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Author Topic: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020  (Read 42006 times)

SVstar34

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Impending Doom

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #136 on: April 25, 2018, 07:11:04 PM »
After 5000 posts, I get to use weight holes. #newusbcrule

tkkshop

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #137 on: April 25, 2018, 07:29:26 PM »
After 5000 posts, I get to use weight holes. #newusbcrule
only at 1500 polish though

Impending Doom

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #138 on: April 25, 2018, 07:55:26 PM »
After 5000 posts, I get to use weight holes. #newusbcrule
only at 1500 polish though

I QUIT!!!

tommygn

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #139 on: April 26, 2018, 09:03:24 AM »
DP3,

The ladies tour uses the same amount or less oil on the lanes as the men's tour, yet their patterns hold up.


The ladies use as strong of layouts, if not stronger than the men do, yet their patterns hold up.


The ladies tour uses as much or often times more surface on their balls then the men do, yet their patterns hold up.


The ladies tour throws high end equipment on their tour at a higher rate than the men do, yet their patterns hold up.


There are very few if any ladies that throw urethane on any regular basis, if ever.


The ladies tour has a lower AVERAGE rev rate than the men's tour.


Kegel has data PROVING that the ladies patterns hold up better than the men's patterns.

Pro Shops sell more high end equipment to league bowlers with lower rev rates, than with a high rev rate, to the fact that design intent of high end product is designed for rev challenged bowlers. Higher rev rate league bowlers gravitate to lower hook potential balls.

All of this will lead a person with common sense to see that the issue of pattern integrity has more to do with rev rate, than it does with the balls "porosity" or "layout", but USBC is attacking the balls. Scratch the knee while it is the elbow that itches. They created this situation by promoting two handed bowling, and offering an avenue to allow bowlers to create more rev rate than what they can without the stability the second hand on the ball allows in the two handed delivery, thus increasing the percentage of higher rev rates. You are always going to have an EJ Tackett or Robert Smith, a Bob Vespi, but now, you have MORE of the high rev rates, because of the promotion of the two handed style.

You see, it has nothing to do with just "whining" about bowlers with a high rev rate, I am doing nothing more than looking at the facts, and forming a LOGICAL conclusion on the said facts that rev rate has more to do with problems of pattern integrity, and the ability to create a stable environment for EVERYONE to be able to showcase their accuracy and repeat-ability. The only way to fix that, is to teach the game from a more traditional style, a style that has longevity and echoes the core foundation of a "lifelong participation" sport; a sport that is the number one participation sport in America. A game that does NOT have corporate America behind it, so you need to be able to make money from it over a longer period of time, because the quick cash grab simply isn't there.



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Good Times Good Times

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #140 on: April 26, 2018, 09:48:21 AM »
The USBC promoted two-handed bowling?  I'm don't disagree they blow the patterns up, but as a more moderate rev player and slower speed isn't the burden on me to deal with it?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 09:50:06 AM by Good Times Good Times »
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tommygn

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #141 on: April 26, 2018, 09:50:17 AM »
The USBC promoted two-handed bowling?

Belmo IS the poster boy of the game.

The USBC has now created two handed clinics coaching videos and spent a good deal of time and money on the bio-mechanics of it.

Yes, they are promoting the style.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 09:54:09 AM by tommygn »
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #142 on: April 26, 2018, 10:00:47 AM »
The USBC promoted two-handed bowling?

Belmo IS the poster boy of the game.

The USBC has now created two handed clinics coaching videos and spent a good deal of time and money on the bio-mechanics of it.

Yes, they are promoting the style.

But as a bowler that is a "shot-maker" and relies on accuracy, isn't the burden on me to adjust?  I've never really been one to put much care into how others deliver the ball.....I've just always thought it was on me to deal with it.  I adjust to the conditions, the conditions don't adjust to me.  If I need to play up the twig, so be it.  If I need to get in to 5th arrow +, so be it.

Take my Nationals crew for example, we do not work together and break down a pair properly.  It would certainly make things easier on everyone but then again, it's just not happening.  It's just not.  I've long since accepted that as part of the deal and if I want to score I have to find a way to work around it/with it.  It just is what it is.  I'm still able to make money at Nationals and in brackets but I do have to work hard and be very aware of what is happening. 

Even though these things affect me, I couldn't support legislation against their personal strategies or method of delivery (that's not me saying that you do or do not).  I DO tell them we should work together but at the end of the day I just have to deal w/what I get.......
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 10:02:39 AM by Good Times Good Times »
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HankScorpio

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #143 on: April 26, 2018, 10:36:54 AM »
DP3,

The ladies tour uses the same amount or less oil on the lanes as the men's tour, yet their patterns hold up.


The ladies use as strong of layouts, if not stronger than the men do, yet their patterns hold up.


The ladies tour uses as much or often times more surface on their balls then the men do, yet their patterns hold up.


The ladies tour throws high end equipment on their tour at a higher rate than the men do, yet their patterns hold up.


There are very few if any ladies that throw urethane on any regular basis, if ever.


The ladies tour has a lower AVERAGE rev rate than the men's tour.


Kegel has data PROVING that the ladies patterns hold up better than the men's patterns.

Pro Shops sell more high end equipment to league bowlers with lower rev rates, than with a high rev rate, to the fact that design intent of high end product is designed for rev challenged bowlers. Higher rev rate league bowlers gravitate to lower hook potential balls.

All of this will lead a person with common sense to see that the issue of pattern integrity has more to do with rev rate, than it does with the balls "porosity" or "layout", but USBC is attacking the balls. Scratch the knee while it is the elbow that itches. They created this situation by promoting two handed bowling, and offering an avenue to allow bowlers to create more rev rate than what they can without the stability the second hand on the ball allows in the two handed delivery, thus increasing the percentage of higher rev rates. You are always going to have an EJ Tackett or Robert Smith, a Bob Vespi, but now, you have MORE of the high rev rates, because of the promotion of the two handed style.

You see, it has nothing to do with just "whining" about bowlers with a high rev rate, I am doing nothing more than looking at the facts, and forming a LOGICAL conclusion on the said facts that rev rate has more to do with problems of pattern integrity, and the ability to create a stable environment for EVERYONE to be able to showcase their accuracy and repeat-ability. The only way to fix that, is to teach the game from a more traditional style, a style that has longevity and echoes the core foundation of a "lifelong participation" sport; a sport that is the number one participation sport in America. A game that does NOT have corporate America behind it, so you need to be able to make money from it over a longer period of time, because the quick cash grab simply isn't there.





Nearly the entire men’s tour has a higher rev rate than anyone on the female tour. That includes the one handers, which is still the vast majority of bowlers.

How do you propose we stop one handers from having high rev rates? How do you suggest we teach kids to bowl with low rev rates if they have more fun producing higher rev rates?

I agree that rev rates are destroying the patterns more than anything. But I don’t think you’re coming to a logical solution based off of that. When golfers were driving the ball too far, they reined in the driver heads, because telling golfers to hit it weaker is a ridiculous suggestion. You’re suggesting we minimize our own athletic abilities, which is just crazy for what is supposed to be an athletic competition.

The options are to reduce the effect that the rev rates have on the lane, or set an environment that takes away the advantage of using a high rev rate style. They’re starting with option 1.

avabob

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #144 on: April 26, 2018, 10:39:08 AM »
As an aging senior I have seen what tomygyn is talking about for over 15 years.  Same pattern, and I would always score higher and see a more controlled transition of the pattern against other seniors than against the kids.  It is really a combination of the shells and the rev rates.  With the introduction of the resin balls, high rev players were able to over power patterns rather than play the pattern the way us lower rev guys did.  As early ad 1995 I saw young power players go right to 20 board on fresh patterns.  Long formats became a thing of the past because patterns wouldn't hold up. 

I dont have an answer either.  I think you would have to go back to polyester balls to restore a balance where finesse was as important as rev rate, and you couldn't simply over power the pattern. 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 10:43:09 AM by avabob »

ignitebowling

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #145 on: April 26, 2018, 10:48:15 AM »
So many of the "sport patterns" force bowlers inside.  If 10 to the gutter is out of bounds and the friction is in the middle of the lane in the last few feet of the pattern it only makes sense to get further left and play across the middle to keep the ball inside of 10. The further right you get the more over under you have.  Lots of different "named patterns" all play the same in this sense.
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Luke Rosdahl

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #146 on: April 26, 2018, 10:48:26 AM »
Best post ever.  Strong equipment was for lower powered bowlers and ever since they started adding more oil, the higher powered bowlers have started using big hook and lots of surface.  In combination with big rev rates and crazy flare, patterns are getting destroyed. 

It's like taking a par 3 and making it 300 yards so everybody can use their drivers.  It's not the equipment, it's not the bowler, it's the patterns.  Pros use and win with urethane on drier patterns.  Lower volume patterns will degrade slower because bowlers won't use equipment that beats them up so fast.  Control the patterns, control the problem.  Pros might even start using plastic again if the volumes get reduced, but people want to see new reactive equipment on the tv shows, so volumes on the PBA at least I think have evolved to accommodate that.  No reason for companies to have pro staffs if all the pros use are plastic and urethane. 

DP3,

The ladies tour uses the same amount or less oil on the lanes as the men's tour, yet their patterns hold up.


The ladies use as strong of layouts, if not stronger than the men do, yet their patterns hold up.


The ladies tour uses as much or often times more surface on their balls then the men do, yet their patterns hold up.


The ladies tour throws high end equipment on their tour at a higher rate than the men do, yet their patterns hold up.


There are very few if any ladies that throw urethane on any regular basis, if ever.


The ladies tour has a lower AVERAGE rev rate than the men's tour.


Kegel has data PROVING that the ladies patterns hold up better than the men's patterns.

Pro Shops sell more high end equipment to league bowlers with lower rev rates, than with a high rev rate, to the fact that design intent of high end product is designed for rev challenged bowlers. Higher rev rate league bowlers gravitate to lower hook potential balls.

All of this will lead a person with common sense to see that the issue of pattern integrity has more to do with rev rate, than it does with the balls "porosity" or "layout", but USBC is attacking the balls. Scratch the knee while it is the elbow that itches. They created this situation by promoting two handed bowling, and offering an avenue to allow bowlers to create more rev rate than what they can without the stability the second hand on the ball allows in the two handed delivery, thus increasing the percentage of higher rev rates. You are always going to have an EJ Tackett or Robert Smith, a Bob Vespi, but now, you have MORE of the high rev rates, because of the promotion of the two handed style.

You see, it has nothing to do with just "whining" about bowlers with a high rev rate, I am doing nothing more than looking at the facts, and forming a LOGICAL conclusion on the said facts that rev rate has more to do with problems of pattern integrity, and the ability to create a stable environment for EVERYONE to be able to showcase their accuracy and repeat-ability. The only way to fix that, is to teach the game from a more traditional style, a style that has longevity and echoes the core foundation of a "lifelong participation" sport; a sport that is the number one participation sport in America. A game that does NOT have corporate America behind it, so you need to be able to make money from it over a longer period of time, because the quick cash grab simply isn't there.
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Luke Rosdahl

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #147 on: April 26, 2018, 10:49:31 AM »
And if you're on a 30ml pattern, that makes moving left a nightmare unless you use big hook with strong surface to control the midlane to increase consistency.  Oil patterns man, lol . .

So many of the "sport patterns" force bowlers inside.  If 10 to the gutter is out of bounds and the friction is in the middle of the lane in the last few feet of the pattern it only makes sense to get further left and play across the middle to keep the ball inside of 10. The further right you get the more over under you have.  Lots of different "named patterns" all play the same in this sense.
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tommygn

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #148 on: April 26, 2018, 10:51:16 AM »


Nearly the entire men’s tour has a higher rev rate than anyone on the female tour. That includes the one handers, which is still the vast majority of bowlers.

How do you propose we stop one handers from having high rev rates? How do you suggest we teach kids to bowl with low rev rates if they have more fun producing higher rev rates?

I agree that rev rates are destroying the patterns more than anything. But I don’t think you’re coming to a logical solution based off of that. When golfers were driving the ball too far, they reined in the driver heads, because telling golfers to hit it weaker is a ridiculous suggestion. You’re suggesting we minimize our own athletic abilities, which is just crazy for what is supposed to be an athletic competition.

The options are to reduce the effect that the rev rates have on the lane, or set an environment that takes away the advantage of using a high rev rate style. They’re starting with option 1.

I'm not suggesting that you stop a traditionalist from having a higher rev rate, as I said earlier, there will always be the outliers. The difference is because of the number of higher rev rate competitors, the average rev rate has gone through the roof, compared to even 10 years ago. They are putting more oil downlane to placate to the high rev rate ,unlike 10 years ago, when the tour made guys learn to  back off of the ball some. Youtube Chris Barnes first show, Mike Fagan, Tommy Jones just to name a few, there are a lot more, that had to learn how to roll it, not just grip and rip the ball, and had to learn to back off the ball at the bottom of the swing. Then look later, they ALL had cleaned up their game to be a more smoothed out version of what they started as.

This idea of not making a young bowler learn to throw it straight is getting ridiculous. Every top pro used to have to learn to throw it differently, or wait until it was there week, or not make it at all, if they didn't conform.

Today, all they do is throw the same release, but use urethane. There's no learning curve, and what it does to the lanes is 10x worse than it was even 10 years ago.

There was a time when hook guys used shiny, tweeners threw matte, and straighties threw dull, to get the best reaction. Patterns held up longer.  EVERYONE uses surface today, and it has become a dog chasing it's tail, and will continue, until you at some point say enough is enough.
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S-70BreakPearl

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #149 on: April 26, 2018, 10:53:24 AM »
OMG really?  you can still drill the P3 or P4 weight hole  to raise the diff on the balls then plug the hole back up      ball will still be legal and you'll get the ball reaction your still looking for  its not that big of an issue    been doing this since they changed the rules a while back  and everybody still gets the same reaction on there equipment :)   its the covers that will be the bigger issue to ajust to    really looking forward to the new change :)   
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Luke Rosdahl

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Re: USBC has done it. No weight holes 8/1/2020
« Reply #150 on: April 26, 2018, 10:54:45 AM »
Lol no new covers.  No ball in current production fails the absorption test.  Worst one is 2:38 and the limit is 2:15 lol. 

OMG really?  you can still drill the P3 or P4 weight hole  to raise the diff on the balls then plug the hole back up      ball will still be legal and you'll get the ball reaction your still looking for  its not that big of an issue    been doing this since they changed the rules a while back  and everybody still gets the same reaction on there equipment :)   its the covers that will be the bigger issue to ajust to    really looking forward to the new change :)
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