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Author Topic: Unanswered question to the usbc  (Read 9744 times)

no300tj

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Unanswered question to the usbc
« on: September 18, 2012, 09:08:31 PM »
Kathy, when will the USBC actually begin to protect the integrity of bowling by requiring we play on proper lane conditions instead of walled patterns that create artificial scoring levels? As bowlers we have no voice in these matters. And our sanctioning body says the proprietors can do whatever they want. How is this governing what goes on? As it stands now, bowling is bleeding members. Since the advent of reactive resin, the centers have tried to outscore one another. This philosophy hasn't stopped the mass exodus of bowlers. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. After 15+ years no one has learned a thing. When will the USBC grow a spine and DO something about it? Mandate flatter patterns at all times. Who cares if we lose bowlers, they are leaving anyway. You might as well support those that care about what it is bowling is supposed to be about. Keep in mind, they are screwing with your livelihood. At what point in time is the number of sanctioned bowlers low enough, that the USBC will cease to be necessary? T.J. Mittelstetter, Jr. 2358-6198

The above was sent to the usbc after my post about league resignation. As of today, I have not received a response. I'm not exactly sure what I expected, but I think I received the most likely result. Indifference. I'm not the greatest bowler. You can look up my lack of accomplishments if you wish, but you would think these people would want to open dialogue with the average bowlers across the country. Apparently, my rose colored glasses are making see people that care. Not encouraging.

 

webejr04

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 10:27:06 AM »
GO TO HAMMERBOWLING.COM LOOK AT SAVE BOWLING ON THEIR SITE ABOUT THE SKILL CAP. THE ONLY THING THAT USBC AND THE PBA HAVE AGREED ON RECENTLY IS MAKING SURE THAT THE EQUIPMENT IS RELEASED THE SAME DAY TO THE PUBLIC AS IT IS TO THE PBA PLAYERS AND ITS MEMBERS. THAT WAS SOMETHING I ADDRESSED THAT GOT DONE RECENTLY. YOU CAN EMAIL TOM CLARK VIA FACEBOOK HE MAYBE ABLE TO HELP YOU FURTHER

Good Times Good Times

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 10:46:50 AM »
GO TO HAMMERBOWLING.COM LOOK AT SAVE BOWLING ON THEIR SITE ABOUT THE SKILL CAP. THE ONLY THING THAT USBC AND THE PBA HAVE AGREED ON RECENTLY IS MAKING SURE THAT THE EQUIPMENT IS RELEASED THE SAME DAY TO THE PUBLIC AS IT IS TO THE PBA PLAYERS AND ITS MEMBERS. THAT WAS SOMETHING I ADDRESSED THAT GOT DONE RECENTLY. YOU CAN EMAIL TOM CLARK VIA FACEBOOK HE MAYBE ABLE TO HELP YOU FURTHER

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milorafferty

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 10:52:24 AM »
I think USBC has learned that you can't make all the bowlers happy all the time.  ;D
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dR3w

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2012, 11:04:37 AM »
Kathy, when will the USBC actually begin to protect the integrity of bowling by requiring we play on proper lane conditions instead of walled patterns that create artificial scoring levels? As bowlers we have no voice in these matters. And our sanctioning body says the proprietors can do whatever they want. How is this governing what goes on? As it stands now, bowling is bleeding members. Since the advent of reactive resin, the centers have tried to outscore one another. This philosophy hasn't stopped the mass exodus of bowlers. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. After 15+ years no one has learned a thing. When will the USBC grow a spine and DO something about it? Mandate flatter patterns at all times. Who cares if we lose bowlers, they are leaving anyway. You might as well support those that care about what it is bowling is supposed to be about. Keep in mind, they are screwing with your livelihood. At what point in time is the number of sanctioned bowlers low enough, that the USBC will cease to be necessary? T.J. Mittelstetter, Jr. 2358-6198

The above was sent to the usbc after my post about league resignation. As of today, I have not received a response. I'm not exactly sure what I expected, but I think I received the most likely result. Indifference. I'm not the greatest bowler. You can look up my lack of accomplishments if you wish, but you would think these people would want to open dialogue with the average bowlers across the country. Apparently, my rose colored glasses are making see people that care. Not encouraging.

I understand your stance, but I have seen one of the arguments in your original post repeated over and over, and I just don't believe it.  I have never met a bowler who quit because the scores were too high or the shot was too easy.  Where are all these bowlers who are leaving the sport because it is too easy?

I see bowlers who leave because of health, age, cost ... but not because the shot is too easy.  I see a youth that cares about video games, computers and whatever else, that don't grow up in bowling alleys, much like past generations.  A lot of sports (little league baseball, etc ..) in our area of dwindling because kids don't grow up playing sports as much as in the past.  When I was a kid, video games didn't exist, or I am sure I know I would have been playing them often.  Now I am not saying all kids avoid sports, but today there are so many other options than bowling.

I see bowling is waning, and league bowling may someday go extinct, but I don't think that the easy lanes conditions are what are causing people to flock from the sport.  It could be a very small reason, but not the main reason.

If I am wrong I will admit it.  If I really thought toughening up the patterns would bring more people to the sport, I would be the first one to go with it.  I would love to see bowling thrive.

If people want tougher patterns, they can find them.  They are harder to find, no doubt .. and that is because most league bowlers don't want them.  Personally I think mandating tougher conditions will cause league bowling to die a faster death.  People will get frustrated. 

Please show me where my opinion holds no water.

Just my 2 cents.

TWOHAND834

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2012, 11:54:42 AM »
Kathy, when will the USBC actually begin to protect the integrity of bowling by requiring we play on proper lane conditions instead of walled patterns that create artificial scoring levels? As bowlers we have no voice in these matters. And our sanctioning body says the proprietors can do whatever they want. How is this governing what goes on? As it stands now, bowling is bleeding members. Since the advent of reactive resin, the centers have tried to outscore one another. This philosophy hasn't stopped the mass exodus of bowlers. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. After 15+ years no one has learned a thing. When will the USBC grow a spine and DO something about it? Mandate flatter patterns at all times. Who cares if we lose bowlers, they are leaving anyway. You might as well support those that care about what it is bowling is supposed to be about. Keep in mind, they are screwing with your livelihood. At what point in time is the number of sanctioned bowlers low enough, that the USBC will cease to be necessary? T.J. Mittelstetter, Jr. 2358-6198

The above was sent to the usbc after my post about league resignation. As of today, I have not received a response. I'm not exactly sure what I expected, but I think I received the most likely result. Indifference. I'm not the greatest bowler. You can look up my lack of accomplishments if you wish, but you would think these people would want to open dialogue with the average bowlers across the country. Apparently, my rose colored glasses are making see people that care. Not encouraging.

I understand your stance, but I have seen one of the arguments in your original post repeated over and over, and I just don't believe it.  I have never met a bowler who quit because the scores were too high or the shot was too easy.  Where are all these bowlers who are leaving the sport because it is too easy?

I see bowlers who leave because of health, age, cost ... but not because the shot is too easy.  I see a youth that cares about video games, computers and whatever else, that don't grow up in bowling alleys, much like past generations.  A lot of sports (little league baseball, etc ..) in our area of dwindling because kids don't grow up playing sports as much as in the past.  When I was a kid, video games didn't exist, or I am sure I know I would have been playing them often.  Now I am not saying all kids avoid sports, but today there are so many other options than bowling.

I see bowling is waning, and league bowling may someday go extinct, but I don't think that the easy lanes conditions are what are causing people to flock from the sport.  It could be a very small reason, but not the main reason.

If I am wrong I will admit it.  If I really thought toughening up the patterns would bring more people to the sport, I would be the first one to go with it.  I would love to see bowling thrive.

If people want tougher patterns, they can find them.  They are harder to find, no doubt .. and that is because most league bowlers don't want them.  Personally I think mandating tougher conditions will cause league bowling to die a faster death.  People will get frustrated. 

Please show me where my opinion holds no water.

Just my 2 cents.


My 2 cents is that house conditions are part of the problem; though not the entire problem.  Isnt it ironic how the biggest amateur tournament of the year is on tougher conditions with ZERO handicap?  The problem with house conditions, is the 230-240 guy doesnt want a 200-210 guy to be given 30 pins of handicap because that guy is just as capable of popping off a 240-250 as the guy who is at 230.  So they leave the league that gives handicap based off of a higher numbers.  On the flip side, the guy at 180 refuses to bowl in leagues that have 230 guys in it because he has no shot at being competitive.  Went through it the past 2 weeks.  We are bowling against guys that have 30 pins a game and shooting 720 and we got smoked even though we bowled over our average as a team.  Out of 70 total points the past 2 weeks, we only won 23 and we have bowled well.  League bowling is HURTING our sport.  Money leagues consist of a lot of drama and handicap leagues are ridiculous because the 220 guy "doesnt belong". 

Money is another huge factor for the decline as well.  Lineages paid in leagues to the center are going into the $11-12.00 range which means people now have to fork out $25-30/week to have a "money" league.  People dont have $100/week to put towards bowling anymore with the economy in the shape it is in.  If you get into a handicap league and pay only $15.00/week; even if you fill the house the prize fund is terrible. 

IMO........if the USBC steps in and starts conducting their leagues like they do their tournament, I think bowling can thrive and grow.  I am not saying lay down the USBC Tourmament shot for league play.  But, I do think they need to find a happy medium between their tournament shot and what centers lay down for house shots.  Then, center managers will have to decide whether to sanction their centers or just be an "entertainment center" and rely on open play.  However, I have seen centers that had very little league play to speak of and most of those places ended up shutting their doors permanently. 
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trash heap

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 12:35:10 PM »
You still have a lot of bowling centers and leagues promoting the sport like they did 30 years ago. Which is doing nothing. 30 - 20 years ago there were waiting lists for leagues. Centers were filled. I recall at my local center 20 years ago, you had to make a reservation to open after the Friday night league.

People liked to bowl back then, and I still think they do today? So what changed?

Price? Well maybe, but 20 years ago open play on a Friday night was $1.75 a game. It is now $3.00. A $1.25 increase in twenty years is not breaking the bank in my area. So I think price isn't the issue, what the issue has others stated before. I trully believe it that the money is going else where.

1. Cell Phones: I know plenty of families (mine included) that their kids have cell phones. Not a cheap thing to own. If you are paying for 4 - 6 phones in your household it probably doesn't leave too much money for things like (a weekly night out of bowling).

2. Internet and TV (Cable/Satellite) has greatly increased in price over the years.  Lots of people get packages like NFL or some sports package. Owning a DVR costs money.

Most people only have so much free money left to spend. These two areas have taken a lot of that money. I know people that must have the latest greatest phone. They spend hundreds of dollars to be the first with the new gadget.

Bowling is not going to get back to its glory days. Those days are long gone. But bowling can get stable in today's society. So where do you start.

Youth Programs. Ever notice that the centers with strong youth programs have strong adult leagues. Those with poor youth leagues usually have diminishing adult leagues. If center cators to it's young customers, it can be big for the bowling center in the long run.

Offer Family discounts to open bowling. Maybe centers offer things like a family bowling package. If the center has food. Offer a Large Pizza and Drinks and discount bowling for a Family night out.  What I usually see, is a bowling center will try something like that, and expect the place to fill up the next couple of weeks, and when it doesn't they stop with the special. You got to hang in there. If people have fun and its a good time they will come back, and usually tell their friends.

As you get open bowlers in the center, then there is a greater chance of them wanting to join a league. Maybe you get a group of people coming in regularly. Have them keep there same names and keep a record of there average for the course of the year. Recognize them over the loud speaker throwing a high game or something.

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dR3w

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2012, 01:27:50 PM »

My 2 cents is that house conditions are part of the problem; though not the entire problem.  Isnt it ironic how the biggest amateur tournament of the year is on tougher conditions with ZERO handicap?  The problem with house conditions, is the 230-240 guy doesnt want a 200-210 guy to be given 30 pins of handicap because that guy is just as capable of popping off a 240-250 as the guy who is at 230.  So they leave the league that gives handicap based off of a higher numbers.  On the flip side, the guy at 180 refuses to bowl in leagues that have 230 guys in it because he has no shot at being competitive.  Went through it the past 2 weeks.  We are bowling against guys that have 30 pins a game and shooting 720 and we got smoked even though we bowled over our average as a team.  Out of 70 total points the past 2 weeks, we only won 23 and we have bowled well.  League bowling is HURTING our sport.  Money leagues consist of a lot of drama and handicap leagues are ridiculous because the 220 guy "doesnt belong". 

Money is another huge factor for the decline as well.  Lineages paid in leagues to the center are going into the $11-12.00 range which means people now have to fork out $25-30/week to have a "money" league.  People dont have $100/week to put towards bowling anymore with the economy in the shape it is in.  If you get into a handicap league and pay only $15.00/week; even if you fill the house the prize fund is terrible. 

IMO........if the USBC steps in and starts conducting their leagues like they do their tournament, I think bowling can thrive and grow.  I am not saying lay down the USBC Tourmament shot for league play.  But, I do think they need to find a happy medium between their tournament shot and what centers lay down for house shots.  Then, center managers will have to decide whether to sanction their centers or just be an "entertainment center" and rely on open play.  However, I have seen centers that had very little league play to speak of and most of those places ended up shutting their doors permanently. 


I can say that anything is part of the problem.  My point was simply that people always say that bowling is waning because the shots are too easy.  I just don't personally see any evidence to back that up. 

I don't think it is ironic that Nationals puts down a difficult shot.  But how many people bowl in leagues in the US, and how many go to Nationals?  The ratio is very small.  You don't have 50% of leagues dreaming about going to Nationals to bowl on a fair shot.  Do I think it is fair, yes.  Do I think Leagues would thrive with tougher shots no.  Would I personally bowl in a league that has tougher conditions on purpose, I already do.

I agree that money is an issue, and maybe to an extent the economy, but if it really was the economy then wouldn't league membership go up during good economic times, and fall during bad times?  Or maybe even stay steady during good times and decrease during bad?  I think that bowling has seen a steady decline all along.

Lineage isn't the only money factor anymore.  Balls cost a lot more, and most bowlers have more than one, whereas 20-30 years ago, most people had 1.

I really can't say much about money leagues and such, because they don't really exist in my area.  The best bowlers in town average in the high 220's, and there aren't enough of them interested in bowling scratch or for big money.   And Handicap is a topic for another 1000 post thread.  That topic will never change.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative, I just want to see someone show me how easy shots are the cause of the decline of league membership. 

edpup316

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2012, 05:09:31 AM »
As far as im concerned money is the almost the whole problem. I live in the bay area which has a high cost of living. I would say that the avg cost of a one game here is about $5 with the highest being $5.75 and at my house if your a league bowler you get a discount... $3.75 geee thanks. Over the last 2 years lineage has gone up 2.50 in all my leagues. This place is packed like every night too so its not like the owners hurting for money goodness sake he just opened a resturant across the way from the bowling alley and they dont oil the lane on the until 5 o'clock during the week and only oil the lanes they need to on saturday mornings for jr. league so i can never use my super sweet league bowler discount cause the lanes are all burnt out. And for the most part as far as lane maintainece goes this is how most the alleys in my area oil the lanes so anybody that whats to go during the day for serious practice can't, they have to wait for league to finish at night and hope they dont get a pair thats broke down to bad.

BobOhio

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2012, 07:06:10 AM »
Maybe you could use the times it's not re-oiled to practice a different release or use different equipment in case you go to a tournament that does not have a league wall.
A very smart guy told me once that there's never an unplayable shot, just bowlers that need to learn how to bowl on them.
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Russell

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2012, 07:46:26 AM »
Maybe you could use the times it's not re-oiled to practice a different release or use different equipment in case you go to a tournament that does not have a league wall.
A very smart guy told me once that there's never an unplayable shot, just bowlers that need to learn how to bowl on them.

I disagree....in the modern game you NEVER see the "2 days of no oil house balls up the middle shot", so what good will practicing on it do?  How often do you need to make the ball hook at 20 feet and then back up into the pins?  To bowl on this sort of shot one needs to practice bad habits...things not only don't benefit you in tournaments, but hurt your regular game.

I think the issue is the balls...and specifically the lack of longevity.  Think about how much it costs to be competitive now.  How many balls you would be forced to buy each year to stay remotely competitive with the better scratch bowlers in your area.  In the past (just 10 years ago), balls didn't die every 100 games so you could own 4/5 balls and replace as you wanted.  Now you HAVE to replace them once or twice a year, at a retail cost of $1,000.

I have used the analogy before, but I have played golf since 5 years old.  I use a 10 year old Titleist 983k driver, the same driver I have had for that whole time.  When I get on a launch monitor the numbers on newer drivers are nearly the same.  If I buy a new driver it will be out of choice, not necessity.  If my 983k suddenly started going 50 yards shorter and I was forced to spend $350+ on a new driver every 6 months....I would have quit playing 10 years ago and never thought twice about it.

trash heap

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2012, 08:32:57 AM »
I have used the analogy before, but I have played golf since 5 years old.  I use a 10 year old Titleist 983k driver, the same driver I have had for that whole time.  When I get on a launch monitor the numbers on newer drivers are nearly the same.  If I buy a new driver it will be out of choice, not necessity.  If my 983k suddenly started going 50 yards shorter and I was forced to spend $350+ on a new driver every 6 months....I would have quit playing 10 years ago and never thought twice about it.

Its funny how bowlers are okay today with replacing a bowling ball. The ball industry did well selling this to many bowlers. Of course, just as many (or not more) didn't buy into this philosphy and left the game.

Really if you think of it. Everyone states the phrase the game has "evolved". All this evolution in the sport has cost a lot of money. What was once something affordable to many people is a very costly sport. Actually if you think about it the word "evolved" in terms to bowling actually means "easier".

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Spider Man

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2012, 11:02:53 AM »

I agree. People are leaving due to having no job, no time to commit to a long season, indifference, too old, price of gas. Also I see teams leaving due to disgust over conditions of the house (lanes breaking down non stop) and b/c the current league is too small - so they go for greener pastures. I haven't heard the easy shot mentioned much.





Kathy, when will the USBC actually begin to protect the integrity of bowling by requiring we play on proper lane conditions instead of walled patterns that create artificial scoring levels? As bowlers we have no voice in these matters. And our sanctioning body says the proprietors can do whatever they want. How is this governing what goes on? As it stands now, bowling is bleeding members. Since the advent of reactive resin, the centers have tried to outscore one another. This philosophy hasn't stopped the mass exodus of bowlers. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. After 15+ years no one has learned a thing. When will the USBC grow a spine and DO something about it? Mandate flatter patterns at all times. Who cares if we lose bowlers, they are leaving anyway. You might as well support those that care about what it is bowling is supposed to be about. Keep in mind, they are screwing with your livelihood. At what point in time is the number of sanctioned bowlers low enough, that the USBC will cease to be necessary? T.J. Mittelstetter, Jr. 2358-6198

The above was sent to the usbc after my post about league resignation. As of today, I have not received a response. I'm not exactly sure what I expected, but I think I received the most likely result. Indifference. I'm not the greatest bowler. You can look up my lack of accomplishments if you wish, but you would think these people would want to open dialogue with the average bowlers across the country. Apparently, my rose colored glasses are making see people that care. Not encouraging.

I understand your stance, but I have seen one of the arguments in your original post repeated over and over, and I just don't believe it.  I have never met a bowler who quit because the scores were too high or the shot was too easy.  Where are all these bowlers who are leaving the sport because it is too easy?

I see bowlers who leave because of health, age, cost ... but not because the shot is too easy.  I see a youth that cares about video games, computers and whatever else, that don't grow up in bowling alleys, much like past generations.  A lot of sports (little league baseball, etc ..) in our area of dwindling because kids don't grow up playing sports as much as in the past.  When I was a kid, video games didn't exist, or I am sure I know I would have been playing them often.  Now I am not saying all kids avoid sports, but today there are so many other options than bowling.

I see bowling is waning, and league bowling may someday go extinct, but I don't think that the easy lanes conditions are what are causing people to flock from the sport.  It could be a very small reason, but not the main reason.

If I am wrong I will admit it.  If I really thought toughening up the patterns would bring more people to the sport, I would be the first one to go with it.  I would love to see bowling thrive.

If people want tougher patterns, they can find them.  They are harder to find, no doubt .. and that is because most league bowlers don't want them.  Personally I think mandating tougher conditions will cause league bowling to die a faster death.  People will get frustrated. 

Please show me where my opinion holds no water.

Just my 2 cents.

dR3w

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2012, 11:06:07 AM »
I have used the analogy before, but I have played golf since 5 years old.  I use a 10 year old Titleist 983k driver, the same driver I have had for that whole time.  When I get on a launch monitor the numbers on newer drivers are nearly the same.  If I buy a new driver it will be out of choice, not necessity.  If my 983k suddenly started going 50 yards shorter and I was forced to spend $350+ on a new driver every 6 months....I would have quit playing 10 years ago and never thought twice about it.

Its funny how bowlers are okay today with replacing a bowling ball. The ball industry did well selling this to many bowlers. Of course, just as many (or not more) didn't buy into this philosphy and left the game.

Really if you think of it. Everyone states the phrase the game has "evolved". All this evolution in the sport has cost a lot of money. What was once something affordable to many people is a very costly sport. Actually if you think about it the word "evolved" in terms to bowling actually means "easier".

As far as the golf analogy is concerned, there are some good points there, but the cost to play golf is probably double to ten times more than bowling.  My league fees are roughly 13-15 dollars (I know that is fairly cheap), but 18 holes with a cart, is gonna cost me $50 -$100.  The cost of a new set of woods and irons is gonna cost you $1000 - $2000 for everything ... new driver, 3 wood, hybrid, irons, putter, etc...  How many bowling balls can you buy with that?  I know bowling balls don't last as long as clubs (for most of us), but even a dozen titleist pro v1's is gonna cost you 40-50$.   

So I am just saying, I don't think the cost of bowling is far out of whack with the cost of golf.  Of course you can point out ways to save in both ... no doubt.  Just that my point is that they are comparable in price .. and I think bowling in general is cheaper.  And if you can make that driver and clubs last you ten years, you can probably make 5-10 balls last for quite some time.

As far as evolving, it has happened in every sport.  Take golf for instance (Since I am on the subject).  If you don't think golf is easier today than it was 20 years ago, you should go play with some blades, and persimmon woods and try and keep up.  Even courses around here continue to make the course easier over time to "speed up play".  Sports have a strong component of competition to them, and as long as that is the case, people are going to continue to make advances that will change the sport by making the sport easier to the average joe.  Lots of people don't like it, and I understand that, but you need to evolve with it or move over, because the old days aren't coming back.  And I am sure I am not saying anything that most of us already know.

txbowler

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Re: Unanswered question to the usbc
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2012, 11:36:47 AM »
An interesting point made by someone up-threat.  That I see repeated in different posts about leagues.  Well the 180 guys or the 210 guys beat us with their hdcp.

How come the 180 or 210 guys are not allowed to win a league.  Why are they always supposed to be the donators?

It's been proven year after year after year that the highest average teams will "normally" win leagues.  But heaven forbid if your team happens to be the one who gets beat by the handicap team that week.

I don't understand that mentality.  Please explain why a 180 average bowler is supposed to come bowl league every week and pay the same $20-$25 a week in fees, just to donate to the high average team profit margin.

Every league MUST have donators.  Well, what if the highest average team finished dead last, and got last place prize money.  You think they would come back and bowl the league the following year.  I doubt it.  But yet the high average teams expect the low average teams to do that every year.