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Author Topic: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all  (Read 8639 times)

Gizmo823

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Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« on: April 22, 2013, 01:02:18 PM »
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/north-carolina-man-rolls-1st-152314978--spt.html

Scroll down and read the comments.  Some are more positive than I expected, but there's no denying the collective public opinion.  HIGH SCORES ARE BAD FOR BOWLING, point and case.  So unfortunate for this guy who REALLY accomplished something to have it regarded like this. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

 

kidlost2000

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2013, 05:51:24 PM »
Golf has attracted a younger market then bowling. The many youth getting involved in golf can go see the PGA because the PGA tours the country. The PBA has condensed 90% or its National "Tour" to one location.

Does not tour
Bolwing= Lame

Does tour
Golf= Cool
Basketball= Cool
Football= Cool
Baseball= Cool
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

DP3

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2013, 06:44:14 PM »
Sucks that this guy shot 900 and didn't make match play cut.

Long Gone Daddy

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2013, 08:51:09 PM »
Lowering the scoring pace of bowling as a panacea to "heal" bowling is just so patently simplistic and would prove to be so ineffective over the years the idea should be dropped immediately.  What proponents of that absurd idea forget is skill is skill, higher skilled people will still score higher than lesser skilled players no matter how much the overall bar has been lowered or raised.  It's all relative.  I have no idea why some people can't get this thru their heads.

The reasons that bowling membership is down have already been mentioned.  High scoring isn't one of them.  I also don't know of anybody hat quit because of scores being to high but there are some people that I sure wish would so they'd quit posting the same nonsense over and over. 
Long Gone also posts the honest truth which is why i respect him. He posts these things knowing some may not like it.

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looseleftie

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2013, 02:23:50 AM »
re scoring enviroment, Dick Weber was ave 240 plus in his house league some 50yrs ago, now we have many more bowlers around 225 +, so I think scoring isn't the genuine reason people have left the sport... There are so many other reasons..
Less disposable income, technology (internet, Iphone, Playstations/X box), public perception of bowling, work schedules, lack of promotion and a hundred other reasons..

I think getting the kids into leagues and bowling in general has to be a big priority, amongst several here... Who is coming through in 20 yrs time.. I read the average Joe Bowler is around 53yrs of age. Quoting from memory here... There will be a large percentage droppin off over that period..

Feel free to rip me apart for this baseless comment here.. But kids are too bloody lazy in general.. They want it now, and don't want to have to work overly hard for anything.. I work with kids, have 3 of my own, but they have many other options to spend their valuable leisure time on and soothe their egos (very much like some house bowlers we all know at our centers)..

 Bowling takes time, and it is frustrating, and it can be soul destroying. If bowling was seen as "the coolest" thing to do, the kids would be all over it..So promotion and perception of bowling both have to have a bit of a makeover here..

Bowling needs to get it's face out there for all to see, not just the people who are already interested in the sport..Lower the scores, fine, but u need more than just that.

Gizmo823

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2013, 10:43:18 AM »
Lowering the scoring pace of bowling as a panacea to "heal" bowling is just so patently simplistic and would prove to be so ineffective over the years the idea should be dropped immediately.  What proponents of that absurd idea forget is skill is skill, higher skilled people will still score higher than lesser skilled players no matter how much the overall bar has been lowered or raised.  It's all relative.  I have no idea why some people can't get this thru their heads.

The reasons that bowling membership is down have already been mentioned.  High scoring isn't one of them.  I also don't know of anybody hat quit because of scores being to high but there are some people that I sure wish would so they'd quit posting the same nonsense over and over.

So I assume you still play tic tac toe on a regular basis?  I'm not going to deny that your points all have very applicable validity.  But it's a lot easier to hit a 6 board area than to hit a 2 board area.  Games that lack challenge or fail to constantly challenge people won't get very far.  I've averaged within 2 or 3 pins for the last 5 or 6 years now even though I've physically gotten better and have gotten much smarter.  However, on a house shot there's a cap, and when you get a bunch of guys together that average 220+ it's really a crapshoot as to who is gonna win.  At the same time, my average and performance on sport conditions has continued to go up.  Why is that?  If I'm getting better and more accurate, why doesn't my house shot average continue to go up?  You may have guys that can hit a 2 board area every time, but if you add some guys in that can hit 3-4 boards out of a 6 board area, they're equal.  If you added 6 inches to the diameter of a basketball goal, Shaq's free throw percentage would go up pretty significantly, but you can't then compare him to Reggie Miller, even if the numbers are closer.  The better bowler wins significantly fewer times on a house shot than they would on a tougher shot.  Just because you haven't been around people or known people that made a decision on bowling based on the scoring pace doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  I don't want to name drop or add names to this conversation that don't want to be a part of it, but I know several professionally successful people who don't bowl anymore specifically because of the scoring pace.  If it's on a house shot or or involves handicap, they won't bowl, so by default, they just don't bowl much anymore.  Have several collegiate friends that don't bowl leagues during the season, but they'll come bowl our PBA Exp league in the summer. 

You also can't tell me that if the PGA made the cups bigger, made fairways wider, made courses shorter, and we started seeing sub 60 rounds out of the pros consistently that golf wouldn't fall off the face of the earth.  Golf is respected and popular because of the challenge it offers.  Bowling offers no such challenge.  And I don't want to hear "well bowling is still challenging to a lot of people."  So is golf, but it's the degree of challenge.  The further above 200 you get, the more your score depends on carry, and when hitting the pocket isn't a challenge, winning or losing on a high scoring condition is based almost entirely on carry.  A stone 8 here, and a ring 10 here is the difference between 300 and 258.  A stone 8 and a ring ten in the middle of a dutch 200 is the difference between 200 and 198.  Economics have driven people away from bowling, yes, but they are CHOOSING other activities OVER bowling because bowling doesn't offer the challenge, nor the rewards that other sports/games do.  Bowling wasn't ever as lucrative as other sports, but when titles were worth 25k in the late 80's, that was a hell of a lot of money back then. 

You can't tell me that a game without any appreciable difficulty will sustain participation, and the numbers support that.  The membership decline corresponds directly with the increase in averages and honor scores.  Other economical factors DO contribute, BUT if you'll look at the numbers, the decline and change happened a significant amount of time before the economy had anything to do with it.  This was pre 9-11, gas was still under 1.50, people had jobs.  Other sports continue to rise despite the economy, so you can't use the argument that the economy alone despite every other factor is to blame, because if it was, it would have the same effect across the board.  I've got a lot of time in this, I have a lot of experience in this, and have several very big names in the industry that share the same opinions and read the information the same way I read it.  Lack of challenge, lack of information, lack of coaching, and lack of integrity has run this sport into the ground, case closed. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

LuckyLefty

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2013, 11:42:42 AM »
Gizmo,

Case closed!  You HAVE convinced yourself!  I'm convinced of it!

Regards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

Steven

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2013, 12:16:53 PM »

I'm not going to deny that your points all have very applicable validity.  But it's a lot easier to hit a 6 board area than to hit a 2 board area.  Games that lack challenge or fail to constantly challenge people won't get very far.  I've averaged within 2 or 3 pins for the last 5 or 6 years now even though I've physically gotten better and have gotten much smarter.  However, on a house shot there's a cap, and when you get a bunch of guys together that average 220+ it's really a crapshoot as to who is gonna win.


Yes, sometimes LGD gets lucky and posts valid points. Maybe it's a little like the 6-board area you discuss.  :)


From personal experience, I just can't agree that it's a mindless crapshoot when you put a bunch of 220+ bowlers together. I bowl in one of the best THS scratch leagues in SoCal. If you examined the league sheets over the past 10 years, you'd see the same relative pecking order one year after the next. It hardly ever changes over the course of a 100+ game season. Skill always wins out over the long run. The guys who can apply sport shot level skill to the THS are flat out more consistent, and consistency means a higher average. I've never seen a variant to the phenomena in the many upper crust leagues I've bowled over the past 15 years.


If you're physically better and smarter but still not improving on your THS, you're not focusing on the right skills to improve your average. To be really good (235-240) on a THS isn't luck. Especially study the older guys doing it and you'll understand where to focus.


As far as the 'decline", you'd need to go back in time to the so called glory days of bowling. The work world was dominated by blue collar types who worked 8-5 jobs. There were exactly 3 channels on TV to watch (ABC, NBC, CBS). "Cable" was something used in construction. All phones had cords and you dialed with a disk punched with holes for your fingers -- there was nothing 'smart' about them. There was no Internet to provide endless hours of mindless enjoyment. It was a much more limited world in which to live. Bowling was one of the few outside activities at the time, and people flocked to the lanes. The world is upside down now. That old reality doesn't exist anymore.


As has been stated by many earlier, scoring has nothing to do with it.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 12:19:41 PM by Steven »

Long Gone Daddy

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2013, 02:01:14 PM »

I'm not going to deny that your points all have very applicable validity.  But it's a lot easier to hit a 6 board area than to hit a 2 board area.  Games that lack challenge or fail to constantly challenge people won't get very far.  I've averaged within 2 or 3 pins for the last 5 or 6 years now even though I've physically gotten better and have gotten much smarter.  However, on a house shot there's a cap, and when you get a bunch of guys together that average 220+ it's really a crapshoot as to who is gonna win.


Yes, sometimes LGD gets lucky and posts valid points. Maybe it's a little like the 6-board area you discuss.  :)


From personal experience, I just can't agree that it's a mindless crapshoot when you put a bunch of 220+ bowlers together. I bowl in one of the best THS scratch leagues in SoCal. If you examined the league sheets over the past 10 years, you'd see the same relative pecking order one year after the next. It hardly ever changes over the course of a 100+ game season. Skill always wins out over the long run. The guys who can apply sport shot level skill to the THS are flat out more consistent, and consistency means a higher average. I've never seen a variant to the phenomena in the many upper crust leagues I've bowled over the past 15 years.


If you're physically better and smarter but still not improving on your THS, you're not focusing on the right skills to improve your average. To be really good (235-240) on a THS isn't luck. Especially study the older guys doing it and you'll understand where to focus.


As far as the 'decline", you'd need to go back in time to the so called glory days of bowling. The work world was dominated by blue collar types who worked 8-5 jobs. There were exactly 3 channels on TV to watch (ABC, NBC, CBS). "Cable" was something used in construction. All phones had cords and you dialed with a disk punched with holes for your fingers -- there was nothing 'smart' about them. There was no Internet to provide endless hours of mindless enjoyment. It was a much more limited world in which to live. Bowling was one of the few outside activities at the time, and people flocked to the lanes. The world is upside down now. That old reality doesn't exist anymore.


As has been stated by many earlier, scoring has nothing to do with it.

yep!  Somtimes steven makes points with no trace of pompousness.  ;D 

But, truly, his last sentence really says it all, scoring has nothing to do with it.  Let it go, already.   
Long Gone also posts the honest truth which is why i respect him. He posts these things knowing some may not like it.

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Gizmo823

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2013, 03:22:46 PM »
So you're saying guys like Pete Weber and Belmonte would win just as many games against a local pro on a house shot as they would on a PBA shot? 

You can't practice carry.  So why does my sport average continue to go up while my house average stays the same?  The house shots have not changed in years, while the PBA patterns change every 2 weeks. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

Steven

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2013, 04:45:23 PM »
So you're saying guys like Pete Weber and Belmonte would win just as many games against a local pro on a house shot as they would on a PBA shot? 

You can't practice carry.  So why does my sport average continue to go up while my house average stays the same?  The house shots have not changed in years, while the PBA patterns change every 2 weeks.


I'm absolutely saying the touring pros should dominate on a house shot against the local and Regional hacks. I've seen it first hand. When Robert Smith was still living locally during his peak years, he dominated our scratch league. In his last year with us, he averaged 241 in the winter league (during breaks in tour stops). In his last summer league with us, he averaged 237, exclusively using a plastic Storm Soccer Ball. Nobody doubted the gulf between him and the rest of us.

To your second point, as far as carry goes it's something you actually can practice. There really is a reason for bowlers leaving 10 pin after 10 pin, or can't get the 7 pin out on many medium hits. I'd have to watch you to provide any constructive input, but there is always a reason. As far as your sport shot average, it's going up because naturally, there is so much more room to improve. This is true for most of us.

Gizmo823

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2013, 05:54:28 PM »
So you're saying guys like Pete Weber and Belmonte would win just as many games against a local pro on a house shot as they would on a PBA shot? 

You can't practice carry.  So why does my sport average continue to go up while my house average stays the same?  The house shots have not changed in years, while the PBA patterns change every 2 weeks.


I'm absolutely saying the touring pros should dominate on a house shot against the local and Regional hacks. I've seen it first hand. When Robert Smith was still living locally during his peak years, he dominated our scratch league. In his last year with us, he averaged 241 in the winter league (during breaks in tour stops). In his last summer league with us, he averaged 237, exclusively using a plastic Storm Soccer Ball. Nobody doubted the gulf between him and the rest of us.

To your second point, as far as carry goes it's something you actually can practice. There really is a reason for bowlers leaving 10 pin after 10 pin, or can't get the 7 pin out on many medium hits. I'd have to watch you to provide any constructive input, but there is always a reason. As far as your sport shot average, it's going up because naturally, there is so much more room to improve. This is true for most of us.

I'm not talking about leaving the same pin several times, I'm talking about leaving a 9 pin in the 4th and a solid 7 in the 9th to shoot 258 and lose to a guy that tripped a 4 pin, and caved the big 4 for 260-something.  I don't like keeping every shot within 3 boards and losing to a guy who has the 4 board AND the 12 board.  My 258 would still be 220+ while his 260-something is in the 190s on a tougher shot. 

So Robert Smith won every single match then I take it?  The only way it's fair or even in my mind is if the exact same amount of games are won on a house shot as compared to a sport shot.  If he wins 8 out of 10 on a house shot, but wins 10 out of 10 against the same guys on a sport shot, that's not right. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

Pinbuster

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2013, 06:07:01 PM »
While the cream will rise to the top over the long haul the biggest issue I have seen with a carry fest is how much your score can be affected by when you get tapped.

Say you and your opponent both throw 12 quality shots and each one of you leaves a solid 8 pin on one shot.

Depending on when that tap occurs you can shoot from 279 to 299. Up to a 20 pin difference in situation where neither bowler threw a non-quality shot.

Steven

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2013, 06:53:13 PM »

I'm not talking about leaving the same pin several times, I'm talking about leaving a 9 pin in the 4th and a solid 7 in the 9th to shoot 258 and lose to a guy that tripped a 4 pin, and caved the big 4 for 260-something.  I don't like keeping every shot within 3 boards and losing to a guy who has the 4 board AND the 12 board.  My 258 would still be 220+ while his 260-something is in the 190s on a tougher shot. 

So Robert Smith won every single match then I take it?  The only way it's fair or even in my mind is if the exact same amount of games are won on a house shot as compared to a sport shot.  If he wins 8 out of 10 on a house shot, but wins 10 out of 10 against the same guys on a sport shot, that's not right.


No, Robert didn't win every match. It wasn't a scrub league -- lots of quality players. He occasionally lost some to guys who happened to throw a little better in a given match, and he lost a few when the other guy got some fortunate carry. Heck, I was even able to steal a game or two from him.

The point is that he won most of his matches. He was top dog in every measurable category. That's all that matters and was the point I was trying to make. I'll occasionally lose match points to a lesser skilled player because they'll just sometimes execute better than me, and for the same reason, I'll sometimes beat the guys a notch up from me. That's true at all levels of competition, regardless of the pattern.


Everybody leaves stone 9-pins, stone 8-pins, and stone 7-pins. Everybody. We just happen to remember the ones that beat us. That's human nature.  The only way to logically look at this is what happens in the longer term. It all evens out. The more skilled guys are going to end up on top.


Your question about comparative wins on a sport shot is interesting. Unfortunately, we rarely get to meet the same set of bowlers on different conditions. I will say that on really tough sport shots, I'll sometimes see a guy who can throw straight beat players they would never beat on a THS. They aren't more skilled, they simply found a way to overcome pure grunge. There aren't any absolutes here.

Long Gone Daddy

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2013, 09:07:13 PM »
So you're saying guys like Pete Weber and Belmonte would win just as many games against a local pro on a house shot as they would on a PBA shot? 

You can't practice carry.  So why does my sport average continue to go up while my house average stays the same?  The house shots have not changed in years, while the PBA patterns change every 2 weeks.


I'm absolutely saying the touring pros should dominate on a house shot against the local and Regional hacks. I've seen it first hand. When Robert Smith was still living locally during his peak years, he dominated our scratch league. In his last year with us, he averaged 241 in the winter league (during breaks in tour stops). In his last summer league with us, he averaged 237, exclusively using a plastic Storm Soccer Ball. Nobody doubted the gulf between him and the rest of us.

To your second point, as far as carry goes it's something you actually can practice. There really is a reason for bowlers leaving 10 pin after 10 pin, or can't get the 7 pin out on many medium hits. I'd have to watch you to provide any constructive input, but there is always a reason. As far as your sport shot average, it's going up because naturally, there is so much more room to improve. This is true for most of us.

I'm not talking about leaving the same pin several times, I'm talking about leaving a 9 pin in the 4th and a solid 7 in the 9th to shoot 258 and lose to a guy that tripped a 4 pin, and caved the big 4 for 260-something.  I don't like keeping every shot within 3 boards and losing to a guy who has the 4 board AND the 12 board.  My 258 would still be 220+ while his 260-something is in the 190s on a tougher shot. 

So Robert Smith won every single match then I take it?  The only way it's fair or even in my mind is if the exact same amount of games are won on a house shot as compared to a sport shot.  If he wins 8 out of 10 on a house shot, but wins 10 out of 10 against the same guys on a sport shot, that's not right.

Again, this is just sour grapes about losing to somebody your colossal ego won't allow you to believe you can lose to.  You've had about 90% of respondents tell you that scoring pace has nothing to do with reduced numbers of league bowlers.  That really should tell you something.
Long Gone also posts the honest truth which is why i respect him. He posts these things knowing some may not like it.

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LuckyLefty

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2013, 07:52:10 AM »
Ah Carry?

I saw the fella that shot the 900, he had a style that oozed of carry.  Similar to other wonderful carry bowlers he had an early thumb release, a long flat spot, a lot of natural loft, and a great amount of leg drive in his final step.

Very similar to some of the best league and carry bowlers I have seen. 

One of the qualifying leaders of this awesome senior tournament did not used to a high carry bowler, was several years ago a mediocre carry bowler while being a well known sport condition expert.

Over the last 10 years he has dramatically improved his league averages and slightly increased his sport condition results.

He made changes in his game which included a faster thumb, a focus on his flat spot and amount of loft(increased it), less focus on splicing boards at the arrows, and a slight reduction in speed to match his rev rate(especially under pressure). 

While still being a great PBA condition bowler he has recorded averages over 20 pins higher than he was down to 10 years ago.

As to the condition where all these great scores were shot on this PBA condition many very very good bowlers had many a shot miss the head pin on this condition particularly if they had axis rotations of over 35 degrees.

Great carry on league conditions is its own art/science.

REgards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana