Rico....you have much more insight into the bowling industry as me and probably have forgotten more about bowling than I will ever know, but...as a Risk Manager at a bank, I know that you have to have limits and cutoffs and you have to stick to those numbers. If the USBC allows someone to exceed the diff, than how about the pro that goes over the foul line by 1/32 of an inch? Whether its 1/32 of an inch or 10 feet, the bowler is still over the foul line and trips the buzzer, causing a 0 for that shot.  If we would allow a bowler to go past the foul line by 1/32 of an inch, then the next bowler would want it to be ok to go over by 1/16 of an inch, and so on. Once you allow a rule to be circumvented, you allow any rule open for discussion to circumvention and your rules, laws, and regulations lose credibility and are impossible to enforce.

I drilled for years, was on Track staff, Hammer staff, and MoRich staff, and from my time with Mo and Del I know and understand how little .01 diff is, especially with mass bias balls and the super advanced covers we have today, but there has to be a cutoff somewhere, arbitrary or not.

+1 rules n rules why other companies gotta play under the limit while USBC allows one company to exceed the limit. Why even have a limit let's just let everyone pass it.

If I was to offer a solution I would ban the balls from production and actually charge a decent fine not 16000 which is little IMO. But allow USBC member's who already own the ball to continue in leagues only. Basically im trying to say punish motiv hard enough to  deter other companies from trying to break rules. Although I don't see anything wrong with what USBC did because naturally in society if something is illegal naturally you should ban it or enforce the rules.

Ken

I agree. I think there was a better way to handle the announcement and the subsequent  banning of the Jackals...but regardless, the ball is past the allowed limit that all other companies (supposedly) play by. Witch hunt or not (sounds like it was), a rule is a rule regardless of how little or how much the rule is broken by.

If you go 36 in a 35 MPH zone, you can get a speeding ticket, so can the person going 45 in the same 35 zone.

If I had ball at Nationals that weighed out at 16 pounds and 1 ounce, is it overweight and illegal? YES. Does it matter? Nope, the ball either needs weight taken out or I cannot use it.

If a ball has 3.1 ounces of side weight, is it illegal? YEP. I need to remove weight.

Does anyone really think a ball that is an ounce past 16# or an ounce past 3 ounces of side weight makes any difference in ball reaction? Not for me. But yet, they are rules and I need to meet those rules.

Yessir glad to see reasonable people. on bowling ball exchange forum they got some MOTIV backers who claim their not bias but come on now how can any solution not punishing MOTIV be a solution

Jammin...the weight might be able to be removed, but the end result is the same, is it not? All are rules by the USBC for bowling. The ball is illegal.

I never said I agreed with the way the USBC handled the banning...but in the end, an ounce overweight, an extra ounce of side weight, how about a ball with a low RG lower than the allowable limit (why the V2 cannot be produced anymore), a pin that is too light, you went 1/32 of an inch over the foul line...whatever it is, there is a rule in the rule book that states what you can and cannot do, regardless of whether the ball, pin, or whatever it is can be altered or not. It is very clear...an undrilled ball cannot have a diff greater than .060. The Jackal exceeded it, the ball does not meet USBC specs.

I still do not understand why so many people, regardless of how archaic or stupid the rule in reality really is, think it is ok to circumvent the rule.

If Rico ran for USBC president and had the rule removed, I would vote for him. I agree the extra diff is so small someone like me will never see the difference, but it is still a rule.

I would love to know how the Jackal core has been used in 5 balls spanning roughly 4 years and it's never been out of compliance before. Would also like to know how their field testing never caught it and how many have been field tested with this core as part of their certification process over the last 4 years. And finally, how many other manufacture's balls have been field tested and if any were found out of compliance. If it turns out some balls were anonymously sent as many have said, does field testing even occur regularly? All I ever hear from USBC leadership is how transparent they are, well something about this seems a bit off and there's no explanation coming from them that would prove all manufacturers are being monitored for compliance on a regular basis through field testing.

Kid...I do agree. I have an AMB Centaur...the diff is greater than .060, but was produced prior to the USBC diff adjustment. I also have an Immortal, with almost a .080 diff. I am sure there are more out there than just me using these balls and others right now when a new ball cannot have that much undrilled diff.

But....the manufacturers know the rules about what the new balls can and cannot have/do. Just like how gasoline used to have lead in it...but now it doesn't. Can a car made back in the days that used lead gas still be on the road? Yes. But that does not mean it is ok for a gasoline company to start making gas with lead in it again. The rules changed and the company must meet the rules set for today, not what it was before.

I think there should be field testing of every ball from every company. Just because company X sent you a few balls that had an diff of XYZ does not mean that is what the ball will have in production. What if the company on purpose sent test balls that would pass but the subsequent balls released for consumers did not? Any company could do this knowing the USBC would not field test. Only way to stop this is random inspections/field tests of every ball from every company.

If the other ball companies have complied with the new production rules, the USBC cannot let a ball from a company to stay in production, regardless of how long it has been out. What does that tell the other manufacturers? If you produce a ball that we do not find out for a year after it has been in production is actually illegal, we will allow you to keep it in play? You can't do that.

I am not a cheap crybaby. But when I have to pay a fee, a fine, or whatever because I did something wrong, I pay it. I did nothing wrong in this situation. My pro shop did nothing wrong in this situation, so why should I or the pro shop pay to help someone else fix their mistake? Do you start a GoFundMe to help pay a speeding ticket because you feel you shouldn't have to pay it? Nope, I pay it because I screwed up. Motiv screwed up because either they had no idea the balls rolling off the line exceeded .060 diff when undrilled or they knowingly were producing balls that exceeded USBC regs. I just don't understand how Motiv could not know.

Wowsers we are the guys that receive a speeding ticket or w.e infraction we pay it or do w.e necessary to follow rules, while others if they receive a speeding ticket or infraction, well you know fill in the blanks haha

WOW, really assume much. You don't know what we all do. Just because we don't agree this makes it OK to assume that is the actions we would take..

Jammin...not changing my reasoning, just giving example after example of scenarios that are similar or the same.

Actually, in the world of Risk Management, it is that cut and dry. My bank has to meet rules and regs established by the OCC and other Government bodies. If the products and divisions I am responsible for do not meet a single one of those rules and regs, regardless of how big or small the infraction is, my bank is fined, and I am placed on probation.

There is a law that states when a bank runs an advertisement, if we use a billboard to publicize the advertisement, when the advertisement ends, we have 10 days to remove the advertisement from the billboard. We had one in one of our markets get removed on day 11, and would you believe that we were caught. Someone from another bank was watching to ensure we removed our billboards. We know who it was last year that did this, because in the same market, the bank was fined a few months before us for the same reason. Word leaked and was confirmed by the regulators that they did not catch it, XYZ bank did and reported us.

We were fined over $50,000. Because a billboard advertisement was up ONE day too long.

Rules are rules and have to be met, cut and dry, no exceeding the rule in any way. If we breach a control, it is a HUGE deal. Try telling any government regulator otherwise. They will be back with your fine if you try to breach the rules, and you will pay with your job if the breach occurred on your watch and breaches occur too often.

Motiv breached the diff rule. Cut and dry.

As for variances in manufacturing, yes it does happen. Either have a rigid QC in place or lower the expected diff to .058 or whatever to allow for some variance. Don't push yourself against the max. Only Motiv has to blame for that, they should know that there was no room for variance. That is why I still cannot believe they didn't have a rigid QC in place for the balls with diff that pushed the max. Boggles my mind.

This is not Risk management, this is manufacturing it still comes down to people doing their job. You can have all the QC in the world and if this persons is mad or doesn't want to work today ect it can all go down hill quickly. I think Motiv understands its important, I think its more of maybe too much trust of their persons doing the job and doing it right,

THIS IS RISK MANAGEMENT. There is a USBC rule that says you cannot exceed .060 in diff. If a company decides to make a ball with .060 diff, you need a control in place to ensure the risk is properly mitigated.

Risk: Exceeding established USBC rules for undrilled diff in a bowling ball. If exceeded, ball will be deemed illegal

Control: QC test X number of balls per run, per weight, to ensure the diff in the tested balls is either equal to .060 diff or is less than .060 diff

If the Control is breached, you have not mitigated the Risk.



We have people in the bank pressing buttons all day long to make transfers and every other type of transaction you can imagine. We have to place out faith in the worker that they do the right thing, just as any other firm does. That is why we have a Risk Management department to ensure compliance with rules and regs. That is why Motiv should have a Risk Management team in place to know the Rules and the risks involved if the rules are not followed. That team would be responsible for establishing controls and subsequent independent testing to ensure the control is working and the risk is mitigated, whether it is in manufacturing, banking, or whatever industry we are talking about.