowling to die a faster death. People will get frustrated.
Please show me where my opinion holds no water.
Just my 2 cents.
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I have used the analogy before, but I have played golf since 5 years old. I use a 10 year old Titleist 983k driver, the same driver I have had for that whole time. When I get on a launch monitor the numbers on newer drivers are nearly the same. If I buy a new driver it will be out of choice, not necessity. If my 983k suddenly started going 50 yards shorter and I was forced to spend $350+ on a new driver every 6 months....I would have quit playing 10 years ago and never thought twice about it.
Its funny how bowlers are okay today with replacing a bowling ball. The ball industry did well selling this to many bowlers. Of course, just as many (or not more) didn't buy into this philosphy and left the game.
Really if you think of it. Everyone states the phrase the game has "evolved". All this evolution in the sport has cost a lot of money. What was once something affordable to many people is a very costly sport. Actually if you think about it the word "evolved" in terms to bowling actually means "easier".
As far as the golf analogy is concerned, there are some good points there, but the cost to play golf is probably double to ten times more than bowling. My league fees are roughly 13-15 dollars (I know that is fairly cheap), but 18 holes with a cart, is gonna cost me $50 -$100. The cost of a new set of woods and irons is gonna cost you $1000 - $2000 for everything ... new driver, 3 wood, hybrid, irons, putter, etc... How many bowling balls can you buy with that? I know bowling balls don't last as long as clubs (for most of us), but even a dozen titleist pro v1's is gonna cost you 40-50$.
So I am just saying, I don't think the cost of bowling is far out of whack with the cost of golf. Of course you can point out ways to save in both ... no doubt. Just that my point is that they are comparable in price .. and I think bowling in general is cheaper. And if you can make that driver and clubs last you ten years, you can probably make 5-10 balls last for quite some time.
As far as evolving, it has happened in every sport. Take golf for instance (Since I am on the subject). If you don't think golf is easier today than it was 20 years ago, you should go play with some blades, and persimmon woods and try and keep up. Even courses around here continue to make the course easier over time to "speed up play". Sports have a strong component of competition to them, and as long as that is the case, people are going to continue to make advances that will change the sport by making the sport easier to the average joe. Lots of people don't like it, and I understand that, but you need to evolve with it or move over, because the old days aren't coming back. And I am sure I am not saying anything that most of us already know.
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An interesting point made by someone up-threat. That I see repeated in different posts about leagues. Well the 180 guys or the 210 guys beat us with their hdcp.
How come the 180 or 210 guys are not allowed to win a league. Why are they always supposed to be the donators?
It's been proven year after year after year that the highest average teams will "normally" win leagues. But heaven forbid if your team happens to be the one who gets beat by the handicap team that week.
I don't understand that mentality. Please explain why a 180 average bowler is supposed to come bowl league every week and pay the same $20-$25 a week in fees, just to donate to the high average team profit margin.
Every league MUST have donators. Well, what if the highest average team finished dead last, and got last place prize money. You think they would come back and bowl the league the following year. I doubt it. But yet the high average teams expect the low average teams to do that every year.
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What a boring, heard-a-thousand-times, emotional rant that will absolutely do nothing to change bowling. The USBA won't answer my letter. Boohoo. What are you not understanding when 80% of "bowlers" are once a month recreation bowlers or 140-150 avg. mixed-league bowlers and that is who USBC caters to?
Lane conditions are lane conditions. Get over it. Find a tougher shot league to bowl in or use a weaker ball on house shots.
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Plain and simple 90% of all bowlers WANT the great wall. From a center's point of view how can we not give them what they want?? Should we alienate them and then be forced to close our doors?? Now I AGREE 100% with trying to bring integrity back to our game, but unfortunately the damage has been done and I don't think it will ever get to the point of return.
Side note - I sent USBC 2 separate questions regarding their website and a rules question. I received excellent service from them with 24 hours.
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Plain and simple 90% of all bowlers WANT the great wall. From a center's point of view how can we not give them what they want?? Should we alienate them and then be forced to close our doors?? Now I AGREE 100% with trying to bring integrity back to our game, but unfortunately the damage has been done and I don't think it will ever get to the point of return.
Side note - I sent USBC 2 separate questions regarding their website and a rules question. I received excellent service from them with 24 hours.
When Golf went to huge Drivers with giant sweet spots, and Tennis went from small wooden rackets to Giant, light weight cannons, did the other sports forums talk about the demise of their respective sports and the loss of integrity? Just curious. Has the integrity of those sports been compromised because it is now easier for the average Joe to serve 120 mph or hit a drive 300 yards?
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Plain and simple 90% of all bowlers WANT the great wall. From a center's point of view how can we not give them what they want?? Should we alienate them and then be forced to close our doors?? Now I AGREE 100% with trying to bring integrity back to our game, but unfortunately the damage has been done and I don't think it will ever get to the point of return.
Side note - I sent USBC 2 separate questions regarding their website and a rules question. I received excellent service from them with 24 hours.
When Golf went to huge Drivers with giant sweet spots, and Tennis went from small wooden rackets to Giant, light weight cannons, did the other sports forums talk about the demise of their respective sports and the loss of integrity? Just curious. Has the integrity of those sports been compromised because it is now easier for the average Joe to serve 120 mph or hit a drive 300 yards?
Weird thing about bowling vs. golf. I'll preface this by saying i'm not an avid golfer but i enjoy playing once in a while. Seems to me, generally speaking, people want to play the toughest golf courses but dont want to play on the toughest lanes. Now maybe this has to do with the scenery of a golf course, but really just a generalized observation. I know for me and golf, I need open fairways for obvious reasons. I played an upscale course a while back and it was way out of my league and I would not go back. Now if I were really into golf I would get lessons and go back to try to tackle it again. Some people don't really want to work to get better at bowling, they want a social evening with friends. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
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Plain and simple 90% of all bowlers WANT the great wall. From a center's point of view how can we not give them what they want?? Should we alienate them and then be forced to close our doors?? Now I AGREE 100% with trying to bring integrity back to our game, but unfortunately the damage has been done and I don't think it will ever get to the point of return.
Side note - I sent USBC 2 separate questions regarding their website and a rules question. I received excellent service from them with 24 hours.
When Golf went to huge Drivers with giant sweet spots, and Tennis went from small wooden rackets to Giant, light weight cannons, did the other sports forums talk about the demise of their respective sports and the loss of integrity? Just curious. Has the integrity of those sports been compromised because it is now easier for the average Joe to serve 120 mph or hit a drive 300 yards?
Weird thing about bowling vs. golf. I'll preface this by saying i'm not an avid golfer but i enjoy playing once in a while. Seems to me, generally speaking, people want to play the toughest golf courses but dont want to play on the toughest lanes. Now maybe this has to do with the scenery of a golf course, but really just a generalized observation. I know for me and golf, I need open fairways for obvious reasons. I played an upscale course a while back and it was way out of my league and I would not go back. Now if I were really into golf I would get lessons and go back to try to tackle it again. Some people don't really want to work to get better at bowling, they want a social evening with friends. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
I agree, but those golf courses are all kind of unique. You get to see some of them on TV. They offer a once in a lifetime challenge. I think for some, bowling at the national stadium is sort of like that ... but not exactly. With bowling, most centers are generally the same. I think if my golf league had to play from the tips of one of the hardest courses in the country on a regular basis, it would probably give me second thoughts about playing because I couldn't afford all the golf balls. Not everyone aspires to be the best golfer in the world. Some just want to go play and have fun ... and the same probably holds true for bowling.
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I agree with some of the other folks. Say want you want, but nothing will change.
Very few bowlers want to bowl on a hard shot. Today the norm is to bowl one league and average over 200 and think you are good. Make the shot a bit harder and you will see 20 or more higher average bowlers at the desk complaining. If the center puts down a harder shot, the bowlers will leave. This, in my opinion, is why bowling is considered a recreational activity. Something that is easy and makes you feel good when you leave.
Now, I may be a fluke, but I can not hit the easy shots. I leave tons of corner pins and splits. Yes, this can be attributed to equipment and me being stubborn with not changing my hand position. Put down a harder shot, and I will bowl with the best of them. One last thing about easy shots, if the shot was that easy, then you would have a multitude of bowlers averaging over 270 and that hasn't happened yet. (give it a few more years)
Unfortunately, the highest score you can get is 300 and there are no extra points for style, and being able to repeat shots.
Years ago, ABC opened up the flood gates and let the manufacturers develop and sell extremely powerfull bowling balls. These balls needed less skill in order for them to hook and carry strikes. Today, the manufacturers are bascially controlling our sport. USBC can not stop them, although they have made feable attempts. Factor in, synthetic lanes and oiling machines that can duplicate the same pattern day after day and you have the modern game of hight scores and averages. It is what it is, we can do nothing to stop it.
So, bowling has become a recreational activity. Go out and bowl a few games, have a few beers, tell some jokes and go home happy.
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Just a thought on the whole easy vs tough conditions.
It's not whether the shot is easy or hard, it's the fact it's the same pattern week after week.
You play on any pattern long enough, you get use to it and the scores go right back up.
They showed that in the PBA back when they started using harder patterns. Everyone was talking about how high the scores were, so they went to harder patterns.
The scores dropped for a few weeks, then rose right back up. They said it was because they kept using the same patterns over and over and they got use to them.
Instead of worrying about having a harder shot, why not just vary patterns.
You could have 3 or 4 "THS" patterns that you had to play a different line from week to week but still a "easy " shot.
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Just a thought on the whole easy vs tough conditions.
It's not whether the shot is easy or hard, it's the fact it's the same pattern week after week.
You play on any pattern long enough, you get use to it and the scores go right back up.
They showed that in the PBA back when they started using harder patterns. Everyone was talking about how high the scores were, so they went to harder patterns.
The scores dropped for a few weeks, then rose right back up. They said it was because they kept using the same patterns over and over and they got use to them.
Instead of worrying about having a harder shot, why not just vary patterns.
You could have 3 or 4 "THS" patterns that you had to play a different line from week to week but still a "easy " shot.
I like the idea...maybe force leagues to use the USBC Red, White, and Blue patterns on a rotating basis. This could help level the playing field somewhat. At least you wouldn't have centers putting out the easiest pattern possible and everyone in the country is bowling on the same condition for the most part. I realize topography, surface type, humidity, etc., etc. is going to vary but I feel like it's a great starting point. Easy conditions and monster hooking balls are here to stay...the least the USBC could do is make everyone play on the same patterns for league.
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Just a thought on the whole easy vs tough conditions.
It's not whether the shot is easy or hard, it's the fact it's the same pattern week after week.
You play on any pattern long enough, you get use to it and the scores go right back up.
They showed that in the PBA back when they started using harder patterns. Everyone was talking about how high the scores were, so they went to harder patterns.
The scores dropped for a few weeks, then rose right back up. They said it was because they kept using the same patterns over and over and they got use to them.
Instead of worrying about having a harder shot, why not just vary patterns.
You could have 3 or 4 "THS" patterns that you had to play a different line from week to week but still a "easy " shot.
I like the idea...maybe force leagues to use the USBC Red, White, and Blue patterns on a rotating basis. This could help level the playing field somewhat. At least you wouldn't have centers putting out the easiest pattern possible and everyone in the country is bowling on the same condition for the most part. I realize topography, surface type, humidity, etc., etc. is going to vary but I feel like it's a great starting point. Easy conditions and monster hooking balls are here to stay...the least the USBC could do is make everyone play on the same patterns for league.
I'll agree a rotating pattern might be nice and may bring scores down a little. BUT what will end up happening is people simply wont sanction. Again most people just want the recreation of bowling now a days, nothing wrong with that. It's a fact that the recreational bowler outweighs the serious to slightly competetive bowler.
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PEOPLE,
Bowling, as a sport, is done for.
With ball manufacturers in charge of the rules, and proprietors who cater to the masses of recreational bowlers who want to be great without the work, bowling as more than just a past time, is gone.
I agree with the poster before me that said 90% of bowlers DON'T want to be challenged, and with 100% of the owners wanting to stay in business, you can bet your a** it isn't going to happen any time soon.
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I keep seeing Bowling compared to Golf, but to me it is more like Softball. We like throwing strikes/hitting home runs, so the majority of us buy the equipment and play where we have the most success. For Bowling it's the easy oil patterns, for Softball, it's the closer fences. Either way, we can drink beer and have a great time with our friends while doing it.
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That's a decent comparison Milo! Slow pitch softball and THS bowling. Back in our day if you were a decent athlete/baseball player you opted for fast pitch softball. Slow pitch was for old men over 50.
Now fast pitch is pretty dead nationwide as players went to the least common denominator slow pitch....they didn't want to be challenged.
I keep seeing Bowling compared to Golf, but to me it is more like Softball. We like throwing strikes/hitting home runs, so the majority of us buy the equipment and play where we have the most success. For Bowling it's the easy oil patterns, for Softball, it's the closer fences. Either way, we can drink beer and have a great time with our friends while doing it.
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I understand your stance, but I have seen one of the arguments in your original post repeated over and over, and I just don't believe it. I have never met a bowler who quit because the scores were too high or the shot was too easy. Where are all these bowlers who are leaving the sport because it is too easy?
I am not trying to argue here, but I never said easy conditions are driving bowlers away. They are leaving for a myriad of reasons. My point was that the usbc isn't governing anything when they allow the centers to dictate how the game is played. And they don't even put up any argument to defend themselves. I have been bowling in PBAX and TEAMUSAX leagues since they showed up around here. We can barely drum up enough bowlers to have the leagues.
Now, I'm sorry but you are going to have to go a long way to convince me the 140 average bowler would see much difference if they were bowling on a 5:1 ratio pattern over one that is 10:1. They have a tendency to throw the ball straight. It may even be plastic. If they would make 60% of the spares they would raise the average 20 pins.
If high scores aren't driving them away or drawing them in, WHY NOT TRY A DIFFERENT APPROACH? How many more years of decline does it take? I'm not crying because they didn't answer my letter. Nor am I ranting or whining due to the lack of bowlers. My displeasure lies with the usbc being a doormat in front of the BPAA office down the hall.
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Instead of flatter pattern go the cheaper route and put out a lot less oil. There are always ways to take the equipment out of play. Flat patterns are on of those and so is less oil. Reverse blocks are another you rarely see anymore. Reactive resin is not the problem. Really high scores can be achieved with any surface that is made and has been done in the past. In the reactive era that has increased along with changes in the game as well. If scores was the only problem why do so many bowlers nation wide always complain about the shot they bowl on?
The other problem is not score related, it is economic. There is a large decline in jobs and a large incline in peoples cost of living. So much that many people can't afford multiple leagues like they use to or even one league. People are making budget cuts and bowling falls under that category as well. this applies to many other businesses as well if you haven't noticed. If you don't believe that then you are very naive.
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I actually quit bowling back in april 2005... why?? because the lane conditions became too easy... and the lack of enjoyment from seeing honor scores bowled..
this year i joined a scratch league that is 50miles away, while the local bowling alley is 4miles away...
Why did I leave ?? stupid easy bowling conditions.. Last yr, i basically bowled when i felt like it.... some days i would just throw my plastic ball.. and still shoot 570... some days, i would actually feel like bowling and would shoot 670 or so...
So now i am bowling in a house that has tougher conditions, a bigger prize fund!! and better bowlers..... who wouldnt want that?????
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An interesting point made by someone up-threat. That I see repeated in different posts about leagues. Well the 180 guys or the 210 guys beat us with their hdcp.
How come the 180 or 210 guys are not allowed to win a league. Why are they always supposed to be the donators?
It's been proven year after year after year that the highest average teams will "normally" win leagues. But heaven forbid if your team happens to be the one who gets beat by the handicap team that week.
I don't understand that mentality. Please explain why a 180 average bowler is supposed to come bowl league every week and pay the same $20-$25 a week in fees, just to donate to the high average team profit margin.
Every league MUST have donators. Well, what if the highest average team finished dead last, and got last place prize money. You think they would come back and bowl the league the following year. I doubt it. But yet the high average teams expect the low average teams to do that every year.
I see your point and will respond. I NEVER said anywhere that a 180 guy HAS TO BE a donator. I simply told the truth and said that the lane conditions are the problem and here is why. I am just citing examples. You talk to any 230 guy and ask him if a 210 guy should get 20-30 sticks of handicap and most will say no. On the flip side, you ask a 180 guy if he should only get 20-30 sticks and then they will say no. My point is that if you toughen the condition up, you shorten that gap from 180 to 230 down to say 180 down to 210-215. Neither side should be "given" a guaranteed shot at the rolloffs. Both sould have to earn it.
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Yes, David, it can be that easy and that nice. Don't really know why people keep butting their heads against the wall on this. Find a tougher league and house and quit bitching about what the rest of the sheeple are bowling on.
I actually quit bowling back in april 2005... why?? because the lane conditions became too easy... and the lack of enjoyment from seeing honor scores bowled..
this year i joined a scratch league that is 50miles away, while the local bowling alley is 4miles away...
Why did I leave ?? stupid easy bowling conditions.. Last yr, i basically bowled when i felt like it.... some days i would just throw my plastic ball.. and still shoot 570... some days, i would actually feel like bowling and would shoot 670 or so...
So now i am bowling in a house that has tougher conditions, a bigger prize fund!! and better bowlers..... who wouldnt want that?????
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Legit scratch bowlers have the advantage over the lower average bowlers in handicap leagues. That is the way it is. Even on tougher conditions.
handicap 80% of 220
180 average
220-180=40 40 x.08= 32 180+32= 212
The 180 average bowler has to bowl 8 pins above their average to get 220 with handicap.
The 230 average bowler has to bowl 10 pins below their average to get 220. Averages are just that, and on average the 230 average bowler will win more in a head to head against the lower average bowler because the lower average has to actually shoot above their average and have help of the higher average bowler shooting below theirs in order to win.
As a scratch bowler I don't b%tch about handicap. I don't b%tch about easy houses and I don't b%tch about tough houses. I do b%tch about equipment getting damaged or houses that wax their approaches.(no joke) Other then that, take pride in what you bowl and go do your best.
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Yes, David, it can be that easy and that nice. Don't really know why people keep butting their heads against the wall on this. Find a tougher league and house and quit bitching about what the rest of the sheeple are bowling on.
uote]
Long Gone Daddy,
Well i think the reason people butting their heads against the wall is because in many area's of the bowling world they might not have a option to bowl at a place that has a tougher shot...
before 2005, I had several places to bowl at within 30miles of where i lived.. And while every place had their own type of shot, none of them was actually tough.. Yes one place might be a bit tougher than the other, but the pin difference might only be 10pins per game... And that was usually because of not kicking out a 10pin or two...
Now I am also not saying people want to make the conditions extreme... i think people as a whole, want the ceiling for the average joe's brought down to somewhere around 210..
And as i have often said about a place I bowled at years ago, if you averaged over 200 in said place ( from 96 to 2000 ) people knew that you could bowl well... or that you knew what you was doing to bowl well at said place..
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David,
Those people will have to make lemonade with the lemons they have been given. Use weaker balls. Move to another area (drastic to be sure but if somebody is passionate enough......).
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As has been pointed out here and in several related threads, the decline in league bowling is all about a rapid change in socioeconomic life. The stable middle class that sustained bowling for so many years is disappearing.
Regardless, all this talk about higher scoring chasing away bowlers is bogus. Unless you're averaging 240 and beyond, you have no reason to have the word 'easy' in your vocabulary. For 99.9% of bowlers, there are opportunities for challenge and improvement, even on cake.
If you insist on bowling 'challenging' conditions, there are several on-going tournament options -- State, Nationals, local PBA/Sport shot competitions, and PBA Regionals. It's there if you really want it.
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If a bowlers problem is that the house is to easy then maybe try to get the house to change the shot and if no one that bowls there is behind that idea then go to a different house thats more difficult or bowling in a sport shot/PBA league. Maybe bring equipment to league that is a little weak or strong but try to make it work anyways by changing speed or hand position or whatever.
Not trying to sound cock but i got bored of bowling to at one point. Avg 210ish on a house shot was getting boring. I decided to bowl a PBA experience league instead of a regular league and i tell you i had never focused so hard consistently from week to week to try and avg just a 190. After that league i went back to normal house shot leagues and brought with me the focus i developed and ended the season avg 224. Theres always challanges in any house you go to just some of them you have to create yourself and some the house will provide like the PBA league.