Author Topic: Would you buy a ball from an average bowler? (Read 1012 times)

CountryClubBowler · « **on:** January 16, 2004, 03:23:01 AM »

I was at a tourney last weekend and I saw this guy on the lanes next to me wearing a shirt that had the logo of a semi-local proshop. I'm fairly certain he was the owner of the shop, but can't be absolutely sure because I haven't been there yet. He was really not a very good bowler when it was all said and done. He had a really ugly and inconsistent pushaway and kind of spun the ball in place with almost no hook and very few revs. I've seen good bowlers and I know what a well thrown ball looks like. This was a guy who did not throw weight very well. So that got me thinking...would I buy a ball from a pro-shop operator who was not a very good bowler? My answer was...No. I wouldn't want someone who didn't bowl very well to be recommending or drilling equipment for me because I want someone who can use a ball correctly with a good amount of revs and a consistent swing behind the drill...

But I also thought, someone doesn't have to really know how to bowl GREAT to drill a great ball. They can know what weight holes, pin positions, cg positions, pitches etc will do to a bowler even if they can't do it themselves. So it is kind of irrational for me to not want to buy a ball just because the guy drilling it isn't an awesome bowler.

Thoughts? I still think I wouldn't want to go to a guy who couldn't bowl too well, but my opinion is as usual subject to change.

Thanks.
CCB

no1bucsfan · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2004, 09:36:06 PM »

I don't see what his bowling has to do with his bowling ball and drilling knowledge.

Would you by a steak from a supermarket if it was vegetarian that worked behind the counter? As long as they knew how to cut it, I would.

Would you by seafood from a fish market, if the guy that ran it didn't catch the fish himself? If not, you wouldn't eat much fish.

The guy at home depot might not have ever built a house in his life, but that doesn't mean he can't tell you the proper wood you would need to build one yourself.

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You can always hit em hard when you've got the balls

Lefties are the only people in their right minds.

no1bucsfan

charlest · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2004, 11:25:41 PM »

CountryClubBowler,

You are laboring under a major misapprehension. There is virtually no relationship between being able to bowl or, better yet, score well and the knowledge and skill needed to run a good pro shop, recommend the right balls and drillings and drill a ball properly.

As an outside example in baseball:
2 of the greatest players in baseball history, Frank Robinson and Ted Williams were major failures in managing baseball teams and players because they could not understand how each player did not have the skill that they did. (They could coach hitting, but they couldn't manage.)

3 of the greatest managers in baseball history, Casey Stengel, Walter Alston and Sparky Anderson were 3 of the worst players who ever played the game.

Hand-eye coordination is one of the biggest skills required in bowling execution. Just because someone was not born with those physical skills has no bearing on their ability to learn the knowledge needed to run a good Pro Shop. And to have the skill and craft (and a lot of art) to do what is needed.

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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."

CountryClubBowler · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2004, 04:10:05 AM »

It seems that the responses seem to be pretty one sided. Analogous cases are not exactly what I am looking for in this instance because like all other cases, analogies don't prove anything, they seek to explain. Golf is a great way to make explanations of bowling, but they don't PROVE anything. Analogies are by definition arguing outside of what is present. Bowling and golf are not the same. They never will be. And managing isn't the same as coaching which isn't the same as drilling a bowling ball which obviously isn't the same as throwing a bowling ball.

My original question/quandry had to do with the relationship between drilling and throwing a bowling ball, not between coaching and drilling, nor between coaching and playing. Those are separate topics tangentially related by the sport/activity in question.

What is at the heart of what I am asking or contemplating is whether or not someone who is drilling my ball should have the ability to do what I seek to do. And what I come to after sifting through the analogies is that knowledge is different than execution. And I knew that. But that does not take away the sour taste of knowing that the one seeking to do something for you would not be able to do what they say YOU should be able to do. What it comes down to is a strict reliance on the pro shop operators knowledge based on observation but not personally. I would like to see the guy I'm getting a ball drilled from be able throw the ball over a bunch of arrows. If I'm buying a ball that I want to swing 40 out to 1 I want him to at least be able to swing it 25 out to 5. Otherwise we would have to rely entirely on the numbers that companies give. And I find more and more as I read on this board that bowling balls are subjective in terms of personal experience. Bowling balls are not objective numbered rocks that go X boards on X pattern. It just doesn't work that way, which is why reasonable minds differ when it comes to expensive equipment. Some people like the Fear Factor, some people hate it. Why? Because of the subjective evaluation. And if a pro-shop operator were not able to give me a reasonable subjective evaluation of a product due to an inability to use the equipment properly, then perhaps I would not want to buy it from him.

So to answer some good posts, I don't think there is a complete break between knowledge and execution WHEN IT COMES TO BOWLING BALLS. Now that still leaves room for buying from people who don't throw it very well if I were to abandon the criteria I hold that the person be able to offer me a reasonable subjective evaluation. I can get the objective stuff by reading about RGs and Diffs, but when I pay the extra to go to a proshop operator I want their opinion of how the stuff works.

I think the analogies are getting a bit ridiculous. They aren't even very similar. Maybe I'm just being anal, but a basic argumentative or persuasive point is not to compare it to something vaguely similar and then argue from that perspective. Thanks for the responses.

CCB

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I bowl at country club bowl...not a very inventive name now is it.

Edited on 1/17/2004 5:07 AM

Pinbuster · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2004, 08:59:29 AM »

The most important attribute of a ball is how it fitâ€™s the bowlers hand. I would rather bowl with a ball from K-mart that fits than any new high performance ball that fits badly.

A ball driller does not have to know how to score well in bowling to make balls fit. In fact my experience has been most of the good bowlers who take up drilling fail because they think the way their ball fits is the only way. They use the same pitch in the thumb for every ball they drill.

Most ball reaction changes are simple to figure. For two piece balls certain rules hold true. The higher the pin above the mid line the more length you gain, the lower pin the earlier the ball will hook. The further from the track the pin is up to 3 3/8â€ the more flare potential the ball will generate and more overall hook. As you move the CG from the middle of the grip towards the PAP the ball will roll earlier. Finger weight adds length, thumb subtracts it, positive side increase hook and sharpness. Etc, etc, etc.

Say the ball driller was an accomplished bowler but threw a low spinner and you are a high Â¾ roller. Do you dismiss him because his ball roll is different and he doesnâ€™t have the same problems as you?

A good ball fitter with years of experience should be able to make good judgments on layout for any type of bowler and shouldnâ€™t have to be an accomplished bowler themselves. They only need to be a driller who pays attention to details and cares about what they are doing for all their customers.

The pro in proshop should be for professioinal ball drilling not bowling.

tenpinspro · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2004, 09:00:49 AM »

CCB,

Assuming the driller isn't handicapped or has one foot in the grave, I tend to agree with you to a certain degree. Even if the shop guys game is ugly and he hops at the line and spins like a top, the key for me is...can he score? If he can score or has found ways of drilling his own equipnment to work for that game, then he's figured out what he has to do to a bowling ball to make it work. If a person can do that, he's showing me he's analytical and has a good understanding of what it takes to make something work regardless of form or style. He's proven to me that he has good problem solving skills and assuming...and I'm assuming that he's done this by knowledge and not by luck, he can then possibly figure out what it is you need to score. If a shop owner cannot score and he has access to all these things that help people score nowadays, then to me he doesn't have the ability to solve his own problems, so how can he solve yours?? As I just posted in another question about "ball company trends", you should test your ball driller on some questions and see how much knowledge he does have. I talk about drillers having one dimensional games which tend to lead to one dimensional ideas on how to do things. As always, get a second opinion. Until someone starts averaging 300, everybody's got something to learn.
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Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff

nd300 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 17, 2004, 09:34:13 AM »

Unfortunately,a very good pro shop owner that I had come to trust passed on a few years ago. He listened to what you wanted in a ball, gave suggestions in what ball to get and offered advice in drilling layouts and also tips to help you improve. I never came away un satisfied.
The young man who now drills my equipment is almost a duplicate of the other gentleman. Sort of passing the torch as it were. I've never heard one bad thing about his drilling from anyone. It will be a sad day when he leaves the pro shop after graduating college and finding work in his chosen field.
As to the pro shop owner who might not be a 220 average bowler,could I suggest talking to other bowlers who have had stuff drilled up by this guy and see what they say?
This kind of reminds me of the old saying about someone we all might know who, even though they can't boil water or lost the recipe for ice cubes,is a very capable accountant who can find the deduction in your taxes that means that instead of paying you actually get a refund.
Good luck and knock em dead!!!!!!!!!!!
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Chris

Author Topic: Would you buy a ball from an average bowler? (Read 1012 times)

CountryClubBowler

Would you buy a ball from an average bowler?

no1bucsfan

Re: Would you buy a ball from an average bowler?

charlest

Re: Would you buy a ball from an average bowler?

CountryClubBowler

Re: Would you buy a ball from an average bowler?

Pinbuster

Re: Would you buy a ball from an average bowler?

tenpinspro

Re: Would you buy a ball from an average bowler?

nd300

Re: Would you buy a ball from an average bowler?