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Author Topic: Why are older urethane balls better?  (Read 21269 times)

jensm

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Why are older urethane balls better?
« on: September 27, 2013, 12:40:26 AM »
Since the shorter oil patterns (33-36 ft) were introduced in international championships, there seems to have been a rising demand among bowlers on the best national teams for urethane balls manufactured in the late 1980s and early 1990s. One of these bowlers told me that this is due to modern urethane balls being 'tamer' than older ones. Why is that? Lower RG? Better COR? Or what?
Regards,

jensm

 

avabob

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2013, 11:02:53 AM »
I am sure the urethane formulas have changed somewhat.  However the oils and surfaces have changed dramatically too.  Haven't seen these international guys bowl, but anyone throwing a ball at 180 grit is either getting major rollout or is way up over 20 mph on a short pattern.  Maybe these short patterns are very high volume, and the guys are using the really dull stuff to blow a hole in the pattern without looping the ball too much.

I use urethane quite a bit myself, but I keep it buffed to 2000 or higher.  Key to urethane of any era is that it burns off too much energy turning a wide corner.  I use urethane to play more direct to the pocket than I can with resin.   
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 11:09:32 AM by avabob »

LuckyLefty

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2013, 12:09:40 AM »
I don't know a lot about these balls as I bowled in the Rubber, Plastic and now Reactive and Particle days, missing the Urethane era,  and I think many of them are very weak on today's oils.

However of the new ones the Hammer Blue Remake seems to be right for todays oils seeming to have a small touch of resin in the formulation, based on its increased ability to hook over balls like the Natural and the Grenade.  All based just on watching these balls, on the lanes and on video.

Hammer in it's description seems to hint at the same and the Pure Hammer from several years ago seemed to have a very similar idea.

Regards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

Greazygeo

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2013, 01:08:02 AM »
The old Hammers started turning as soon as they hit the lane. I got rid of all of mine in the mid 1990's when I accepted the fact that I couldn't hit the head pin with them. They hooked so early and so much that they hit really soft due to the expended energy. I have a hard time believing they would work on the standard house shot today. I know I couldn't throw one because I need my ball to skid.
I use the old Hammers on THS all the time.  I can rarely use reactive stuff, way too violent reactions.  Actually just picked up a couple Purple Hammers this week.  Can't wait to throw them.  My Burgundy is usually too strong so it's been the Red Hammer most.  Both of those hit great. 

I also have a Rotogrip Grenade, and the new Blue remake.  The Blue I've not had alot of use, it really creates alot of carry down, the others don't.  The Grenade is a pretty nice ball, it flares alot.  But it doesnt hit quite as hard as the Hammers. 
2014-15 avg 193  Current arsenal....Faball Red and Brunswick Blue Ringer Solid / Maxim spare ball.

Greazygeo

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2013, 01:20:54 AM »

I use urethane quite a bit myself, but I keep it buffed to 2000 or higher.  Key to urethane of any era is that it burns off too much energy turning a wide corner.  I use urethane to play more direct to the pocket than I can with resin.   
My Burgundy is 4000 polished, Red is a bit more dull, Blue remake is 2000, not sure on the Grenade it might be 1000 or 1500. 

I get mine into a roll as soon as possible with an up the back release.  They hit best for me that way. 
2014-15 avg 193  Current arsenal....Faball Red and Brunswick Blue Ringer Solid / Maxim spare ball.

jensm

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2013, 08:37:42 AM »
So, to summarize differences between modern and older urethane balls:

- Most modern urethane balls are manufactured with less or none of the materials that went into the urethane balls of the 1980s and early 1990s.

- Many older urethane balls have lower differential RG values than is common in most modern urethane balls.

- Older urethane balls are used mainly by bowlers who can play more of a direct hand-behind-the-ball line. Modern urethane balls are made to feel comfortable for bowlers who use more axis rotation.

- The lane oils and lane surfaces of today also have something to do with how modern urethane balls are made.


Regards,

jensm

Greazygeo

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2013, 10:19:45 AM »


- Older urethane balls are used mainly by bowlers who can play more of a direct hand-behind-the-ball line. Modern urethane balls are made to feel comfortable for bowlers who use more axis rotation.

I still have to use an up the back with the modern urethane stuff I have.  Coming around it they hit like a pillow.  Could just be me. 
2014-15 avg 193  Current arsenal....Faball Red and Brunswick Blue Ringer Solid / Maxim spare ball.

Doug Sterner

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2013, 11:49:27 AM »
I have been a huge proponent of the older urethanes for quite some time. Why are they better? They are not necessarily better for EVERYONE but they do the same for a gicen class of bowler that the resin era did for a different class.

What reactive resin allowed was for the straighter players to  increase their entry angle so as to be able to increase their strike window to where the power players were.

The opposite is true for the use of urethanes in todays game. The power players are using urethanes to help control the wet/dry walled up lane conditions we see in leagues today. They also allow the power player to take advantage of the "track area" where the ham and eggers make their 200+ averages while stile gaining a margin of error they don't have with any of the newer resin balls.

Now, why are the older urethane balls better? Simple.....the cores and covers are not nearly as strong as today. The old Hammer core or the Turbo core are not weak but they are symmetrical, they lack flip blocks or multi-densities to help them flare and hook more. Many of the older urethane balls have the same hook potential as the current polyester balls. Control, predictaility and face it, they hit!....the cornerstones of the entire Faball line back in the late 80's....

Why do tournament bowlers like them? The same reason....control, predictability and carry....no fillers in the old balls make them transfer energy much more efficiently than some of the newer stuff. Newer higher flaring cores are heavier and require filler to get the ball to make weight. Filler is lower density and does not transfer energy as well. The older balls with the less complicated cores require little to no filler. Add these facts together and you get better carry from the older urethanes.

higher flaring cores burn energy faster and the filler does not transfer energy as efficiently so therefore you get less energy at the pins.

Again, advantage old school.....
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY

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Fighting to uphold the Constitution of the U.S.

kidlost2000

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2013, 03:27:51 PM »
Very few of todays urethane bowling balls have low rg or high diffs. There cores are on par with many of those from the 80s and early 90s. Cover and surface is the biggest difference.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

jensm

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2013, 02:25:57 AM »
So does the absence of light-weight filler material in older urethane balls make the Coefficient of Restitution (energy transfer) values in these balls fall outside the USBC ball approval requirements (minimum 0.739 and maximum 0.750)?

Thanks all you guys for sharing your knowledge and opinions!

 
Regards,

jensm

kidlost2000

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2013, 02:44:01 AM »
Is there a reason it would? What were the min and max at the time of release during that era?
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

jensm

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2013, 05:16:02 AM »
I don't know what the ball appoval requirements were in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Perhaps there was no Coefficient of Restitution rules back then. Have the economics of present-day-ball-manufacturing (light-weight fillers) resulted in less effective urethane balls than back in the day?

Regards,

jensm

kidlost2000

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2013, 07:07:53 AM »
Two different results occur from differences in COR. Higher COR means more pin velocity and more ball deflection. Lower COR means less pin velocity, but less ball deflection. Which one would you like.

With high revs and high balls speed effects of COR are going to be non-existant.

With a ball like the Sumo you have a very large light bulb core, followed by filler then coverstock. A lot like most of todays urethane bowling balls. Simple cores, with the biggest difference being box finish. The Sumo shows to be a box finish of 320 grit, the original Blue Hammer was 800 grit. The new Blue Hammer was 4000 sanded.

If as stated the guy had the ball sanded at 180 then any of these other balls would likely be identical on the lanes.  Even many reactive balls at the surface will hook stop quickly.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

jensm

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2013, 08:14:21 AM »
The match between Barnes and Cho Yeung Sun is about 1h18min into this video:

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/38008115

I don't know for sure that the grit on the Korean's urethane ball was 180. Could have been 360, I guess.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 08:19:09 AM by jensm »
Regards,

jensm

bradl

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2013, 01:02:27 PM »
Likely because there has been so little urethane available that many bought up or found what they wanted at bowling alley racks, pawn shops, garage sales, ect.

As far as cores, like mentioned most were pancake at first before going to light bulb shaped cores ect. The JPF Axe and Brunswick Phantoms had the most advanced of cores for that time.

The original blue hammer core

http://www.bowlingballvault.com/companies/12-hammer/1052-blue-hammer

http://www.bowlingballvault.com/companies/12-hammer/1054-burgandy-hammer

the new release blue hammer

http://www.bowlingballvault.com/companies/12-hammer/1529-blue-hammer-remake

Similar cores specs, one is 800 grit one is 4000 grit. Big difference on the lanes.

The more advanced urethane cores, the Phantom

http://www.bowlingballvault.com/companies/3-brunswick/580-phantom

But, you don't see many people using them. You want early, any of todays bowling balls at 800 grit will give you early. Many on most conditions will give you hook stop reaction urethane like from years ago.

Wow.. you really have me thinking about this here.

I was going to post about comparing a Fab Blue Hammer to a Fab Burgundy Hammer, in seeing which would be better (I know that's relative). I have a Blue and Blue Pearl I keep in my bag to this day because of how they just last. I punched up a new Blue Hammer, but as you mentioned, there's a big difference in how the cover was laid out and the core.

I was thinking about trying to find another Fab Blue so I can retire my original one (it's a 300 ball, and I've had the worst luck with serious ball damage to my 300 balls), but now you have me wondering if it would be better to add some serious surface to the New Blue.

Reason for this being that the alley I'm at has been putting down some really short patterns lately, to where anything new in my bag (new, meaning newer than 2000) has me swinging to 20 at the arrows out. While I can do that, that leaves me with not much room left to move, and balling down has me rolling out at the pins. So I'm thinking of urethane here.

This gives me a LOT to think about. Thanks for posting this.

BL.

avabob

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Re: Why are older urethane balls better?
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2013, 01:16:28 PM »
Doug explained it very accurately.  There is not even that much difference between the shells of todays urethanes and those from the 80's.  People forget that even us straighter guys could score big time with those urethane balls on short patterns when you could play way out.  Power players got the advantage in longer formats as the shot moved in, and they were able to create stronger recovery from inside with high rev rates.   As a low rev guy I can play straighter than a lot of the young guys can with urethane, giving me more places to use it.