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Author Topic: Who agrees/disagrees  (Read 3019 times)

2EZ

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Who agrees/disagrees
« on: December 08, 2004, 05:29:25 AM »
I’ve read that the strongest positioning of the pin and the CG, for the earliest roll, is to place the pin between the center of the grip and the PAP, 3 3/8" from the PAP, with the CG on the PAP.
Any thoughts?

 

2EZ

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2004, 01:43:13 PM »
Thanks for the reply
From what I've read, the balance hole will go on the PAP - right through the CG.  I am thinking of trying this layout for the Mrs. to handle heavier oil patterns/carrydown.

2EZ

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2004, 01:44:41 PM »
PS
Also figuring to go with a low top weight ball, to minimize the size of the balance hole needed.
Any other thoughts/comments are welcome

TheBowlingKid25

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2004, 01:48:37 PM »
Yea, your right. Pin and CG on PAP will promote a very early roll along w/ that pin placement. I've heard pin in palm is the strongest you can lay out a ball though? As long as you dont track high, a pin in palm drilling would probably be very strong and early rolling.
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StormStriker

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2004, 02:08:25 PM »
quote:
Yea, your right. Pin and CG on PAP will promote a very early roll along w/ that pin placement. I've heard pin in palm is the strongest you can lay out a ball though? As long as you dont track high, a pin in palm drilling would probably be very strong and early rolling.
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My XXX factor is drilled pin in palm and as soon as it comes off long oil it grabs and moves like a mofo.
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Leftyhi-trak

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2004, 03:02:07 PM »
EZ,

This would also be called a 0 degree drill. Actually you maintain more axis rotation on a 0 degree than a 25 degree from what i have read (Denny Torgeson). I have used a 4" X 0" and it rolled early and is a great drill for wet/dry conditions. For  oil conditions make sure you match up the surface to the shot or this drill will burn a lot of energy. I personally like this drill in lightbulb or symetrical cores. I have tried some reactive solids and pearls. I love this pattern on like pattern E or short tournament patterns where the twig plays. Like someone said you need a ball with under 3 oz top weight and balls in the 1.5-2 oz range kept the hole size down to a small crater. Good luck and hope this helped.

Kid,

Pin in palm would be putting you in a low flare area depending on your PAP. It might promote more length and less energy bleed but lots of ifs dependant upon operator and condition.

JohnP

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2004, 05:09:10 PM »
2EZ -- First, to do what you've stated, you would have to get a ball with a pin out distance of exactly 3 3/8".  Placing the pin on the midline will put the track bowtie roughly halfway between the thumb hole and finger holes.  If you're using a ball that flares very much at all, the track will flare over the finger holes unless it's a very low track.  --  JohnP

2EZ

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2004, 06:28:46 AM »
John,
Thanks for the reply.  From what I've read, you're correct that I need a ball with the pin at 3 3/8 from cg.  The concern I had, and the reason I posted this for comments, is that placing the pin in the mid grin certainly takes it out of the "pin safe zone".  However, the author stated this will work as long as the person throwing the ball does not have a high track.  If you want to drill a ball for a high track player with cg on pap and pin 3 3/8 from pap, you need to draw a line from the ring finger to the pap and locate the pin on this line.  Because this is going to be an experiment on the Mrs. who doesn't have a high track, I've decided to try it on one of her balls she isn't currently happy with - an Ultimate Inferno.
After it's plugged and redrilled I'll let y'all know the results.
Thanks again to all and happy holidays.

JohnP

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2004, 10:36:49 AM »
quote:
If you want to drill a ball for a high track player with cg on pap and pin 3 3/8 from pap, you need to draw a line from the ring finger to the pap and locate the pin on this line.


2EZ -- This is correct, except instead of "locate the pin on this line", it should read "locate the pin on or above this line. -- JohnP

janderson

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2004, 11:09:41 AM »
Clarification: "strongest positioning of the pin and the CG, for the earliest roll"

What do you mean by "strongest", the most hook?  Are you looking for maximum hook or earliest roll or a combination of both?

Maximum early roll: For any given piece of equipment, promoting the earliest possible roll means using the lowest possible radius of gyration (RG) for that ball.  Placing the pin directly on your positive (or negative) axis point (PAP) is how you would do that.  The CG is then placed on a line between your PAP and your grip center.  You'll need a balance hole unless you have a long pin-out or your PAP is not far from your grip center (lot's of axis tilt). You can also sand the surface to promote an ealier hook.  

Maximum hook: For any given piece of eqiupment, promoting maximum hook means a 3 3/8 inch pin-to-PAP create maximum track flare ("flare").

Maximum hook and early roll: Well, you can't blend the two above answers, obviously your pin can't be in two places at the same time!  However, Leftyhi-trak gives some great advice.  Keep your pin in the 3.5 to 4 inch from PAP range and place your CG on your PAP or on the line drawn from your PAP to the pin.  You'll get maximum flare for maximum hook and your core is positioned to induce the earliest possible roll with the pin where it is.

For any of the above layouts, you'll need to beware the ball rolling out. IMO, they are all good layouts for certain conditions.  Like any other equipment, it must be matched to how you throw the ball and the conditions you're bowling.

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2EZ

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2004, 11:43:09 AM »
Here's where I'm going with this - guess I didn't explain it well enough:

"Clarification: "strongest positioning of the pin and the CG, for the earliest roll""
This is a direct quote - not exactly sure what the author meant.  What I get from it, and what I'm looking for, is the ball pick up the roll early with continuation on the back end.  Remember - this is set up for the Mrs.: slow/average speed (14.5 - 15 mph) with not a lot of hand on heavy oil/heavy oil with carry down.  

"What do you mean by "strongest", the most hook? Are you looking for maximum hook or earliest roll or a combination of both?"
See above

"Maximum early roll: For any given piece of equipment, promoting the earliest possible roll means using the lowest possible radius of gyration (RG) for that ball. Placing the pin directly on your positive (or negative) axis point (PAP) is how you would do that. The CG is then placed on a line between your PAP and your grip center. You'll need a balance hole unless you have a long pin-out or your PAP is not far from your grip center (lot's of axis tilt). You can also sand the surface to promote an ealier hook."
Don't want to the loose flair potential, which would be the result of putting the pin on PAP.  Pin at 3 3/8 from PAP is maximum flair potential, while cg on PAP is early roll.  I read this as the author simply stating this is the strongest possible drill.  I also mis-stated when I wrote the pin located in the midgrip - it is located on line between the grip center and the pin/cg, 3 3/8 from the pin/cg (assuming the ball has a 3 3/8 pin).  The size of the balance hole would be determined by the top weight.  If the ball has 0 top weight no balance hole would be needed.  This is where I was trying to get input, as I have zero experience with pins out of the "safe zone".  However, the author claimed it would work as long as the bowler does not track high (the Mrs. does not track high).  For a high-track player the pin must go up to the "pin safe" zone, but again at 3 3/8 from PAP.

"Maximum hook: For any given piece of eqiupment, promoting maximum hook means a 3 3/8 inch pin-to-PAP create maximum track flare ("flare")."
See above

"Maximum hook and early roll: Well, you can't blend the two above answers, obviously your pin can't be in two places at the same time! However, Leftyhi-trak gives some great advice. Keep your pin in the 3.5 to 4 inch from PAP range and place your CG on your PAP or on the line drawn from your PAP to the pin. You'll get maximum flare for maximum hook and your core is positioned to induce the earliest possible roll with the pin where it is."
This is kind of where I was going, but again with the pin in line with the grip center.

"For any of the above layouts, you'll need to beware the ball rolling out. IMO, they are all good layouts for certain conditions. Like any other equipment, it must be matched to how you throw the ball and the conditions you're bowling."
Because this is intended for heavy oil conditions, I do not expect the ball to roll out.  However, there is only one way to know.
Thanks again to all who took the time to reply.  Again, I'll post the results when they are available.


2EZ

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2004, 12:03:58 PM »
Nuts - sorry all.  I really need to proof read before I post replies.
I wrote "it is located on line between the grip center and the pin/cg, 3 3/8 from the pin/cg (assuming the ball has a 3 3/8 pin)."

This should have read the pin is located on line between the grip center and the PAP/cg (with cg on PAP), 3 3/8 from the PAP/cg location.  Again, obviously requiring a ball with the pin located 3 3/8 from the cg.

I apologise for any confusion.

Should look like this:

  X  X

   +  P  cg/pap

   y

X = finger holes
+ = mid grip line
P = pin
cg/pap = cg placed on pap
y = thumb hole




Ragnar

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2004, 12:10:14 PM »
2EZ, while not exactly the same layout as your discussing, I've had two balls similarly drilled: CG on PAP, 3 3/8" pin on line from fingers to PAP (note: not on line from grip center, but similar).  As Bob Hanson said of your layout, these were excellent for squaring up from outside with good back ends.  I've not had much luck with these balls if I tried to move in and throw away from the pocket, but for playing down the boards the layout I have is very good - I'd expect similar results from your layout.
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2EZ

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2004, 12:28:36 PM »
Thanks Ragnar - now I'm convinced to give it a try.  The Mrs. loves playing up the outside.  The problem sometimes is getting the ball to pocket on heavier patterns (she doesn't have a lot of hand, but manages to score without it - averaging between 200 and 205 the past couple of seasons).

Let ya know how it worked for her.

janderson

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Re: Who agrees/disagrees
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2004, 03:53:21 PM »
quote:

Should look like this:

  X  X

   +  P  cg/pap

   y

X = finger holes
+ = mid grip line
P = pin
cg/pap = cg placed on pap
y = thumb hole



Ah - well, yes this is essentially the same as the third layout I proposed or the 4x0 drill Leftyhi-trak was talking about.  Putting the pin online with the grip center usually means more thumb weight.  Finger weight/thumb weight have very little bearing on ball reaction these days, but even so, thumb weight simply helps the ball start up earlier than if you give it finger weight.  If the Mrs has a high track, this may pose problems with the ball flaring over her middle finger hole, especially with the pin at 3 3/8.

As for swinging this from the inside, no, you're not going to have much success with that.  But then, on heavy oil, there usually isn't an option for a deep swing.  I agree with whoever said this type of equipment is good on PBA pattern A... I can attest to that.

2EZ - no offense intended.  Hope I've helped even a little bit.
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