BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Motiv => Topic started by: nadertime78 on March 15, 2016, 11:38:58 PM
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I didn't see this in the Jackal post, but my question is can Motiv survive this financially?
Been using just Motiv for over a year now and seeing any sort downward trend in the products or change in ownership would suck.
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They will be fine
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Opinion only, but I believe Motiv will be fine PROVIDED the company steps up and pays drilling fees on the new balls replacing the bad Jackals/Carnages. I know how much I have into drilling my Jackal and Carnage and it will be a cold day you know where if I have to pay to have the new ones drilled because of a mistake that I DID NOT commit. There is already bad taste in consumer's mouths because of this. By making the consumer then pay to have the new ball drilled is only going to make that bad taste worse. I know I will not use any Motiv product (including bags, shirts, etc) if I am told to pay to have the new balls drilled. Yeah that is a ton of money for Motiv to shell out but they caused the issue, not me.
if Motiv says no way and does not move on the stance of not paying for the new balls to be drilled, I think we are going to be seeing a ton of stuff dumped on ebay soon, including the balls that are NIB sent to the consumer as a replacement for the bad Jackal/Carnage.
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Good luck getting any more than a replacement ball. When is the last time you were given anything more than a replacement ball for any warranty claim? Pro shops usually eat the drilling on the replacement if you purchased the ball from them, which most will probably do in this situation. Internet ball, again, good luck.
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Its...you are unfortunately 100% correct.
However, in this case there is a difference and that is the ball was not produced as required by USBC specs. Although not a lawyer, in my research for my doctorate degree, I found companies trying to shortcut the process of product replacement were taken to court and lost, which ended up a lot worse in the long run for the company. Lawyer fees, more bad PR, and they had to pay the additional costs anyhow in the long run.
I could see the potential (and potential being the underlined word here) that if Motiv refuses to pay for drill fees, a class action lawsuit could be filed against the company by anyone that bought either model. I know several lawyers that could make this case very easy for a judge/jury to rule against Motiv. Motiv has already accepted responsibility by agreeing to replace balls produced outside USBC specs. Customers bought ball believing ball was within USBC specs, box says so, ball stamped with USBC engraving. Customer was deceived, customer was harmed monetarily by paying for a new ball to be drilled. Company at fault and caused the customer to lose money.
Could you imagine if you received a notice from GM/Ford/Chrysler that your car had a defective part and was being recalled....and the form said that although you will get the part for free, you have to pay the dealership for labor expenses when the part is replaced? NOT HAPPENING! GM/Ford/Chrysler reimburses the dealer for labor fees associated with the number of replacement parts installed. No difference here. Ball is essentially being recalled. Motiv needs to work with pro shops to track how many replacement balls were drilled and refund the pro shop a negotiated amount for each drill. Yep, they need to cover grips, slugs, ITs, etc.
Be careful Motiv. Be very careful.
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Motiv will not pay for drilling. Some people have grips, slugs etc...plus different prices all over the country. They will replace the ball and thats all they are required to do.
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Its...you are unfortunately 100% correct.
However, in this case there is a difference and that is the ball was not produced as required by USBC specs. Although not a lawyer, in my research for my doctorate degree, I found companies trying to shortcut the process of product replacement were taken to court and lost, which ended up a lot worse in the long run for the company. Lawyer fees, more bad PR, and they had to pay the additional costs anyhow in the long run.
I could see the potential (and potential being the underlined word here) that if Motiv refuses to pay for drill fees, a class action lawsuit could be filed against the company by anyone that bought either model. I know several lawyers that could make this case very easy for a judge/jury to rule against Motiv. Motiv has already accepted responsibility by agreeing to replace balls produced outside USBC specs. Customers bought ball believing ball was within USBC specs, box says so, ball stamped with USBC engraving. Customer was deceived, customer was harmed monetarily by paying for a new ball to be drilled. Company at fault and caused the customer to lose money.
Could you imagine if you received a notice from GM/Ford/Chrysler that your car had a defective part and was being recalled....and the form said that although you will get the part for free, you have to pay the dealership for labor expenses when the part is replaced? NOT HAPPENING! GM/Ford/Chrysler reimburses the dealer for labor fees associated with the number of replacement parts installed. No difference here. Ball is essentially being recalled. Motiv needs to work with pro shops to track how many replacement balls were drilled and refund the pro shop a negotiated amount for each drill. Yep, they need to cover grips, slugs, ITs, etc.
Be careful Motiv. Be very careful.
In the grand scheme of things they likely have not sold enough balls to make any sort of class action worthwhile. If they are replacing the ball that is their responsibility, drilling fees are not and it would be much harder to tie those fees to them in court.
It is different from your car example as you bought that vehicle with the part installed, in the motiv case you bought a ball that is apparently now non-conforming then paid to have holes put in it which you had no obligation to do. Further if I have a case of these balls sitting at home how would Motiv ever prove that they were drilled and at what cost.
It's going to piss people off but mistakes happen.
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I'm hearing that this will be a 7 digit loss. And the first number, isn't a one. :o
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I'm hearing that this will be a 7 digit loss. And the first number, isn't a one. :o
Holy schniekies! :(
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I would argue that to use said product, consumer has to drill the ball. Please provide any examples of anyone using a ball with no gripping holes of any kind? None I can think of, so to use the product, consumer must pay to have the ball drilled. I doubt many folks buy a ball with no intentions to eventually use the ball or to sell the ball to someone who is going to use the ball.
You are correct on class action status...may not have enough, but, Motiv should step up. And just because there are different fees across the country, I suggested Motiv enter into an arrangement with PSOs for a negotiated fee (read lower than advertised) to allow the shops to receive some nominal income from this, ensure the consumer is not harmed, and to look really good in the matter by picking up the fees.
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I would argue that to use said product, consumer has to drill the ball. Please provide any examples of anyone using a ball with no gripping holes of any kind? None I can think of, so to use the product, consumer must pay to have the ball drilled. I doubt many folks buy a ball with no intentions to eventually use the ball or to sell the ball to someone who is going to use the ball.
You are correct on class action status...may not have enough, but, Motiv should step up. And just because there are different fees across the country, I suggested Motiv enter into an arrangement with PSOs for a negotiated fee (read lower than advertised) to allow the shops to receive some nominal income from this, ensure the consumer is not harmed, and to look really good in the matter by picking up the fees.
I disagree. The bowling company isn't responsible for drilling. They are only responsible for the ball. If you are too cheap to come off 50 bucks for a ball to be drilled, then that is a whole 'nother argument. You mentioned cars and dealerships earlier. Well, the same company that does the warranty work, installs the part... Ford, GM, BMW, and so on. But Motiv, Ebonite, Storm do not drill balls. So they should not reimburse anyone for drilling fees. You can still use your Jackal's in unsanctioned tournaments, leagues, and practices. So it's not a useless object. But you are getting any Motiv ball of choice to replace it. How much more do you want, Bernie Sanders?
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Hey the TKK shill is back!
I would not have to drill a new ball if Motiv wouldn't have messed up in the first place, This was not my choice to have the ball replaced. Ball is being replaced because of a Motiv screw up.
So I do agree that the bowling company in normal course of business is NOT responsible for drilling. ZERO. But when their error caused me to replace a ball in my arsenal that I had no control or say over, then it does become their responsibility. I purchased the ball in full faith that the ball met all rules and regulations set forth by the USBC. The ball didn't. Motiv sold a faulty product.
Oh, I voted for Trump last night.
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If you can't pay for a mistake, you are in the wrong business.
In the stock brokerage world, if a company drops below a reserve threshhold, a threshhold put in place to ensure against losses such as lawsuits...you are closed down. I have seen it twice personally.
So what someone is saying because Motiv doesn't have the money to fix a mistake, hey let's allow them to continue to operate just because? Thats total BS....that is the same theory that says hey, because the ball was CLOSE to specs, let's not make it illegal. What is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. Period.
So GM makes a faulty car part that causes millions in damages...kills people. But because GM doesn't have enough money to cover the losses between lawsuits and replacements, we shouldn't ask for what is right (making the consumer whole for a corporate mistake?)?
Really?
If Motiv can't stay in business because of the issue, that's Motiv's fault. Company should have had better testing on the line to ensure the product met all USBC regulations. if they did test, somewhere the company would have to know that some of the balls being produced were not meeting regulations.
So what if it comes out that Motiv KNEW and continued to produce and sell the ball? Still ok to sell the ball and make consumers pay for Motiv's profit?
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Guess some have bag PSO's. All my customers who purchased through me are getting replacements (when they chose) drilled at no cost to them. It's called Good Customer Service and will keep customer happy and will create future ball purchases. Bowlers are already pissy without any issues and keeping them happy means future business.
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Way to step up Mr Helton. I don't agree that you should absorb the cost of grips/slugs because of Motiv's fault, but if you are willing to, I am sure not going to tell you how to run your business.
Yep, there are many dirt bag PSOs out there today.
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Hey the TKK shill is back!
I would not have to drill a new ball if Motiv wouldn't have messed up in the first place, This was not my choice to have the ball replaced. Ball is being replaced because of a Motiv screw up.
So I do agree that the bowling company in normal course of business is NOT responsible for drilling. ZERO. But when their error caused me to replace a ball in my arsenal that I had no control or say over, then it does become their responsibility. I purchased the ball in full faith that the ball met all rules and regulations set forth by the USBC. The ball didn't. Motiv sold a faulty product.
Oh, I voted for Trump last night.
3835,
Shill- an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.
Not quite seeing how that ties in here. But anyway. You are responsible for the holes in the ball. Read the box. If you do not like it, then don't buy another Motiv product. YOU will not affect their bottom line. Just like I haven't affected the bottom line of Brunswick by not buying after moving to Mexico (but there stuff is extremely tempting on clearance through distributors).
If you can't pay for a mistake, you are in the wrong business.
In the stock brokerage world, if a company drops below a reserve threshhold, a threshhold put in place to ensure against losses such as lawsuits...you are closed down. I have seen it twice personally.
So what someone is saying because Motiv doesn't have the money to fix a mistake, hey let's allow them to continue to operate just because? Thats total BS....that is the same theory that says hey, because the ball was CLOSE to specs, let's not make it illegal. What is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. Period.
So GM makes a faulty car part that causes millions in damages...kills people. But because GM doesn't have enough money to cover the losses between lawsuits and replacements, we shouldn't ask for what is right (making the consumer whole for a corporate mistake?)?
Really?
If Motiv can't stay in business because of the issue, that's Motiv's fault. Company should have had better testing on the line to ensure the product met all USBC regulations. if they did test, somewhere the company would have to know that some of the balls being produced were not meeting regulations.
So what if it comes out that Motiv KNEW and continued to produce and sell the ball? Still ok to sell the ball and make consumers pay for Motiv's profit?
Now this? Where has anyone said that they do not have the money to fix the issue? They are fixing the issue. You just want more... This has nothing to do with stocks, GM, or faulty parts. This comes down to you wanting free drilling. I say they give you 2 dollars for you inserts and 5 dollars for your slug. Would you accept that?
Way to step up Mr Helton. I don't agree that you should absorb the cost of grips/slugs because of Motiv's fault, but if you are willing to, I am sure not going to tell you how to run your business.
Yep, there are many dirt bag PSOs out there today.
Weren't you a former driller, 3835? I think I've seen you post that between your 2 names. Would you give free drilling? If so, then don't complain about Motiv not paying for it. If not, I guess you are a former dirt bag PSO...
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I did read the box. Box says USBC approved because it meets ALL USBC regulations. Ball was found to not meet said regulations as advertised on box. Ball was supposed to meet USBC specs before I put holes in the ball. Ball did not.
Ok, so get Motiv for false or misleading advertisement? I drilled the ball based on assurance from the company the ball was approved for all sanctioned competition. Period. Why would I want a ball in my arsenal that when I go to league/state/nationals I could not use? Thus, if I knew going in the ball would not be USBC certified, I would not have purchased the product.
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I did read the box. Box says USBC approved because it meets ALL USBC regulations. Ball was found to not meet said regulations as advertised on box. Ball was supposed to meet USBC specs before I put holes in the ball. Ball did not.
Ok, so get Motiv for false or misleading advertisement? I drilled the ball based on assurance from the company the ball was approved for all sanctioned competition. Period. Why would I want a ball in my arsenal that when I go to league/state/nationals I could not use? Thus, if I knew going in the ball would not be USBC certified, I would not have purchased the product.
But the ball was legal when you bought it. I assume you purchased it before 3/15/2016. Anything before that date, legal. Go ahead and sue over less than 50 bucks and find out why you are what's wrong with America.
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Thanks. I have been in the business for 18 years and never ask for freebies or compensation from my sources. To many bowlers expect handouts and compensation. I have created great rapport in this business and when I get in a bind, I have always been taken care of properly. I am covering all balls purchased through me. Now balls purchased online or elsewhere (which is zero in this case) the customer would be responsible for all redrilling cost as the cost of doing business online. I know some shops charge for grips/slugs on a ball purchased through them and cracks. I cover that also when purchased through me. It is very minimal when I have less than 1% of the balls I sell returned due to cracks. The benefits of doing business this way far out way an unhappy customer.
Way to step up Mr Helton. I don't agree that you should absorb the cost of grips/slugs because of Motiv's fault, but if you are willing to, I am sure not going to tell you how to run your business.
Yep, there are many dirt bag PSOs out there today.
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Thanks. I have been in the business for 18 years and never ask for freebies or compensation from my sources. To many bowlers expect handouts and compensation. I have created great rapport in this business and when I get in a bind, I have always been taken care of properly. I am covering all balls purchased through me. Now balls purchased online or elsewhere (which is zero in this case) the customer would be responsible for all redrilling cost as the cost of doing business online. I know some shops charge for grips/slugs on a ball purchased through them and cracks. I cover that also when purchased through me. It is very minimal when I have less than 1% of the balls I sell returned due to cracks. The benefits of doing business this way far out way an unhappy customer.
Way to step up Mr Helton. I don't agree that you should absorb the cost of grips/slugs because of Motiv's fault, but if you are willing to, I am sure not going to tell you how to run your business.
Yep, there are many dirt bag PSOs out there today.
3835/Wowzers is one of those bowlers wanting handouts, clearly.
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Nice one TKK.
I don't need a handout. But go ahead and resort to personal attacks rather than the subject at hand. Motiv advertised a ball that met USBC specs, and eventually the ball was found to not meet said specs. Ball didn't come with holes in it, I put them there after I had the guarantee or whatever you call the USBC stamp on the box and the ball says a customer is getting for the ball to meet USBC specs.
I only want Motiv to replace drilling. Period. Not a penny more, not pay an extra whatever, but I cannot use the replacement ball without it getting drilled. There would be no need for a replacement ball if Motiv would have produced the ball as expected and tested by the USBC.
Consumer had no hand in this and the issue occurred prior to any consumer interaction.
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Nice one TKK.
I don't need a handout. But go ahead and resort to personal attacks rather than the subject at hand. Motiv advertised a ball that met USBC specs, and eventually the ball was found to not meet said specs. Ball didn't come with holes in it, I put them there after I had the guarantee or whatever you call the USBC stamp on the box and the ball says a customer is getting for the ball to meet USBC specs.
I only want Motiv to replace drilling. Period. Not a penny more, not pay an extra whatever, but I cannot use the replacement ball without it getting drilled. There would be no need for a replacement ball if Motiv would have produced the ball as expected and tested by the USBC.
Consumer had no hand in this and the issue occurred prior to any consumer interaction.
I don't normally post but you thinking the company should pay drilling fees is rather idiotic.
If you get a ball and you put holes in it but due to some factors out of your control the said ball cracks what happens? Company replaces the ball and that is it, they don't pay for your drilling that is on you.
I personally was unfortunate enough to buy a Jackal exactly one week ago today. Lucky for me I didn't drill it yet but even if I had I wouldn't expect anyone to pay for my drilling.
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Motiv is a great company. They have great support from their fans and are too big to fail ultimately from a ~0.004 differential miss.
Yes, the failed QC is financial blow, but they will bounce back even harder and would be even more-so #Motivated
Currently, there is a petition for the USBC to (re)grandfather in the Jackal and Jackal Carnage. The Raptor series uses the same core along with the international Jackal Pro and Sapphire Jackal and are STILL APPROVED for sanctioned play.
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Why should a consumer pay for the use of a faulty product? We were mislead into thinking the ball met regulations before we put holes in it.
As for a ball that cracks, we now have many variables in play. Did the ball sit overnight in freezing temps after drilling? How about where was the pin in relation to the drilled holes? Did the ball bake for too long at a very high temp? Did the driller use bad drill bits? Did the driller drill too fast, building heat around the cover and cause the cover to be brittle? Was it a manufacturing defect?
We don't know as it could be any of those issues...or anything else (simple wear and tear from being throw down a wood lane for 60 feet, impacting pins that weight 3 + pounds each, hitting a machine, and being rolled back down the lane to do it all again?
However in this case, the ball was out of spec before it was in the consumer's hands. Not caused by use, or a bad PSO, or bad manufacturing, or lots of use....this was 100% Motiv's fault on manufacturing a product out of spec.
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Nice one TKK.
I don't need a handout. But go ahead and resort to personal attacks rather than the subject at hand. Motiv advertised a ball that met USBC specs, and eventually the ball was found to not meet said specs. Ball didn't come with holes in it, I put them there after I had the guarantee or whatever you call the USBC stamp on the box and the ball says a customer is getting for the ball to meet USBC specs.
I only want Motiv to replace drilling. Period. Not a penny more, not pay an extra whatever, but I cannot use the replacement ball without it getting drilled. There would be no need for a replacement ball if Motiv would have produced the ball as expected and tested by the USBC.
Consumer had no hand in this and the issue occurred prior to any consumer interaction.
I never attacked you or anyone. You called me the shill, remember? I just stated that you wanted a free handout, which you do in the form of drilling. Please go back and quote my attacks on you or anyone else. Unless me saying that you are wanting handouts like Bernie Sanders is an insult...
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Remark...
Just because it is the same core shape does not mean it is different densities. How do we know that the cores have the same densities?
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Hey TKK
So I should use more of my money on a product that was advertised as one thing, is not, and I should put MORE money in to help the company that caused the problem to fix the problem?
Take that theory to any other sport/business. So you work in a shop or own one, right? So you order product XYZ that is certified for X use. You get the product, use it, and find out later the product is not certified because it does not meet regulations, regulations the company said it met (including on the box and on the product itself, plus the company's website). So you should have to pay something to get the product replaced that you thought met certain standards but didn't?
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Hey TKK
So I should use more of my money on a product that was advertised as one thing, is not, and I should put MORE money in to help the company that caused the problem to fix the problem?
Take that theory to any other sport/business. So you work in a shop or own one, right? So you order product XYZ that is certified for X use. You get the product, use it, and find out later the product is not certified because it does not meet regulations, regulations the company said it met (including on the box and on the product itself, plus the company's website). So you should have to pay something to get the product replaced that you thought met certain standards but didn't?
I think you should take the replacement ball you get from Motiv and sell it, that way you won't loose on drilling twice and you can break even..
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Not a bad idea...actually I will get 2 replacement balls, one for the Jackal and one for the Carnage.
Problem is everyone is satisfied with a company that is not fully standing up for the issue it caused because the company is sending out a replacement ball for the out of spec products.
So...if criminals only had to pay for the crime...let's go to work tomorrow, rob a bank, embezzle from your employer, etc. Get caught, serve jail time, but because we should be satisfied with serving jail time, no repaying the money you stole because it is okay to just do part of what is right instead of making the business whole, or in this case, the consumer that supported you.
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Not a bad idea...actually I will get 2 replacement balls, one for the Jackal and one for the Carnage.
Problem is everyone is satisfied with a company that is not fully standing up for the issue it caused because the company is sending out a replacement ball for the out of spec products.
So...if criminals only had to pay for the crime...let's go to work tomorrow, rob a bank, embezzle from your employer, etc. Get caught, serve jail time, but because we should be satisfied with serving jail time, no repaying the money you stole because it is okay to just do part of what is right instead of making the business whole, or in this case, the consumer that supported you.
WOW, thats really getting out there! Did Motiv rob your bank, they are now going to be compared to criminals? Everything is not always as cut and dried as you like to make out in the business world . Their are variables involved ( I think you used that in a earlier post) so Motiv has some "variables" to work thru. You either take what they give you or you chalk it up and move on, not every company can make a profit and most companies never intend to screw up, and I am sure a lot of them fill really bad that they have to have consumers pay for a service. It happens, now its up to you to do what is best for you. This thing is getting made out to be a lot bigger than it needs to be. SO I guess we will agree to disagree and move on.
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I agree that we will just have to agree to disagree and move on. Fair enough.
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I posted this in the other thread as well, but it seems to fit here as well.
I agree with Wowzers, Motiv should reimburse the bowlers for drilling the replacement balls. This is much different than a warranty claim, IMO. There are great pro shops out there, like Mr. Helton here, who are going to give their customers free drilling. But, then they are out the money. If you sold 50, 100, 200 of these balls, how much time is going to take to drill the replacements? That's a lot of time given away for free. How many PSO's can afford to really do that? The solution, I feel, is a voucher system. Each bowler is given a voucher with the replacement ball. Give that voucher to the PSO to get drilling for free, including grips, slugs, etc.. So all the bowler is out is a little bit of time it takes to get the drilling done. Those vouchers can they be turned into the PSO's distributors for free Motiv equipment in the future, the distributors turn it back into Motiv for free equipment in the future. This way there is no cash coming out of Motiv now, it is exchanged for product which gets more Motiv balls out into the market and the hit can be spread across multiple quarters (hopefully) as the vouchers come in from Motiv's standpoint making the financial hit a little easier to swallow. It is the best of a bad situation for Motiv, and it keeps the PSO's in business and happy and it keeps the bowlers happy as they did not have to spend any additional dollars getting their illegal balls replaced.
I will admit I have not figured out the actual details on the voucher, I feel there should be a cap on the amount it is worth, say at $50 or $60. The PSO's may not get full price for their work, but it is better then having to eat the time for free, especially for those that may have sold a lot of these balls. The real answers would have to be worked through by Motiv and their finance department.
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The whole situation for Motiv and the customers is unfortunate, but these types of things happen with manufactured products (my last car was recalled 5 times in 5 years with no reimbursement for time waiting at the dealer or taking days off to be without the car, we have had to throw away food (both human and pet) due to recalls with no reimbursement...stuff happens.)
I am way more interested in the story behind this...if the mysterious "spin me" story is actually true...is there some sort of clandestine mission in the bowling industry surrounding this, etc. Motiv will survive this. If this had happened during their infancy, it would be a different story.
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I posted this in the other thread as well, but it seems to fit here as well.
I agree with Wowzers, Motiv should reimburse the bowlers for drilling the replacement balls. This is much different than a warranty claim, IMO. There are great pro shops out there, like Mr. Helton here, who are going to give their customers free drilling. But, then they are out the money. If you sold 50, 100, 200 of these balls, how much time is going to take to drill the replacements? That's a lot of time given away for free. How many PSO's can afford to really do that? The solution, I feel, is a voucher system. Each bowler is given a voucher with the replacement ball. Give that voucher to the PSO to get drilling for free, including grips, slugs, etc.. So all the bowler is out is a little bit of time it takes to get the drilling done. Those vouchers can they be turned into the PSO's distributors for free Motiv equipment in the future, the distributors turn it back into Motiv for free equipment in the future. This way there is no cash coming out of Motiv now, it is exchanged for product which gets more Motiv balls out into the market and the hit can be spread across multiple quarters (hopefully) as the vouchers come in from Motiv's standpoint making the financial hit a little easier to swallow. It is the best of a bad situation for Motiv, and it keeps the PSO's in business and happy and it keeps the bowlers happy as they did not have to spend any additional dollars getting their illegal balls replaced.
I will admit I have not figured out the actual details on the voucher, I feel there should be a cap on the amount it is worth, say at $50 or $60. The PSO's may not get full price for their work, but it is better then having to eat the time for free, especially for those that may have sold a lot of these balls. The real answers would have to be worked through by Motiv and their finance department.
Here is a hypothetical...what if Motiv decided to reimburse for drilling with the requirement that the new ball be drilled with the same exact layout as the previous ball? This would, in essence, give Motiv the opportunity to say they replaced the ball one for one. We acknowledge that drilling is an essential component of product use and you received a new ball with the same layout as the old one.
If the customer wants a different layout it as at their expense since the end product wouldn't necessarily be a true one for one replacement.
Pro shops would take a picture of the old ball's layout, send that along with a picture of the new ball's layout. If they match the drilling cost is reimbursed by Motiv. If they are different, Motiv reserves the right to deny drilling reimbursement.
Just throwing it out there...
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Every food recall I saw we were either reimbursed the cost of the food or a voucher was sent for a replacement product.
I understand the no reimbursement of waiting at the dealer, but charging to drill the replacement ball is like you being charged labor at the dealer to make the change for the recall. How would you feel if on top of taking time off to go to the dealer, the dealer then hands you a bill to replace/change something? And says you have to pay before you get your car back? I don't know of a single PSO that sads hey take the ball and pay in a few weeks. You have to pay before you get your ball.
That is what Motiv is doing here. They are leaving the consumer or the PSO (right now at least) holding the bag on this. You are not going to get reimbursed for the time you spend in the shop waiting for the replacement ball to be drilled, but no way should you be charged on the labor to make the issue right.
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I like that idea, the problem is depending on the replacement ball, if the tech specs are completely different (think someone says he/she will take a Venom Shock as the replacement) I would wager to say the drill would be different or need to be different.
Tough to cover EVERY variable, but your thought is good as well.
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Bowler19525,
See, that is what I like about the voucher system, it takes something like that out of the mix. Because the new ball will actually be within USBC guideline, the old layout may not work on it. Depending if they allow replacement with any ball in their current or future line-up or not, the old layout may not even be close to what is needed on the new ball. Restricting it like that is asking for more trouble. The voucher system is a win for the bowler (no outlay of cash, just a little time), a win for the PSO (not giving away free time to fix Motiv's mistake, while still keeping their customer's happy), and a win for Motiv (the voucher, even at a $50/$60 limit for free equipment is costing them less than giving out cash, they don't create a cash flow issue for the company, it helps in the PR game by showing they are going above and beyond to correct their mistake, and it is trackable so they are only paying for replacement ball drilling - something that would be extremely hard to track if giving away cash).
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Every food recall I saw we were either reimbursed the cost of the food or a voucher was sent for a replacement product.
I understand the no reimbursement of waiting at the dealer, but charging to drill the replacement ball is like you being charged labor at the dealer to make the change for the recall. How would you feel if on top of taking time off to go to the dealer, the dealer then hands you a bill to replace/change something? And says you have to pay before you get your car back? I don't know of a single PSO that sads hey take the ball and pay in a few weeks. You have to pay before you get your ball.
That is what Motiv is doing here. They are leaving the consumer or the PSO (right now at least) holding the bag on this. You are not going to get reimbursed for the time you spend in the shop waiting for the replacement ball to be drilled, but no way should you be charged on the labor to make the issue right.
Did they comp you your gas for driving to the store?
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Jorge
You are on to it. I would call Motiv or something because I know I already fired off an email concerning drilling reimbursement last night. I am sure they are deluged right now, but they need to hear the thought at least.
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Nope but they didn't charge me labor to fix a mistake that was theirs, not mine. PSO is charging me labor to drill a new ball that was their (Motiv's) mistake, but advertised on their box the product came in that it met certain specs which the ball did not.
Motiv sold a faulty product before it ever touched a consumer's hands.
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I don't agree that Motiv should also be responsible for the drilling . . and I manage a pro shop. All Motiv should be responsible for is their product. Even staffers when making a warranty claim on a ball just get sent a ball from their company, they don't also get sent grips, slug, and a drilling voucher. How many people could use this to scam the company? How many people have access to a drill press and get drilling virtually for free and will still claim a drilling cost from Motiv anyway to make an extra $60-70 at their expense? This is just an unfortunate occurrence, and if someone has bought the ball at my shop, I'm going to do the same I do for all warranty work and comp the drilling. They patronize my shop, the way I see it that earns them some favor when something like this comes up. I just don't feel like it's fair for Motiv to have to reimburse or comp something they have nothing to do with. That would be like Motiv making pro shops comp customers the replacement balls because that's where they were purchased. Doesn't make any sense.
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I don't agree that Motiv should also be responsible for the drilling . . and I manage a pro shop. All Motiv should be responsible for is their product. Even staffers when making a warranty claim on a ball just get sent a ball from their company, they don't also get sent grips, slug, and a drilling voucher. How many people could use this to scam the company? How many people have access to a drill press and get drilling virtually for free and will still claim a drilling cost from Motiv anyway to make an extra $60-70 at their expense? This is just an unfortunate occurrence, and if someone has bought the ball at my shop, I'm going to do the same I do for all warranty work and comp the drilling. They patronize my shop, the way I see it that earns them some favor when something like this comes up. I just don't feel like it's fair for Motiv to have to reimburse or comp something they have nothing to do with. That would be like Motiv making pro shops comp customers the replacement balls because that's where they were purchased. Doesn't make any sense.
Agreed
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So let me get this straight . . Motiv is replacing EVERY Jackal/Jackal Carnage regardless of manufacture date. The Jackal came out 9/14. Ball has been out a year and a half and Motiv isn't limiting it to purchases within the last 6 months or anything, they're replacing everything right down to the first ball that was poured a YEAR AND A HALF AGO. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have the OG Jackal already in their basement or closet, retired and done with, who will suddenly now drag them back out pining for every single penny they can milk out of the company. What happens when a ball cracks? They replace the ball and you pay to get the new one drilled. Except in this case you still have a ball you can use for anything non sanctioned. It's just banned by USBC, and unless specifically mentioned in rules for unsanctioned or otherwise sanctioned leagues/tournaments, it's still in play.
Only a bowler could find something wrong with the way Motiv is handling the situation. They're doing the right thing, and pro shops should step up. This is the time of the year when things are slowing down anyway, I find myself spending a couple hours a day just cleaning stuff or watching bowling on youtube or catching up on articles. 10-15 minutes to drill a ball when the original was purchased in my shop to begin with is just part of a warranty and good customer service. Maybe pro shops "shouldn't" be responsible, but it's just part of the deal or part of being in the business. Sometimes these things happen, period. I'm not going to cry about it, and I feel like my customers have earned it. Those who bought the ball online because it was "cheaper," well . . this is why you patronize a pro shop. For some reason people are acting like Motiv did this intentionally or was trying to scam or cheat. So the core molds expanded with use a little, the overage amounts to the thickness of a sheet of paper or two, Motiv is a stand up company and anyone looking to stick it to them loses my respect.
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I did read the box. Box says USBC approved because it meets ALL USBC regulations. Ball was found to not meet said regulations as advertised on box. Ball was supposed to meet USBC specs before I put holes in the ball. Ball did not.
Ok, so get Motiv for false or misleading advertisement? I drilled the ball based on assurance from the company the ball was approved for all sanctioned competition. Period. Why would I want a ball in my arsenal that when I go to league/state/nationals I could not use? Thus, if I knew going in the ball would not be USBC certified, I would not have purchased the product.
I think you have a very good argument. I bet you would win if you took them to small claims court. I think the statement in your post is enough for you to win the case right there. Nothing else needs to be said. Is it worth $50 or so, probably not. I would write Motiv a nice letter stating exactly your point of view and see what they do about it. They probably aren't going to give $50 to every one that bought the ball (unless they are made to by a court) , but they might make good on an individual unsatisfied customer that took the time to sit down and write them a letter.
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So let me get this straight . . Motiv is replacing EVERY Jackal/Jackal Carnage regardless of manufacture date. The Jackal came out 9/14. Ball has been out a year and a half and Motiv isn't limiting it to purchases within the last 6 months or anything, they're replacing everything right down to the first ball that was poured a YEAR AND A HALF AGO. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have the OG Jackal already in their basement or closet, retired and done with, who will suddenly now drag them back out pining for every single penny they can milk out of the company. What happens when a ball cracks? They replace the ball and you pay to get the new one drilled. Except in this case you still have a ball you can use for anything non sanctioned. It's just banned by USBC, and unless specifically mentioned in rules for unsanctioned or otherwise sanctioned leagues/tournaments, it's still in play.
Only a bowler could find something wrong with the way Motiv is handling the situation. They're doing the right thing, and pro shops should step up. This is the time of the year when things are slowing down anyway, I find myself spending a couple hours a day just cleaning stuff or watching bowling on youtube or catching up on articles. 10-15 minutes to drill a ball when the original was purchased in my shop to begin with is just part of a warranty and good customer service. Maybe pro shops "shouldn't" be responsible, but it's just part of the deal or part of being in the business. Sometimes these things happen, period. I'm not going to cry about it, and I feel like my customers have earned it. Those who bought the ball online because it was "cheaper," well . . this is why you patronize a pro shop. For some reason people are acting like Motiv did this intentionally or was trying to scam or cheat. So the core molds expanded with use a little, the overage amounts to the thickness of a sheet of paper or two, Motiv is a stand up company and anyone looking to stick it to them loses my respect.
Well put and I agree again.
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Every food recall I saw we were either reimbursed the cost of the food or a voucher was sent for a replacement product.
I understand the no reimbursement of waiting at the dealer, but charging to drill the replacement ball is like you being charged labor at the dealer to make the change for the recall. How would you feel if on top of taking time off to go to the dealer, the dealer then hands you a bill to replace/change something? And says you have to pay before you get your car back? I don't know of a single PSO that sads hey take the ball and pay in a few weeks. You have to pay before you get your ball.
That is what Motiv is doing here. They are leaving the consumer or the PSO (right now at least) holding the bag on this. You are not going to get reimbursed for the time you spend in the shop waiting for the replacement ball to be drilled, but no way should you be charged on the labor to make the issue right.
Our supermarket called us recently with an automated message based on our purchase of a recalled poultry item (they had the info from the bonus card we use there.) The message said we had recently purchased stuffed, frozen chicken breasts that were being recalled due to salmonella contamination. The message said to immediately discard the items. They then thanked us for being customers and the recording ended. No compensation offered.
All car manufacturers are different. There was one recall on my car that required replacing the thermostat. In doing that, some coolant ran out. The dealer replaced the thermostat and housing under the recall, but I was charged for topping off the coolant that came out as a result of replacing the thermostat.
My PSO allows me to pay later on certain things if I want to. For example, say I go in and get grips replaced on a couple of balls and pick up some cleaner. Then I order a new ball at the same time. My PSO will frequently just say "pay for everything when you pick up the new ball next week." I don't like doing that so I pay for the grips and cleaner the same day, then pay for the new ball when I pick it up later.
Every situation is different. Motiv is going to replace the balls. A great deal for people who have more than a year on their original Jackal and/or hundreds of games on their equipment. It would be the same if the ball cracked in the track area due to a bad pour or poorly cured cover stock. A crack in the track makes the ball illegal for use in USBC competition. Motiv would replace the ball, but not reimburse the drilling cost.
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If Motiv knew that certification was going to be revoked, why would they spend millions producing these balls and continue to sell them? How do you get them for false or misleading advertising? They were selling a product that USBC had certified. So what they're being accused of then is intentionally cheating, scamming, misleading or flat out deceiving their customers risking this happening over one THOUSANDTH of a point in differential? This argument has NO validity and lacks common sense. It amounts to an unfortunate manufacturing error/issue, nothing more, nothing less. Step off the soapbox and think for a moment.
I did read the box. Box says USBC approved because it meets ALL USBC regulations. Ball was found to not meet said regulations as advertised on box. Ball was supposed to meet USBC specs before I put holes in the ball. Ball did not.
Ok, so get Motiv for false or misleading advertisement? I drilled the ball based on assurance from the company the ball was approved for all sanctioned competition. Period. Why would I want a ball in my arsenal that when I go to league/state/nationals I could not use? Thus, if I knew going in the ball would not be USBC certified, I would not have purchased the product.
I think you have a very good argument. I bet you would win if you took them to small claims court. I think the statement in your post is enough for you to win the case right there. Nothing else needs to be said. Is it worth $50 or so, probably not. I would write Motiv a nice letter stating exactly your point of view and see what they do about it. They probably aren't going to give $50 to every one that bought the ball (unless they are made to by a court) , but they might make good on an individual unsatisfied customer that took the time to sit down and write them a letter.
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For everyone who thinks Motiv should pay for drilling expenses, what would your response be if you were given a pro-rated value on the ball back instead of a brand new ball to replace your possibly worn out bowling ball? If it's 1 year old you might get $75 towards a ball with drilling expenses covered. Or you could just accept that you get a new ball to replace your used ball which you still get to keep for practice...non-sanctioned events...etc...
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If Motiv knew that certification was going to be revoked, why would they spend millions producing these balls and continue to sell them? How do you get them for false or misleading advertising? They were selling a product that USBC had certified. So what they're being accused of then is intentionally cheating, scamming, misleading or flat out deceiving their customers risking this happening over one THOUSANDTH of a point in differential? This argument has NO validity and lacks common sense. It amounts to an unfortunate manufacturing error/issue, nothing more, nothing less. Step off the soapbox and think for a moment.
I did read the box. Box says USBC approved because it meets ALL USBC regulations. Ball was found to not meet said regulations as advertised on box. Ball was supposed to meet USBC specs before I put holes in the ball. Ball did not.
Ok, so get Motiv for false or misleading advertisement? I drilled the ball based on assurance from the company the ball was approved for all sanctioned competition. Period. Why would I want a ball in my arsenal that when I go to league/state/nationals I could not use? Thus, if I knew going in the ball would not be USBC certified, I would not have purchased the product.
I think you have a very good argument. I bet you would win if you took them to small claims court. I think the statement in your post is enough for you to win the case right there. Nothing else needs to be said. Is it worth $50 or so, probably not. I would write Motiv a nice letter stating exactly your point of view and see what they do about it. They probably aren't going to give $50 to every one that bought the ball (unless they are made to by a court) , but they might make good on an individual unsatisfied customer that took the time to sit down and write them a letter.
Man you are rolling!
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Maybe I missed something, but the announcement I read from Motiv stated they will be announcing what they plan to do to remedy this foul up, maybe as early as next week. Until they tell us what they propose all the posts here are conjecture. Good reading and some very good ideas, but all may be for not, based on Motiv's pending announcement.
I for one can wait a week or so for their announcement. Then I will let my feelings on this mess be known.
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I have a question.Do we get the games back we lost to guys throwing these so called illegal balls.This is a very interesting situation.Or wait the money that Gary Faulkner won on the PBA using it.Just throwing that out there.We have several guys throwing the original jackal and it has been out awhile.Think i'll really confuse my association president tonight.
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Whoever expects Motiv to pay for drilling fees is out of their minds...How about the usbc pays for the drillings since they approved the balls in the first place? Also if Motiv went Chapter 11 (which they wont) we wouldnt even get a replacement ball.
Keep drinking the Bernie juice....
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I have a question.Do we get the games back we lost to guys throwing these so called illegal balls.This is a very interesting situation.Or wait the money that Gary Faulkner won on the PBA using it.Just throwing that out there.We have several guys throwing the original jackal and it has been out awhile.Think i'll really confuse my association president tonight.
It was approved for use through 3/14/2016 - any scores bowled with the ball before then are fine. They were approved for use during that window.
Nothing else matters.
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I did read the box. Box says USBC approved because it meets ALL USBC regulations. Ball was found to not meet said regulations as advertised on box. Ball was supposed to meet USBC specs before I put holes in the ball. Ball did not.
Ok, so get Motiv for false or misleading advertisement? I drilled the ball based on assurance from the company the ball was approved for all sanctioned competition. Period. Why would I want a ball in my arsenal that when I go to league/state/nationals I could not use? Thus, if I knew going in the ball would not be USBC certified, I would not have purchased the product.
Wow... You are a complete CHEAP IDIOT. Tell me where I can send you a check for whatever you paid for drilling and stop whining! For people like you this country is becoming a joke!
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I have a question.Do we get the games back we lost to guys throwing these so called illegal balls.This is a very interesting situation.Or wait the money that Gary Faulkner won on the PBA using it.Just throwing that out there.We have several guys throwing the original jackal and it has been out awhile.Think i'll really confuse my association president tonight.
Per the announcement from the USBC:
"Bowlers who used the Jackal or Jackal Carnage in competition on or before March 15, 2016 with no prior knowledge of their ball being out of specification would not be subject to forfeiture under USBC rules."
Previously bowled games/series in USBC sanctioned competition remain as is.
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Agreed. If you get the games back you lost, wouldn't you have to give back the games you won? Trust me, taking 1000 grit to something is going to make far more of a difference than an extra .001 in differential. Not to mention after drilling and a P3 or P4 hole, a "legal" pre drilling diff may end up very illegal after holes are in it, but you're ok with that, however not ok if one of the .061 pre drilling balls ends up at .059 after . . "Logic . . why don't they teach logic in these schools . ."
Had a guy using an OG Jackal last night in our SCRATCH league, but no one said anything because he struggled to 550 with it. I'm sure if people had to give up some big scores, there's quite a few not so big scores they wouldn't mind going off their record at the same time . . and how on earth do you track that anyway? "Oh hey, USBC needs a list of all the games you bowled with your Jackal and/or Jackal Carnage, the exact games/series, and dates they were bowled so they can be expunged." I don't remember the exact games I bowled LAST NIGHT let alone anything before that, LET ALONE FURTHER what balls I bowled them with. Just going through and removing honor scores would in no way, shape, or form be fair in the least.
I have a question.Do we get the games back we lost to guys throwing these so called illegal balls.This is a very interesting situation.Or wait the money that Gary Faulkner won on the PBA using it.Just throwing that out there.We have several guys throwing the original jackal and it has been out awhile.Think i'll really confuse my association president tonight.
It was approved for use through 3/14/2016 - any scores bowled with the ball before then are fine. They were approved for use during that window.
Nothing else matters.
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Agreed. If you get the games back you lost, wouldn't you have to give back the games you won? Trust me, taking 1000 grit to something is going to make far more of a difference than an extra .001 in differential. Not to mention after drilling and a P3 or P4 hole, a "legal" pre drilling diff may end up very illegal after holes are in it, but you're ok with that, however not ok if one of the .061 pre drilling balls ends up at .059 after . . "Logic . . why don't they teach logic in these schools . ."
Had a guy using an OG Jackal last night in our SCRATCH league, but no one said anything because he struggled to 550 with it. I'm sure if people had to give up some big scores, there's quite a few not so big scores they wouldn't mind going off their record at the same time . . and how on earth do you track that anyway? "Oh hey, USBC needs a list of all the games you bowled with your Jackal and/or Jackal Carnage, the exact games/series, and dates they were bowled so they can be expunged." I don't remember the exact games I bowled LAST NIGHT let alone anything before that, LET ALONE FURTHER what balls I bowled them with. Just going through and removing honor scores would in no way, shape, or form be fair in the least.
I have a question.Do we get the games back we lost to guys throwing these so called illegal balls.This is a very interesting situation.Or wait the money that Gary Faulkner won on the PBA using it.Just throwing that out there.We have several guys throwing the original jackal and it has been out awhile.Think i'll really confuse my association president tonight.
It was approved for use through 3/14/2016 - any scores bowled with the ball before then are fine. They were approved for use during that window.
Nothing else matters.
Again IZTPS, you are on FIRE!
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Per the announcement from the USBC:
"Bowlers who used the Jackal or Jackal Carnage in competition on or before March 15, 2016 with no prior knowledge of their ball being out of specification would not be subject to forfeiture under USBC rules."
Previously bowled games/series in USBC sanctioned competition remain as is.
So it actually was legal to use it last night in league.
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Good catch . .
Per the announcement from the USBC:
"Bowlers who used the Jackal or Jackal Carnage in competition on or before March 15, 2016 with no prior knowledge of their ball being out of specification would not be subject to forfeiture under USBC rules."
Previously bowled games/series in USBC sanctioned competition remain as is.
So it actually was legal to use it last night in league.
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Lol they need to add a like button on the site . .
Agreed. If you get the games back you lost, wouldn't you have to give back the games you won? Trust me, taking 1000 grit to something is going to make far more of a difference than an extra .001 in differential. Not to mention after drilling and a P3 or P4 hole, a "legal" pre drilling diff may end up very illegal after holes are in it, but you're ok with that, however not ok if one of the .061 pre drilling balls ends up at .059 after . . "Logic . . why don't they teach logic in these schools . ."
Had a guy using an OG Jackal last night in our SCRATCH league, but no one said anything because he struggled to 550 with it. I'm sure if people had to give up some big scores, there's quite a few not so big scores they wouldn't mind going off their record at the same time . . and how on earth do you track that anyway? "Oh hey, USBC needs a list of all the games you bowled with your Jackal and/or Jackal Carnage, the exact games/series, and dates they were bowled so they can be expunged." I don't remember the exact games I bowled LAST NIGHT let alone anything before that, LET ALONE FURTHER what balls I bowled them with. Just going through and removing honor scores would in no way, shape, or form be fair in the least.
I have a question.Do we get the games back we lost to guys throwing these so called illegal balls.This is a very interesting situation.Or wait the money that Gary Faulkner won on the PBA using it.Just throwing that out there.We have several guys throwing the original jackal and it has been out awhile.Think i'll really confuse my association president tonight.
It was approved for use through 3/14/2016 - any scores bowled with the ball before then are fine. They were approved for use during that window.
Nothing else matters.
Again IZTPS, you are on FIRE!
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Hey I was only throwing that out there.I can care less what they do.360 grit will do as much as 0.0601.But I am glad to see the USBC at least showing some gonads.
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I don't care if they won't pay drilling fees, shipping and such. But I do want a replacement ball.
But I'm doubting that they'll send anew ball to use here in Scandinavia. I live in Norway. Hoping they will prove me wrong.
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I don't care if they won't pay drilling fees, shipping and such. But I do want a replacement ball.
But I'm doubting that they'll send anew ball to use here in Scandinavia. I live in Norway. Hoping they will prove me wrong.
You're probably not affected by this news unless you come bowl in the US or if anywhere in Europe adheres to the USBC list
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I don't care if they won't pay drilling fees, shipping and such. But I do want a replacement ball.
But I'm doubting that they'll send anew ball to use here in Scandinavia. I live in Norway. Hoping they will prove me wrong.
You're probably not affected by this news unless you come bowl in the US or if anywhere in Europe adheres to the USBC list
I asked Norway Bowling Leage/Union/Federation (pick one that is the correct one) about if we could still use the ball in the league.
They said no. They're not sure what to do with people who were to use the ball in matches yet though, but I'm sure they'll figure out what happens to those who do over in the states soon enough.
I'm guessing that those guys either get kicked out of the match or get a 0 in every frame they used the ball in.
They'll probably go with 0 in the frames.
But yeah, no go for the balls in Norway too.
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If the form Motiv posts next week doesn't include anything outside of the US, I would send an email to their customer service then
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If the form Motiv posts next week doesn't include anything outside of the US, I would send an email to their customer service then
If getting a replacement is too much of a hassle, I won't bother.
My Scandal and Swerve are great balls, so I'll be fine without the Jackal.
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For whatever it is worth--I believe that wowzers is basicly correct in all matters--
including the drilling fees. The company supplied a defective product for the pro shop
to put holes,etc in. They should pay for all drilling costs including any products that
went into the old drilling. I believe that noone is asking for anything free, they have already spent the money involved in the original.
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At worst, offer the bowler a free Motiv polo or tote bag to make up for not covering the drilling.
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Thanks Next
Hey L3nn0n or whatever or name is. How about everytime you go buy a product that is defective you only get some of it back instead of a brand new one, or if services are required after receiving the product (as in this case you cannot use a ball without drilling it) you everytime have to dig into your pocket because of a company either trying to cut corners or whatever, but was still the company's fault. While you are at it keep telling everyone how the Top Gear core is not real as well.
What is wrong with the country today is we as a nation have become folks who allow companies and individuals to get away with stuff because it is easier to look the other way than to stand up for what is right. Status quo is easier than standing up for what is right. I have already read posts on here and other sites that if and when the person or company is outed for turning in Motiv is named, that company is going to be boycotted.
WHY? Because the person or company did the right thing in saying something that was found to be against the rules that EVERYONE is supposed to abide by?
Motiv supplied a defective product that did not conform to the specifications required by the sanctioning body and sold the ball under the idea and premise the ball would be sanctioned forever (read the box) prior to any consumer purchasing the product. Motiv needs to exchange the non-conforming product with a replacement.
I do not want anything for free. I already paid to have a ball drilled in my bag for sanctioned competition...
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Thanks Next
Hey L3nn0n or whatever or name is. How about everytime you go buy a product that is defective you only get some of it back instead of a brand new one, or if services are required after receiving the product (as in this case you cannot use a ball without drilling it) you everytime have to dig into your pocket because of a company either trying to cut corners or whatever, but was still the company's fault. While you are at it keep telling everyone how the Top Gear core is not real as well.
What is wrong with the country today is we as a nation have become folks who allow companies and individuals to get away with stuff because it is easier to look the other way than to stand up for what is right. Status quo is easier than standing up for what is right. I have already read posts on here and other sites that if and when the person or company is outed for turning in Motiv is named, that company is going to be boycotted.
WHY? Because the person or company did the right thing in saying something that was found to be against the rules that EVERYONE is supposed to abide by?
Motiv supplied a defective product that did not conform to the specifications required by the sanctioning body and sold the ball under the idea and premise the ball would be sanctioned forever (read the box) prior to any consumer purchasing the product. Motiv needs to exchange the non-conforming product with a replacement.
I do not want anything for free. I already paid to have a ball drilled in my bag for sanctioned competition...
a ball that you have used in competition already. As of 3/15, we are treating every Jackal/Carnage made as if they all cracked. Motiv is replacing the product that they sold you. Did Motiv sell you inserts and slug? Nope. Did they make you drill the ball? Nope.
Since you mentioned cars and warranties earlier, I'll help you out. You just bought a sports car. The car as is, is under warranty. As soon as you modify it, there goes the warranty on the parts you installed. So if you put an exhaust system on your car (drill the ball), these parts are no longer covered by your factory warranty. The stock parts, are though. So if you blow your motor (ball cracks), it's replaced as long as your after market parts were not the reason as to why a factory part breaks. If your after market exhaust has a leak (worn out inserts, IT bottom broke, Switch Grip bottom breaks), you have to replace those parts, not the dealer.
So essentially, your car is being replaced by the dealer (Motiv giving you a BRAND NEW BALL for your used one). But those aftermarket parts you have installed (inserts, slug, IT, Switch Grip) are not covered by the factory warranty. They never have been. But for some reason, you are failing to comprehend this. So if you total that new sports car we were just talking about, insurance doesn't cover those aftermarket goodies. Just the CAR! So Wowzers, enjoy your new car. Sorry about the loss of your aftermarket parts.
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I bet the car conformed to all specs as stated and advertised. The ball did not.
Also, sorry that many others on here and the other bowling site agree with me (both posted and through PMs). This is not just me.
When you start to comprehend I would have never modified (drilled) a ball that did not conform to the specs the company selling it said it did, then you can start lecturing me about modifying anything.
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I bet the car conformed to all specs as stated and advertised. The ball did not.
Also, sorry that many others on here and the other bowling site agree with me (both posted and through PMs). This is not just me.
When you start to comprehend I would have never modified (drilled) a ball that did not conform to the specs the company selling it said it did, then you can start lecturing me about modifying anything.
Many more are disagreeing with you, 3835. All this drama over less than 50 bucks. They are GIVING YOU A NEW BALL to replace a used ball. ITZP nailed it yesterday. Get of your soap box.
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I am entitled to my opinion, as are others (including you). Don't like it? Oh well, too bad. Just don't read what I or anyone that agrees with me writes..................... I am not forcing you to read it (nor do I have to read your crapola). Block me so you don't have to read what you don't agree with.
Last I checked, this is a free country with freedom of speech. I am using that right now to state how I feel about the situation with Motiv possibly not rebating drill fees for illegal balls.
Don't like it? Go move to China or North Korea.
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I am entitled to my opinion, as are others (including you). Don't like it? Oh well, too bad. Just don't read what I or anyone that agrees with me writes..................... I am not forcing you to read it (nor do I have to read your crapola). Block me so you don't have to read what you don't agree with.
Last I checked, this is a free country with freedom of speech. I am using that right now to state how I feel about the situation with Motiv possibly not rebating drill fees for illegal balls.
Don't like it? Go move to China or North Korea.
and you call me a shill....
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If you want to continue to debate not liking what I post, why don't you take it to PM instead of jacking the thread more.
After the response below, I am done publicly responding to you or your posts.
If I recall, you railed on Radical (specifically Phil) no matter what was said. Phil could have said the sky was blue and you would have rebutted and tried to tear him down (sounds familiar to the attacks you have presented on me because of my thoughts on a drilling fee rebate). So yes, I called you a shill.
Personally, I like Motiv products. They have a long lifespan, hit and roll well, and are as good or better than any other company on the market today. The Venom Shock and Tag have been great for me. It is great they are going to replace the illegal balls. I think Motiv is great (overall) for the bowling industry. Small company making it big, manufactured in the USA, pumping significant amount of money into the PBA and other bowling arenas. The company has done a ton of goodwill. No debating that.
But a mistake is a mistake and the entire mistake must be fixed. The consumer is still hurt until the new ball is either drilled for free or there is a rebate of the drill fee on the original purchase of the illegal ball. I will not change my opinion on this.
This is MY opinion and my opinion will not change, regardless of what you, Motiv, or anyone else may think.
Remember Erin Brokovich? Ever watch the movie or know the story? It took Erin to stand up when nobody else would to PG&E. Yeah that was criminal and this is not, but the process is the same. Someone has to stand up when nobody else will, even when others are trying to get you to not or do not agree with you.
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You humor me. You really do. I have noticed that this post has to be seen your way or everyone else is wrong. Those of us that understand what is going on are trying to explain to you what is going to happen and why. You can like it or not.
As far as Radical, I asked numerous questions that were never answered. And I found it hard to believe that Phil did not know that 500/4000 would yield an ending result much lower than 4k. Someone as diverse as Phil has been, especially with coverstocks, should know that the ending result would be around 2k depending on time and pressure spent with each pad. Then that the coever changes grit as soon as the first ball is thrown. Jayhawk made a video about this in 2012. So now that you're trying to discredit me to build your argument, try again.
The balls will be replaced, the drilling will not. I do not have a need for a ball as strong as the Jackal or Carnage so I am not out anything with this whole debacle. We will drill the balls for free for our loyal customers, charging them $7 for their inserts and slug combined. So they will be out about $10 for a BRAND NEW ball. My customers are more than happy with this and that satisfies me. Good luck on your free drilling. MAil me your ball and I'll treat you the same. But after postage, you'd probably have $40-$50 wrapped in the new ball.
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Funny how everybody assumes what Motiv is going to do.Why not wait till they say.Then go from there.I am sure they will replace the balls.I am willing to bet they will make it right with everyone even if it means paying for drilling or a coupon for a bag,shirt or something..I am sure everyone is going to find out Motiv is a top notch company.I think everyone needs to step back take a deep breath and wait and see.Motiv has came a long way to let this ruin there reputation.
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Bowling...I need to find it but on another website a Pro Shop posted that Motiv is NOT going to pay for drilling.
I will see if I can find it and post it here.
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Funny how everybody assumes what Motiv is going to do.Why not wait till they say.Then go from there.I am sure they will replace the balls.I am willing to bet they will make it right with everyone even if it means paying for drilling or a coupon for a bag,shirt or something..I am sure everyone is going to find out Motiv is a top notch company.I think everyone needs to step back take a deep breath and wait and see.Motiv has came a long way to let this ruin there reputation.
No benefit of the doubt is being given. I don't think many people realize Motiv wasn't given any advanced notice, they found out when everyone else did with the USBC announcement.
Motiv will do what they can, in these days of social media and instant gratification everyone reacts (and overreacts) so fast.
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Bowlingforsoup
I went to the other bowling website, found the item, and when I clicked on it, the message changed. There is now no response as to replacing drilling fees whereas before there was a quick line stating no fees would be refunded.
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Funny how everybody assumes what Motiv is going to do.Why not wait till they say.Then go from there.I am sure they will replace the balls.I am willing to bet they will make it right with everyone even if it means paying for drilling or a coupon for a bag,shirt or something..I am sure everyone is going to find out Motiv is a top notch company.I think everyone needs to step back take a deep breath and wait and see.Motiv has came a long way to let this ruin there reputation.
No benefit of the doubt is being given. I don't think many people realize Motiv wasn't given any advanced notice, they found out when everyone else did with the USBC announcement.
Motiv will do what they can, in these days of social media and instant gratification everyone reacts (and overreacts) so fast.
We don't know that for sure though. Motiv and USBC may have already had some conversations we aren't aware of.
The one thing that doesn't make sense to me is why the penalty is so harsh when just a couple of years ago, USBC allowed Ebonite to sell another run of the original Gamebreaker, which is well out of the USBC specifications.
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Bowlingforsoup
I went to the other bowling website, found the item, and when I clicked on it, the message changed. There is now no response as to replacing drilling fees whereas before there was a quick line stating no fees would be refunded.
Yeah, the article on Motiv's site doesn't have the reference to drilling fees anymore. Either their stance may be changing or they realize having it out there in writing is a bad look. Will be interesting to see what ends up being the case.
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The one thing that doesn't make sense to me is why the penalty is so harsh when just a couple of years ago, USBC allowed Ebonite to sell another run of the original Gamebreaker, which is well out of the USBC specifications.
When the USBC changed the minimum RG spec back then, it made many balls that were previously legal fall outside the new spec. These balls already approved remained legal, but no new balls could be approved. Since this affected business plans, forecasts, etc, the USBC allowed the companies to manufacture and sell these balls for a given time frame, somewhere between 6 months and a year after the spec change if I recall correctly. Ebonite made one last run of the Gamebreaker as it was originally approved in this window, then production had to stop. No special allowance or permission was given to Ebonite. it was well over a couple of years ago, it was back when the specs changed.
The obvious difference is that the balls affected back then were legal under the rules when they were produced, then the rules changed. The current situation, the balls in question are not legal under the rules when they were produced.
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The one thing that doesn't make sense to me is why the penalty is so harsh when just a couple of years ago, USBC allowed Ebonite to sell another run of the original Gamebreaker, which is well out of the USBC specifications.
When the USBC changed the minimum RG spec back then, it made many balls that were previously legal fall outside the new spec. These balls already approved remained legal, but no new balls could be approved. Since this affected business plans, forecasts, etc, the USBC allowed the companies to manufacture and sell these balls for a given time frame, somewhere between 6 months and a year after the spec change if I recall correctly. Ebonite made one last run of the Gamebreaker as it was originally approved in this window, then production had to stop. No special allowance or permission was given to Ebonite. it was well over a couple of years ago, it was back when the specs changed.
That's not how I remember it, but then my memory ain't that great. ;D
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Everyone take a deep breath and exhale slowing while counting to ten........OK GO!
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Milo
I do not know about the Gamebreaker, but I do know for a fact that when the new Diff rules were announced, Visionary did nothing but produce Immortals for a long time because they wanted to stock pile a ball with a diff of almost .080 that they could not produce in X number of months. The ball was already approved, was grandfathered, and the companies were allowed to produce any grandfathered ball until X date. I don't doubt Ebo did the same with the Gamebreaker.
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>> But a mistake is a mistake and the entire mistake must be fixed.
The mistake was the bowling ball, not they way the bowling ball was drilled. Therefore, you just refuted your own argument for Motiv to pay for your drilling fees.
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I think there are several points that need to be addressed by the USBC and made public that might help folks deal with this situation.
First, how much notice was Motiv given before the USBC released their findings/determination publicly.
It makes a difference if you think about it. We are presuming that Motiv found out just like everyone else, when the USBC released their findings. If that is the case, I commend Motiv for doing the best they could in that case. They had to make some kind of a statement. Replacing the balls was a no brainier, but they may not have had time to formulate a plan to deal with the the drilling costs. Easier to say your not covering them, then changing to covering once you find a viable solution, than the reverse. Until they actually put their action plan into effect and it goes live, they have time to adjust as they need and see fit.
My son has a Jackal that will need to be replaced, would have taken it to tournaments he's bowling in this coming weekend. But he does have other balls to make do with.
I'm willing to hold judgement until their plan to deal with this goes live.
I would consider no notice a misstep for the USBC, they should have given Motiv a notice that it was coming. Notice was not going to change what they did, but give Motiv a chance to prepare a response.
If Motiv had several hours to coordinate a response, then it's on Motiv for what was released.
The other thing (that I would like to see) is them release the data that they've accrued on the balls in question. Initial testing results when certified and number of balls tested, as well as the current findings and number of balls tested.
Just to settle the lingering questions of this being a hit job. It does matter to some folks out there.
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Motiv found out at the same time the rest of us did, USBC gave them no warning. USBC in my opinion also should have either given them warning, or let them know early on in the process that they had batches coming out that were out of tolerance. This to me seems like there were some rather dirty and underhanded things going on. Motiv has responded incredibly well given the circumstances.
I think there are several points that need to be addressed by the USBC and made public that might help folks deal with this situation.
First, how much notice was Motiv given before the USBC released their findings/determination publicly.
It makes a difference if you think about it. We are presuming that Motiv found out just like everyone else, when the USBC released their findings. If that is the case, I commend Motiv for doing the best they could in that case. They had to make some kind of a statement. Replacing the balls was a no brainier, but they may not have had time to formulate a plan to deal with the the drilling costs. Easier to say your not covering them, then changing to covering once you find a viable solution, than the reverse. Until they actually put their action plan into effect and it goes live, they have time to adjust as they need and see fit.
My son has a Jackal that will need to be replaced, would have taken it to tournaments he's bowling in this coming weekend. But he does have other balls to make do with.
I'm willing to hold judgement until their plan to deal with this goes live.
I would consider no notice a misstep for the USBC, they should have given Motiv a notice that it was coming. Notice was not going to change what they did, but give Motiv a chance to prepare a response.
If Motiv had several hours to coordinate a response, then it's on Motiv for what was released.
The other thing (that I would like to see) is them release the data that they've accrued on the balls in question. Initial testing results when certified and number of balls tested, as well as the current findings and number of balls tested.
Just to settle the lingering questions of this being a hit job. It does matter to some folks out there.
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AMF...how did I refute my own argument? I have said on NUMEROUS occasions that I would have never bought the ball prior to drilling if it was deemed illegal. If it was deemed illegal in my hands but not yet drilled, I would not have drilled it. But, Motiv sold a ball that was supposed to be legal, we paid to drill it as if it was legal, and now it is not and there is NO FAULT by the customer. The customer did not drill it wrong, shop did not drill it wrong, but we can no longer use the product because of Motiv manufacturing a ball out of spec when they said it was within spec.
So once again, the manufacturing of the ball was the mistake BEFORE it was ever drilled.
>> But a mistake is a mistake and the entire mistake must be fixed.
The mistake was the bowling ball, not they way the bowling ball was drilled. Therefore, you just refuted your own argument for Motiv to pay for your drilling fees.
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WOWZERS, I like you, but here you're wrong. Motiv sells a product, a bowling ball. A bowling ball. Going back to the car analogy. If a part is found to be defective, the part is replaced by the company. The part was made by them and installed by them. Therefore they are responsible for the entirety of it. When parts are replaced, you are REQUIRED to take the car to one of that company's dealerships for replacement. Otherwise, it's on you. Did Motiv drill your ball? Did they make the inserts used in it? Motiv is ONLY responsible for the product they provided, which is the bowling ball, undrilled. You seem to have this very leftist idea where everyone else is responsible for everything, even if they shouldn't be. Motiv sold a ball, and are replacing a ball. What is then done with that ball after the fact is not and shouldn't be their concern. There are plenty of people who have undrilled extras of these balls in their closets, should Motiv both send a replacement and pay the drilling cost for the new balls? Just because they haven't gotten the ball drilled yet doesn't mean they aren't going to. By your logic, all ball companies should pay for drilling, because after all, they're just selling a ball, people are going to need it drilled to use it, duh. So because you chose to drill the ball you purchased instead of stashing it, why do you earn extra compensation over the guys that haven't drilled theirs yet?
So you spent money getting it drilled, did that money go to Motiv? No it didn't. So how are they responsible for the drilling when they had absolutely nothing to do with it? And if we're talking about problems with the country, one of the problems is people trying to bankrupt companies over getting every dime out of them they think they should or think they deserve. Explain to me next how people on welfare earn my tax dollars when I'M the one that worked for those dollars. BOTTOM LINE, Motiv sold a product, let's even get as down and dirty as you want. They sold a defective, illegal part. They are ONLY responsible for the product they sold you, not what you chose to do with it afterwards. Some people don't use grips, some people have access to a drill press and get drilling for free. How do they owe you anything more than they owe someone else? It's your choice to use grips and/or slug, and/or interchangeable thumbs and/or interchangeable fingers, how is Motiv responsible for any or all of that because you CHOSE to have all that done?
Again, how do they avoid getting scammed? What's to keep someone with access to a drill press and inserts that gets their stuff drilled for free from trying to get a drilling fee out of them? Maybe there are even people who don't use grips and a slug that get free drilling that will go add grips and a slug to a now worthless ball just to up what Motiv "owes" them. There are people who leave their balls out in freezing conditions, just for the ball to crack, and then they go after the ball company for a replacement. Not the company's fault, but most replace them anyway because it's good PR. Not something they should have to do, but that's the way this country works. Using inserts and drilling any hole within an inch of the pin also voids the warranty, but they usually replace balls that crack from that too. The way liability works is that the company is liable for the product they sold, and unless that product causes damage to something else, they are only liable for the faulty part. So Motiv sold you a NOW illegal ball, as there are no retroactive penalties for using said ball. They are liable to replace that ball, not anything you had done to it. And again, people bought a ball, got plenty of use out of it, maybe it even won them money, yet Motiv is still replacing it with a BRAND NEW ball. There's not even any depreciation involved here. Why should they have to give you a brand new ball after you have already gotten plenty of use out of the one you had while it was legal? No one lost any money, no one had honor scores revoked, no one had tournament wins vacated . . but Motiv still owes people a brand new ball AND drilling cost to replace a used old ball? Why do they not deserve fair terms themselves?
So if someone has a brand new undrilled Jackal in their closet, fair would be replacing the ball, correct? After all, the customer didn't pay to have it drilled or anything, so no harm no foul. However, if someone has it drilled and has gotten a lot of use out of it, why can't Motiv pro-rate the current value? After all, the ball was completely legal up until yesterday. Those who owned it have already gotten plenty of use and value out of it, why does Motiv owe them a completely new ball to replace something used and worn? They aren't just out a ball, it's costing them twice in most cases. How many people are going to get a new ball for free that they'd been wanting to buy anyway? That's all I've heard so far, "Oh well this works out because I'd been wanting to get this one anyway." Have one guy that's had a Jackal since it came out, now he's going to fill out the claim for a Paranoia because he's gotten his use out of the Jackal and wanted to get a Paranoia anyway, but this guy is STILL bitching about the drilling thing. He's gotten a year and a half of use out of the Jackal and is getting a brand new release FOR FREE and he's crying about the drilling. Meanwhile, some people don't bowl sanctioned leagues or tournaments and are free to keep using these balls and I guarantee they're still going to make claims and KEEP using their Jackal(s).
When something accidental like this comes along and you want to just absolutely stick it to them so they "don't get away with it," that sickens me. The core molds got a little worn, and I do mean a LITTLE worn, this problem pops up, Motiv replacing all balls for free, yet someone is still finding a way to cry and complain about it. Meanwhile other people are purposely NOT filing a claim to show support for the company. I just can't even . . SMH, #ridiculous and so on and so forth. Done with this topic.
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Bingo.
So once again, the manufacturing of the ball was the mistake BEFORE it was ever drilled.
>> But a mistake is a mistake and the entire mistake must be fixed.
The mistake was the bowling ball, not they way the bowling ball was drilled. Therefore, you just refuted your own argument for Motiv to pay for your drilling fees.
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I remember when I had an accident and my bowling balls were in the trunk of my car and were destroyed (one cracked in half, the others ehh). But my insurance company replaced them all. I took the balls to the office (this was 1998) I handed him the bowling balls, he handed me a check for everything, and I watched him take the balls out to the dumpster out back so nobody could use the balls again. Maybe Motiv should ask for the balls back that they replace so nobody can use them further?
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I remember when I had an accident and my bowling balls were in the trunk of my car and were destroyed (one cracked in half, the others ehh). But my insurance company replaced them all. I took the balls to the office (this was 1998) I handed him the bowling balls, he handed me a check for everything, and I watched him take the balls out to the dumpster out back so nobody could use the balls again. Maybe Motiv should ask for the balls back that they replace so nobody can use them further?
If you average 10-15 bucks per person for shipping, that can be pretty lucrative. Motiv will let the bowlers keep the balls, no doubt.
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That's what they usually do on cracked or warranty stuff. Get serial number and all information, then have a pro shop drill out serial number and a couple holes in the logo, send pictures to verify ball has been made illegal. However, Motiv isn't doing that in this case, you're free to keep the balls and use them in practice or non sanctioned competition.
Insurance isn't the same parallel, you're paying a monthly fee for a safety net. It's not a free bonus you get for purchasing a car. You pay for the coverage you want. However, if you want to go that direction, if you have a car from 2008 with 100k miles on it that's not worth half of what it was new and you total it, your insurance company doesn't pay for a brand new car and let you keep the old one . . and in this case, the ball will still function like it did when it was legal . .
I remember when I had an accident and my bowling balls were in the trunk of my car and were destroyed (one cracked in half, the others ehh). But my insurance company replaced them all. I took the balls to the office (this was 1998) I handed him the bowling balls, he handed me a check for everything, and I watched him take the balls out to the dumpster out back so nobody could use the balls again. Maybe Motiv should ask for the balls back that they replace so nobody can use them further?
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Yeah, shipping balls back never happens unless it's a unique defect or damage that they want to investigate, and then they'll pay for it. Shipping back in this case or regular warranty cases won't happen.
I remember when I had an accident and my bowling balls were in the trunk of my car and were destroyed (one cracked in half, the others ehh). But my insurance company replaced them all. I took the balls to the office (this was 1998) I handed him the bowling balls, he handed me a check for everything, and I watched him take the balls out to the dumpster out back so nobody could use the balls again. Maybe Motiv should ask for the balls back that they replace so nobody can use them further?
If you average 10-15 bucks per person for shipping, that can be pretty lucrative. Motiv will let the bowlers keep the balls, no doubt.
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WOWZERS, I like you, but here you're wrong. Motiv sells a product, a bowling ball. A bowling ball. Going back to the car analogy. If a part is found to be defective, the part is replaced by the company. The part was made by them and installed by them. Therefore they are responsible for the entirety of it. When parts are replaced, you are REQUIRED to take the car to one of that company's dealerships for replacement. Otherwise, it's on you. Did Motiv drill your ball? Did they make the inserts used in it? Motiv is ONLY responsible for the product they provided, which is the bowling ball, undrilled. You seem to have this very leftist idea where everyone else is responsible for everything, even if they shouldn't be. Motiv sold a ball, and are replacing a ball. What is then done with that ball after the fact is not and shouldn't be their concern. There are plenty of people who have undrilled extras of these balls in their closets, should Motiv both send a replacement and pay the drilling cost for the new balls? Just because they haven't gotten the ball drilled yet doesn't mean they aren't going to. By your logic, all ball companies should pay for drilling, because after all, they're just selling a ball, people are going to need it drilled to use it, duh. So because you chose to drill the ball you purchased instead of stashing it, why do you earn extra compensation over the guys that haven't drilled theirs yet?
So you spent money getting it drilled, did that money go to Motiv? No it didn't. So how are they responsible for the drilling when they had absolutely nothing to do with it? And if we're talking about problems with the country, one of the problems is people trying to bankrupt companies over getting every dime out of them they think they should or think they deserve. Explain to me next how people on welfare earn my tax dollars when I'M the one that worked for those dollars. BOTTOM LINE, Motiv sold a product, let's even get as down and dirty as you want. They sold a defective, illegal part. They are ONLY responsible for the product they sold you, not what you chose to do with it afterwards. Some people don't use grips, some people have access to a drill press and get drilling for free. How do they owe you anything more than they owe someone else? It's your choice to use grips and/or slug, and/or interchangeable thumbs and/or interchangeable fingers, how is Motiv responsible for any or all of that because you CHOSE to have all that done?
Again, how do they avoid getting scammed? What's to keep someone with access to a drill press and inserts that gets their stuff drilled for free from trying to get a drilling fee out of them? Maybe there are even people who don't use grips and a slug that get free drilling that will go add grips and a slug to a now worthless ball just to up what Motiv "owes" them. There are people who leave their balls out in freezing conditions, just for the ball to crack, and then they go after the ball company for a replacement. Not the company's fault, but most replace them anyway because it's good PR. Not something they should have to do, but that's the way this country works. Using inserts and drilling any hole within an inch of the pin also voids the warranty, but they usually replace balls that crack from that too. The way liability works is that the company is liable for the product they sold, and unless that product causes damage to something else, they are only liable for the faulty part. So Motiv sold you a NOW illegal ball, as there are no retroactive penalties for using said ball. They are liable to replace that ball, not anything you had done to it. And again, people bought a ball, got plenty of use out of it, maybe it even won them money, yet Motiv is still replacing it with a BRAND NEW ball. There's not even any depreciation involved here. Why should they have to give you a brand new ball after you have already gotten plenty of use out of the one you had while it was legal? No one lost any money, no one had honor scores revoked, no one had tournament wins vacated . . but Motiv still owes people a brand new ball AND drilling cost to replace a used old ball? Why do they not deserve fair terms themselves?
So if someone has a brand new undrilled Jackal in their closet, fair would be replacing the ball, correct? After all, the customer didn't pay to have it drilled or anything, so no harm no foul. However, if someone has it drilled and has gotten a lot of use out of it, why can't Motiv pro-rate the current value? After all, the ball was completely legal up until yesterday. Those who owned it have already gotten plenty of use and value out of it, why does Motiv owe them a completely new ball to replace something used and worn? They aren't just out a ball, it's costing them twice in most cases. How many people are going to get a new ball for free that they'd been wanting to buy anyway? That's all I've heard so far, "Oh well this works out because I'd been wanting to get this one anyway." Have one guy that's had a Jackal since it came out, now he's going to fill out the claim for a Paranoia because he's gotten his use out of the Jackal and wanted to get a Paranoia anyway, but this guy is STILL bitching about the drilling thing. He's gotten a year and a half of use out of the Jackal and is getting a brand new release FOR FREE and he's crying about the drilling. Meanwhile, some people don't bowl sanctioned leagues or tournaments and are free to keep using these balls and I guarantee they're still going to make claims and KEEP using their Jackal(s).
When something accidental like this comes along and you want to just absolutely stick it to them so they "don't get away with it," that sickens me. The core molds got a little worn, and I do mean a LITTLE worn, this problem pops up, Motiv replacing all balls for free, yet someone is still finding a way to cry and complain about it. Meanwhile other people are purposely NOT filing a claim to show support for the company. I just can't even . . SMH, #ridiculous and so on and so forth. Done with this topic.
Again--ON FIRE!!
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Asking for drilling fees is unacceptable. What percentage of the people getting replacements have access to or get reduced drilling from their "friends" in the pro shop. How many of these people will scam Motiv to get free money? How many paid $50 and will claim they paid $75? Take the replacemnt ball and be happy with it. If you have a decent PSO, they should be understanding as this is not a cracked ball situation, it's a unheard of circumstance. If PSO,s are thinking that this is a good opportunity to put $$$ in their pocket, then maybe they should not stock and promote Motiv products as if I were in Motivs situation, I would look at this PSO as insulting the company.
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Asking for drilling fees is unacceptable. What percentage of the people getting replacements have access to or get reduced drilling from their "friends" in the pro shop. How many of these people will scam Motiv to get free money? How many paid $50 and will claim they paid $75? Take the replacemnt ball and be happy with it. If you have a decent PSO, they should be understanding as this is not a cracked ball situation, it's a unheard of circumstance. If PSO,s are thinking that this is a good opportunity to put $$$ in their pocket, then maybe they should not stock and promote Motiv products as if I were in Motivs situation, I would look at this PSO as insulting the company.
+1
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From the Daily News
http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn02/bowlings-governing-body-declares-2-motiv-balls-illegal-20160317 (http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn02/bowlings-governing-body-declares-2-motiv-balls-illegal-20160317)
"The president of the Motiv bowling ball company said his firm will reimburse customers in light of a United States Bowling Congress decision to declare two of Motiv’s high-performance balls illegal due to non-compliance with current specification requirements.
“While we’re really disappointed in the action taken (by the USBC), we will warranty the balls,†said Scott Wilbur, speaking by telephone from the firm’s office in Michigan. “We will not be able to reimburse drilling fees, but we will replace the bowling ball with a current model or a future release of the Jackal.â€[/url]"
"“We will comply and will discontinue them,†said Wilbur, adding that the ruling will cost Motiv around $1 million."
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From the Daily News
http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn02/bowlings-governing-body-declares-2-motiv-balls-illegal-20160317 (http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn02/bowlings-governing-body-declares-2-motiv-balls-illegal-20160317)
"The president of the Motiv bowling ball company said his firm will reimburse customers in light of a United States Bowling Congress decision to declare two of Motiv’s high-performance balls illegal due to non-compliance with current specification requirements.
“While we’re really disappointed in the action taken (by the USBC), we will warranty the balls,†said Scott Wilbur, speaking by telephone from the firm’s office in Michigan. “We will not be able to reimburse drilling fees, but we will replace the bowling ball with a current model or a future release of the Jackal.â€[/url]"
"“We will comply and will discontinue them,†said Wilbur, adding that the ruling will cost Motiv around $1 million."
my sources have been correct so far 8)
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From the Daily News
http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn02/bowlings-governing-body-declares-2-motiv-balls-illegal-20160317 (http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn02/bowlings-governing-body-declares-2-motiv-balls-illegal-20160317)
"The president of the Motiv bowling ball company said his firm will reimburse customers in light of a United States Bowling Congress decision to declare two of Motiv’s high-performance balls illegal due to non-compliance with current specification requirements.
“While we’re really disappointed in the action taken (by the USBC), we will warranty the balls,†said Scott Wilbur, speaking by telephone from the firm’s office in Michigan. “We will not be able to reimburse drilling fees, but we will replace the bowling ball with a current model or a future release of the Jackal.â€[/url]"
"“We will comply and will discontinue them,†said Wilbur, adding that the ruling will cost Motiv around $1 million."
Those comments (or something extremely similar) were initially in the news article on Motiv's site too but have since been removed. I'm not sure when that happened though, it might have been fairly quickly on Tuesday.
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From the Daily News
http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn02/bowlings-governing-body-declares-2-motiv-balls-illegal-20160317 (http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn02/bowlings-governing-body-declares-2-motiv-balls-illegal-20160317)
"The president of the Motiv bowling ball company said his firm will reimburse customers in light of a United States Bowling Congress decision to declare two of Motiv’s high-performance balls illegal due to non-compliance with current specification requirements.
“While we’re really disappointed in the action taken (by the USBC), we will warranty the balls,†said Scott Wilbur, speaking by telephone from the firm’s office in Michigan. “We will not be able to reimburse drilling fees, but we will replace the bowling ball with a current model or a future release of the Jackal.â€[/url]"
"“We will comply and will discontinue them,†said Wilbur, adding that the ruling will cost Motiv around $1 million."
my sources have been correct so far 8)
I'm hearing that this will be a 7 digit loss. And the first number, isn't a one. :o
Well, you're in the ballpark. ::)
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From the Daily News
http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn02/bowlings-governing-body-declares-2-motiv-balls-illegal-20160317 (http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn02/bowlings-governing-body-declares-2-motiv-balls-illegal-20160317)
"The president of the Motiv bowling ball company said his firm will reimburse customers in light of a United States Bowling Congress decision to declare two of Motiv’s high-performance balls illegal due to non-compliance with current specification requirements.
“While we’re really disappointed in the action taken (by the USBC), we will warranty the balls,†said Scott Wilbur, speaking by telephone from the firm’s office in Michigan. “We will not be able to reimburse drilling fees, but we will replace the bowling ball with a current model or a future release of the Jackal.â€[/url]"
"“We will comply and will discontinue them,†said Wilbur, adding that the ruling will cost Motiv around $1 million."
my sources have been correct so far 8)
I'm hearing that this will be a 7 digit loss. And the first number, isn't a one. :o
Well, you're in the ballpark. ::)
That's probably a paper million too. You know based on MSRP prices etc.
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I wonder how that phone call went down between Scott and the USBC.....oh to be a fly on the wall.
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From the Daily News
http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn02/bowlings-governing-body-declares-2-motiv-balls-illegal-20160317 (http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn02/bowlings-governing-body-declares-2-motiv-balls-illegal-20160317)
"The president of the Motiv bowling ball company said his firm will reimburse customers in light of a United States Bowling Congress decision to declare two of Motiv’s high-performance balls illegal due to non-compliance with current specification requirements.
“While we’re really disappointed in the action taken (by the USBC), we will warranty the balls,†said Scott Wilbur, speaking by telephone from the firm’s office in Michigan. “We will not be able to reimburse drilling fees, but we will replace the bowling ball with a current model or a future release of the Jackal.â€[/url]"
"“We will comply and will discontinue them,†said Wilbur, adding that the ruling will cost Motiv around $1 million."
my sources have been correct so far 8)
I'm hearing that this will be a 7 digit loss. And the first number, isn't a one. :o
Well, you're in the ballpark. ::)
I guess you missed the ball only replaced and no drilling comment too. Currently it is estimated for 1 million. I've been told that they are preparing for 2. All my info was from 4 pm on Tuesday.
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Nice one TKK.
I don't need a handout. But go ahead and resort to personal attacks rather than the subject at hand. Motiv advertised a ball that met USBC specs, and eventually the ball was found to not meet said specs. Ball didn't come with holes in it, I put them there after I had the guarantee or whatever you call the USBC stamp on the box and the ball says a customer is getting for the ball to meet USBC specs.
I only want Motiv to replace drilling. Period. Not a penny more, not pay an extra whatever, but I cannot use the replacement ball without it getting drilled. There would be no need for a replacement ball if Motiv would have produced the ball as expected and tested by the USBC.
Consumer had no hand in this and the issue occurred prior to any consumer interaction.
I agree! Let's say I have $0 to put into my equipment right now. I have a Jackal that can't be used. For this to be made right, I need a ball that I can put in my bag to replace the Jackal. I can't do this unless it is drilled. Why do I pay $50 to fix this?
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Todvan
Some of us see the argument from our side (Motiv should pay for the drill of the new ball), others see it a different way. Its ok, not everybody will ever agree on one thing at the same time.
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When I bought my Motiv GT1, it wasn't long and I got notice that they were having some separation issues with the cover and the lettering. I called them, gave them the serial number and they said mine didn't fall into the batch in question. I told them I had some minor separation and sent pictures to them. They immediately let me know that I would be receiving a new ball and that I could keep mine and use it until it got worse. It never got worse and I still use it today. But, for the life of me I never once gave the thought that they should have covered my drilling of the new ball!!
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When I bought my Motiv GT1, it wasn't long and I got notice that they were having some separation issues with the cover and the lettering. I called them, gave them the serial number and they said mine didn't fall into the batch in question. I told them I had some minor separation and sent pictures to them. They immediately let me know that I would be receiving a new ball and that I could keep mine and use it until it got worse. It never got worse and I still use it today. But, for the life of me I never once gave the thought that they should have covered my drilling of the new ball!!
you're in the majority. Don't worry.
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When I bought my Motiv GT1, it wasn't long and I got notice that they were having some separation issues with the cover and the lettering. I called them, gave them the serial number and they said mine didn't fall into the batch in question. I told them I had some minor separation and sent pictures to them. They immediately let me know that I would be receiving a new ball and that I could keep mine and use it until it got worse. It never got worse and I still use it today. But, for the life of me I never once gave the thought that they should have covered my drilling of the new ball!!
I had the same graphics separation experience with my Primal Rage. Motiv made good and sent me a new ball. Of course, I had to eat the drilling.
It's not just a Motiv thing. I had a few Columbia balls crack over the past few years. While they readily replaced the defective balls, I had to pay out for the drilling. My pro shop guy offered to drill for free in all cases, but his time is valuable so for piece of mind I paid anyway.
No manufactures pay for drilling of defective balls. The Jackal situation is no different. I agree with Wowzers that the customer should be made completely whole, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way, and wishing it was different doesn't change things. It's part of the risk in the purchase.
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Steven
Just to make my position clear, and I think I explained this before, if the ball would have cracked after drilling, or any other defect had surfaced after some use, it is what it is and to get a new ball is just fine and I would eat the drilling (have done it before and will probably in the future.
All I am trying to say here is I would have never put holes in either Jackal if the ball was noted as illegal or going to be illegal because of a manufacturing issue where the ball did not pass USBC regulations, which is vastly different than a ball that has been drilled and is now cracking. That cracked ball is technically still legal for any USBC sanctioned competition provided the crack is not in your track and the ball is not falling apart. With the Jackals, no defect and the ball can no longer be used.
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To clarify what I'm saying, I believe both situations are manufacturing issues. And in both cases, the balls are essentially unusable, but for different reasons.
Of course this assumes Motiv had good intentions and did not deliberately produce balls with illegal differentials. Just as I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they do not intentionally produce balls susceptible to cracking. Maybe I'm naive, but that's my brief.
I basically agree with your position. However, I don't think any manufacturer wants to set a precedent for not only replacing a ball, but paying for drilling. I don't see it happening, even if it's ethically the right thing to do.
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I bet the car conformed to all specs as stated and advertised. The ball did not.
Also, sorry that many others on here and the other bowling site agree with me (both posted and through PMs). This is not just me.
When you start to comprehend I would have never modified (drilled) a ball that did not conform to the specs the company selling it said it did, then you can start lecturing me about modifying anything.
Many more are disagreeing with you, 3835. All this drama over less than 50 bucks. They are GIVING YOU A NEW BALL to replace a used ball. ITZP nailed it yesterday. Get of your soap box.
Motiv is offering him a new ball and I offered him to pay for his drilling so he can save $50 bucks! Probaly that money will make your life less miserable! You are a cheap cry baby. Stop whinnying already because Motiv is not paying for your stupid drilling! GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!
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Asking for drilling fees is unacceptable. What percentage of the people getting replacements have access to or get reduced drilling from their "friends" in the pro shop. How many of these people will scam Motiv to get free money? How many paid $50 and will claim they paid $75? Take the replacemnt ball and be happy with it. If you have a decent PSO, they should be understanding as this is not a cracked ball situation, it's a unheard of circumstance. If PSO,s are thinking that this is a good opportunity to put $$$ in their pocket, then maybe they should not stock and promote Motiv products as if I were in Motivs situation, I would look at this PSO as insulting the company.
+1
You always have that guy who wants to take advantage of the misfortune of others... Right WOWZWHATEVERISYOURNAME?? Fighting for $50 bucks... You must be living on a government pension right? Again, send me your address and I'll write you a check.
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L3nn0n
Many have posted publicly and to me in a PM that they agree and have thanked me for fighting for the issue. So...if this upsets you so much, and I have no idea why because Motiv providing drilling has NOTHING to do with you....block me, don't read my posts, or whatever makes it so that your blood pressure stays under 200. I am entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is not going to change.
So to you, GET OVER IT yourself. I am allowed to state my opinion all day long. Don't like it? TOO BAD. Want everyone to agree with you? Go become the dictator of China or North Korea.
You are entitled to your opinion and you obviously do not agree with me. That's fine, that is what made the USA so great....when we had people willing to stand up on 2 sides of an issue and debate it out. I am not going to stop you from you stating your opinion with facts, not slams and for me to shut up or go away because you think whatever is the reason I am trying to get Motiv to pay a drill fee.
And by the way, as for the misfortune of others....the only misfortune here is Motiv sold a ball that was advertised as legal for any and all future USBC sanctioned competition. We know how that has turned out.
In a court of law, with civil lawsuits, isn't there a few parts to the puzzle? Can't you be provided relief in the form of actual losses AND losses for hardship/pain/suffering? Companies found guilty of negligence have traditionally had to pay more than just what someone has lost as a result of the company's negligence. The extra money is a way to tell the company, don't do it again.
Steven
In a court of law, Motiv might find out, after paying attorney fees, that they (Motiv) have to pay for new balls to be drilled for customers. If you were Motiv, would you want to risk paying attorney fees and then still find out the company is on the hook for paying for drilling? It is a risk reward type scenario.
The threat of lawsuits has been hung over Motiv. What exactly is anyone's guess...
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It's as shame that the greed of the average American person may very well put the 2nd best bowling ball company in the world out of business. Over what? $50 bucks? Balls that are illegal by an average of .0016 and .0004. Let that sink in for a minute. I'm not defending the product. I'm not defending anyone involved with this. But, .0016 and .0004.... :o
Cover is king. Differentials matter about as much as side weight, per USBC. And ALL of the EXPERTS here claim side weight really doesn't matter. Once again, I'm not saying that Motiv should get away with anything and that they should not be punished. But we are talking a 7 digit loss over something that TRULY does not matter in the grand scheme of things. Here is a quote from Mo, "In my experience, the layout created by the drilling technique is about 40 percent of ball reaction while the balance hole location and size are 60 percent of the reaction. I have also observed that a ball’s designed reaction may be reduced by as much as 29 percent or increased by as much as 55 percent by the drilling technique used on that ball." He also stated, "The specifications for an undrilled RipR are: diff ratio of .25, intermediate diff of .013 inches,and total diff of .042 inches.
Notice that by changing the chosen drilling technique, we can end up with drilled balls with diff ratios from .21 to .60, intermediate diffs from .008 inches to .037 inches, and total diffs from .037 inches to .061 inches."
My point? If we can manipulate these core number by the mounts listed above, how much damage did Motiv really cause by being .0016 over specification? Fine them! Put them on probation! Cease production of the balls and core in question.But do not take the balls out of the bowlers hands. They aren't gaining the advantage many of you think, if at all.
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That why y'all folks need to stay close with pro shops!!! I know if any of my balls is a warranty claim or replacement w.e, my driller will take care of it.
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tkkshop,
+1000
Also, in regard to those wanting the drilling to be included by Motiv, I say this......Motiv sold me a ball. Motiv did not include a voucher to pay to get it drilled. When I received the ball, it was my decision to punch holes in it or hoard it in my closet, put it on display, use it for a lawn ornament, etc. The drilling becomes an after market decision by the bowler with the service usually performed by a pro shop. That is why I think most pro shops stand behind their drilling whether it's a cracked ball situation or in this case a ball later deemed illegal.
It appears that Motiv is going to replace the Jackals under the warranty and in doing so they are giving the buyer EXACTLY
what they purchased......a ball without holes. You want holes, the buyer pays for those holes or don't put holes in the ball. It's the buyer's decision. Always has been and always will be.
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It's as shame that the greed of the average American person may very well put the 2nd best bowling ball company in the world out of business. Over what? $50 bucks? Balls that are illegal by an average of .0016 and .0004. Let that sink in for a minute. I'm not defending the product. I'm not defending anyone involved with this. But, .0016 and .0004.... :o
Cover is king. Differentials matter about as much as side weight, per USBC. And ALL of the EXPERTS here claim side weight really doesn't matter. Once again, I'm not saying that Motiv should get away with anything and that they should not be punished. But we are talking a 7 digit loss over something that TRULY does not matter in the grand scheme of things. Here is a quote from Mo, "In my experience, the layout created by the drilling technique is about 40 percent of ball reaction while the balance hole location and size are 60 percent of the reaction. I have also observed that a ball’s designed reaction may be reduced by as much as 29 percent or increased by as much as 55 percent by the drilling technique used on that ball." He also stated, "The specifications for an undrilled RipR are: diff ratio of .25, intermediate diff of .013 inches,and total diff of .042 inches.
Notice that by changing the chosen drilling technique, we can end up with drilled balls with diff ratios from .21 to .60, intermediate diffs from .008 inches to .037 inches, and total diffs from .037 inches to .061 inches."
My point? If we can manipulate these core number by the mounts listed above, how much damage did Motiv really cause by being .0016 over specification? Fine them! Put them on probation! Cease production of the balls and core in question.But do not take the balls out of the bowlers hands. They aren't gaining the advantage many of you think, if at all.
Great points, and this somewhat has been my problem with this from the beginning. People want to cripple a small business owners and their employees over this. Everyone of them is crying poor me while saying this is not right blah blah, yet have no trouble taking the hand out at any cost to the company. Motiv made a mistake it happens and they damn sure don't deserve to be sued over this. that's what wrong now everybody gets butt hurt and wants to sue for any reason at any cost.
Their is not enough money in bowling to make profit in bowling balls for everyone, some people that are in business just like making ends meat per say. You have a lot of ball companies fighting for business of a shrinking clientele. To me this is to trivial to be going on and on about.
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Only time will tell if Motiv will survive this . I believe that if you bought your ball from a good pro shop mkstvof them won't charger you to drill the replacement. They should charge for grips . Now if you bought your ball on line you should be charger to drill the replacement .
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It's as shame that the greed of the average American person may very well put the 2nd best bowling ball company in the world out of business. Over what? $50 bucks? Balls that are illegal by an average of .0016 and .0004. Let that sink in for a minute. I'm not defending the product. I'm not defending anyone involved with this. But, .0016 and .0004.... :o
Cover is king. Differentials matter about as much as side weight, per USBC. And ALL of the EXPERTS here claim side weight really doesn't matter. Once again, I'm not saying that Motiv should get away with anything and that they should not be punished. But we are talking a 7 digit loss over something that TRULY does not matter in the grand scheme of things. Here is a quote from Mo, "In my experience, the layout created by the drilling technique is about 40 percent of ball reaction while the balance hole location and size are 60 percent of the reaction. I have also observed that a ball’s designed reaction may be reduced by as much as 29 percent or increased by as much as 55 percent by the drilling technique used on that ball." He also stated, "The specifications for an undrilled RipR are: diff ratio of .25, intermediate diff of .013 inches,and total diff of .042 inches.
Notice that by changing the chosen drilling technique, we can end up with drilled balls with diff ratios from .21 to .60, intermediate diffs from .008 inches to .037 inches, and total diffs from .037 inches to .061 inches."
My point? If we can manipulate these core number by the mounts listed above, how much damage did Motiv really cause by being .0016 over specification? Fine them! Put them on probation! Cease production of the balls and core in question.But do not take the balls out of the bowlers hands. They aren't gaining the advantage many of you think, if at all.
This is a point I've also been trying to articulate in certain facebook posts. There is a youtube video that walks through the ball qualification process at USBC. In that video, the marks made for high and low RG are done by hand. The placement of the ball on the Differential measurement machine is done by hand and lined up by hand/eyesight. If that is in fact the way these measurements are made, then it is virtually impossible to say that it can validated to be accurate to the 10,000ths of an inch. The upper limit is 0.60, not 0.0600. The measurement for the Carnage was 0.060(4). If I'm at Motiv (or more importantly, the law firm that would represent them), I believe an excellent case could be made that this is a legal ball. Original Jackal at 0.0616? Yeah, illegal.
I'd make USBC produce analysis and validation reports that demonstrate that the measurement process can be deemed accurate to the 10,000ths of an inch. If they can, then why isn't the published limit at 4 decimal places?
Disclaimer to my rant: Of course we are talking averages. I recognize that individual measured ball's value may vary and the determination, according to the spec manual, is a percentage of balls that measure out of spec (I believe it is 0.6%), but they are also supposed to check from one batch , and then confirm from a second batch (I'm assuming that refers to manufacturing batches).
Anyhoo, I would have no expectation for Motiv to cover drilling cost for my son's replacement ball. It appears that many pro-shops are stepping up and offering free drilling for the replacements if the original was purchased and drilled from their shop. This should be lauded and encouraged by all of us.
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It's as shame that the greed of the average American person may very well put the 2nd best bowling ball company in the world out of business. Over what? $50 bucks? Balls that are illegal by an average of .0016 and .0004. Let that sink in for a minute. I'm not defending the product. I'm not defending anyone involved with this. But, .0016 and .0004.... :o
Cover is king. Differentials matter about as much as side weight, per USBC. And ALL of the EXPERTS here claim side weight really doesn't matter. Once again, I'm not saying that Motiv should get away with anything and that they should not be punished. But we are talking a 7 digit loss over something that TRULY does not matter in the grand scheme of things. Here is a quote from Mo, "In my experience, the layout created by the drilling technique is about 40 percent of ball reaction while the balance hole location and size are 60 percent of the reaction. I have also observed that a ball’s designed reaction may be reduced by as much as 29 percent or increased by as much as 55 percent by the drilling technique used on that ball." He also stated, "The specifications for an undrilled RipR are: diff ratio of .25, intermediate diff of .013 inches,and total diff of .042 inches.
Notice that by changing the chosen drilling technique, we can end up with drilled balls with diff ratios from .21 to .60, intermediate diffs from .008 inches to .037 inches, and total diffs from .037 inches to .061 inches."
My point? If we can manipulate these core number by the mounts listed above, how much damage did Motiv really cause by being .0016 over specification? Fine them! Put them on probation! Cease production of the balls and core in question.But do not take the balls out of the bowlers hands. They aren't gaining the advantage many of you think, if at all.
Couldn't agree more! But don't start talking all rational...the USBC fanatics will set you on fire lol.
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So let me get this straight . . Motiv is replacing EVERY Jackal/Jackal Carnage regardless of manufacture date. The Jackal came out 9/14. Ball has been out a year and a half and Motiv isn't limiting it to purchases within the last 6 months or anything, they're replacing everything right down to the first ball that was poured a YEAR AND A HALF AGO. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have the OG Jackal already in their basement or closet, retired and done with, who will suddenly now drag them back out pining for every single penny they can milk out of the company. What happens when a ball cracks? They replace the ball and you pay to get the new one drilled. Except in this case you still have a ball you can use for anything non sanctioned. It's just banned by USBC, and unless specifically mentioned in rules for unsanctioned or otherwise sanctioned leagues/tournaments, it's still in play.
Only a bowler could find something wrong with the way Motiv is handling the situation. They're doing the right thing, and pro shops should step up. This is the time of the year when things are slowing down anyway, I find myself spending a couple hours a day just cleaning stuff or watching bowling on youtube or catching up on articles. 10-15 minutes to drill a ball when the original was purchased in my shop to begin with is just part of a warranty and good customer service. Maybe pro shops "shouldn't" be responsible, but it's just part of the deal or part of being in the business. Sometimes these things happen, period. I'm not going to cry about it, and I feel like my customers have earned it. Those who bought the ball online because it was "cheaper," well . . this is why you patronize a pro shop. For some reason people are acting like Motiv did this intentionally or was trying to scam or cheat. So the core molds expanded with use a little, the overage amounts to the thickness of a sheet of paper or two, Motiv is a stand up company and anyone looking to stick it to them loses my respect.
You got that right. Bowlers are just about the most miserable people on the planet. Only people who participate in a game/sport while constantly whining about the game/sport. Two people see some kind of class action lawsuit out of this and demand to have drilling reimbursed. Thankfully the rest of us show a little common sense.
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Steven
In a court of law, Motiv might find out, after paying attorney fees, that they (Motiv) have to pay for new balls to be drilled for customers. If you were Motiv, would you want to risk paying attorney fees and then still find out the company is on the hook for paying for drilling? It is a risk reward type scenario.
The threat of lawsuits has been hung over Motiv. What exactly is anyone's guess...
I'm not an Attorney, but assuming that someone could get a class action law suit together, you could be correct. However, I don't see enough money at stake for anyone to put in that kind of effort.
Bowling balls are unique consumer products in that you're not purchasing the finished good. Holes and in most cases inserts and slugs have to be purchased and installed. Arguments that balls might be purchased as ornaments are bogus. 99.9% of the time balls are purchased to be thrown, and that means an additional $50-$80 still needs to be spent by the bowler. The bowler has every right to expect that the bowling ball is manufactured correctly before spending the final drilling dollars for actual use.
In a perfect world, that means the ball manufacturers stand behind making the bowler completely whole if the ball turns out to be defective (cover or core). Unfortunately, that's never been the position of the manufacturers. Assuming that Motiv is going to treat this as just another defect, I don't expect them to do anything different as they would with a crack.
Again, I agree with you on what Motiv should do. I'm simply laying out what Motiv probably will do.
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So let me get this straight . . Motiv is replacing EVERY Jackal/Jackal Carnage regardless of manufacture date. The Jackal came out 9/14. Ball has been out a year and a half and Motiv isn't limiting it to purchases within the last 6 months or anything, they're replacing everything right down to the first ball that was poured a YEAR AND A HALF AGO. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have the OG Jackal already in their basement or closet, retired and done with, who will suddenly now drag them back out pining for every single penny they can milk out of the company. What happens when a ball cracks? They replace the ball and you pay to get the new one drilled. Except in this case you still have a ball you can use for anything non sanctioned. It's just banned by USBC, and unless specifically mentioned in rules for unsanctioned or otherwise sanctioned leagues/tournaments, it's still in play.
Only a bowler could find something wrong with the way Motiv is handling the situation. They're doing the right thing, and pro shops should step up. This is the time of the year when things are slowing down anyway, I find myself spending a couple hours a day just cleaning stuff or watching bowling on youtube or catching up on articles. 10-15 minutes to drill a ball when the original was purchased in my shop to begin with is just part of a warranty and good customer service. Maybe pro shops "shouldn't" be responsible, but it's just part of the deal or part of being in the business. Sometimes these things happen, period. I'm not going to cry about it, and I feel like my customers have earned it. Those who bought the ball online because it was "cheaper," well . . this is why you patronize a pro shop. For some reason people are acting like Motiv did this intentionally or was trying to scam or cheat. So the core molds expanded with use a little, the overage amounts to the thickness of a sheet of paper or two, Motiv is a stand up company and anyone looking to stick it to them loses my respect.
You got that right. Bowlers are just about the most miserable people on the planet. Only people who participate in a game/sport while constantly whining about the game/sport. Two people see some kind of class action lawsuit out of this and demand to have drilling reimbursed. Thankfully the rest of us show a little common sense.
Actually, common sense, to me is:
I have had my heavy oil ball taken away through no fault of mine. The ball and the drilling were taken away. If the ball was stolen, would you expect a full coverage insurance policy to pay for the ball and the drilling?
Now I know that this won't happen, but it does seem to make sense. I am guessing that the ball drillers will be the ones losing by doing replacement drippings for free. How many Jackals do you think are out there? What if a driller has to do hundreds of free drillings? Just my version of common sense...no worries, just too bad it took so long for USBC to do this after so many balls are already out there. I like MOTIV balls and will continue with them.
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I guess the better question is; Who has insurance on bowling balls? :o :o :o
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Motiv would most likely not be required to pay drilling fees if this wound up in court. Their product warranty covers them for defects in materials and workmanship. From a legal perspective, the balls were found to have a latent defect (one that could not be visibly seen by the consumer.) A defective product, in the legal world, is one that can no longer be used for its intended purpose (by bearing the USBC sanctioned logo, that intended purpose would be for bowling in USBC sanctioned events.) In this case, the product had a latent defect that makes it no longer usable in USBC sanctioned competition.
Motiv's warranty remedies defects in materials and workmanship by providing a replacement ball. The warranty further states that drilling expenses are not covered. Motiv would be showing good faith by replacing all affected balls regardless of age (their standard warranty is only 1 year.)
Incidentally, someone was using their Jackal at our sanctioned league last night. No one even cared, which I think is going to be the general attitude for any sanctioned competition other than at the Nationals or Team USA level events.
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Motiv would most likely not be required to pay drilling fees if this wound up in court. Their product warranty covers them for defects in materials and workmanship. From a legal perspective, the balls were found to have a latent defect (one that could not be visibly seen by the consumer.) A defective product, in the legal world, is one that can no longer be used for its intended purpose (by bearing the USBC sanctioned logo, that intended purpose would be for bowling in USBC sanctioned events.) In this case, the product had a latent defect that makes it no longer usable in USBC sanctioned competition.
Motiv's warranty remedies defects in materials and workmanship by providing a replacement ball. The warranty further states that drilling expenses are not covered. Motiv would be showing good faith by replacing all affected balls regardless of age (their standard warranty is only 1 year.)
Incidentally, someone was using their Jackal at our sanctioned league last night. No one even cared, which I think is going to be the general attitude for any sanctioned competition other than at the Nationals or Team USA level events.
You do realize that a sanctioned league is a USBC sanctioned event, right? If someone on the other team protested it, even after the event, the bowler using the illegal ball would need to forfeit all games and prize money won as well as any honor score being thrown would not count.
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The problem is the warranty also implies the ball meets or exceeds all USBC rules and regulations.
As for the Jackal in league, I would not want to take that risk. Someone could shoot a video and have it end up at the local USBC office with "spin me" on it....and yeah, the user would have to forfeit those scores.
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The problem is the warranty also implies the ball meets or exceeds all USBC rules and regulations.
It met those regulations when you bought it. So it will be warrantied.
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This is why I didn't make an insurance comparison because insurance is not a direct parallel. When you insure something, you're insuring it in its entirety. This is a warranty issue, the ball is effectively defective. What you choose to do with the ball after you purchase it is up to you. Same would be with a golf club, if a golf club was found to be defective, the company is responsible for the club, not for also refitting it to you. It's not the company's responsibility what you choose to do with the ball after it's purchased.
So yes, common sense would say IF it was insured, insurance would pay for the entire thing, but again, this is why I didn't use an insurance analogy because it's not the same thing. Wowzers went there, so I responded. This is a warranty issue. Motiv is responsible for the product they put out, not for what was done afterwards. If the exact same thing were done to each and every product, you may have an argument, but how would it legally be fair to award more of a settlement to someone who "customized" their ball more? If someone decides to just drill holes in it, and that cost them $30, while someone else got grips, a new interchangeable thumb system, their name engraved, and then paid to get the surface changed, should all that be paid for? What if an oil extraction was done later? How about a resurface too? Should Motiv also then be responsible for the costs of use? If they're responsible for one cost of use, they should be responsible for it all.
So if over its lifetime, an OG Jackal had 2 oil extractions, 2 resurfaces, a set of grips changed, a name engraved, and perhaps even been plugged and redrilled, Motiv should be liable for all of that. After all, all that money had gone into its use and now you can't use it anymore, and if you think they should pay for costs of use, which is what drilling is, you should also agree that they should be liable for ALL costs of use, because face it, you've now "lost" all that money you have into that ball. Never mind that you're getting a BRAND NEW BALL for just the cost of drilling, for those who are going to get charged for it in the first place.
Effectively you're putting the worth on the use you got out of your Jackal at $0. You're basically telling Motiv they are putting out worthless, useless products. You're not saying, "Oh damn, I've used the hell out of that thing and now I'm getting a new ball for free and all I have to do is pay to get it drilled? Sweet!" I've got an old IQ Nano sitting in the back, if it suddenly got disapproved and Storm told me hey, you can have any ball you want for $70 bucks, I'd be ECSTATIC. Awesome, got plenty of use out if it, it was a good ball, I liked it, it made me some money, now I get a brand new ball at a really big discount, sounds more like a lucky day to me than something to be pissed and enraged about.
So let me get this straight . . Motiv is replacing EVERY Jackal/Jackal Carnage regardless of manufacture date. The Jackal came out 9/14. Ball has been out a year and a half and Motiv isn't limiting it to purchases within the last 6 months or anything, they're replacing everything right down to the first ball that was poured a YEAR AND A HALF AGO. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have the OG Jackal already in their basement or closet, retired and done with, who will suddenly now drag them back out pining for every single penny they can milk out of the company. What happens when a ball cracks? They replace the ball and you pay to get the new one drilled. Except in this case you still have a ball you can use for anything non sanctioned. It's just banned by USBC, and unless specifically mentioned in rules for unsanctioned or otherwise sanctioned leagues/tournaments, it's still in play.
Only a bowler could find something wrong with the way Motiv is handling the situation. They're doing the right thing, and pro shops should step up. This is the time of the year when things are slowing down anyway, I find myself spending a couple hours a day just cleaning stuff or watching bowling on youtube or catching up on articles. 10-15 minutes to drill a ball when the original was purchased in my shop to begin with is just part of a warranty and good customer service. Maybe pro shops "shouldn't" be responsible, but it's just part of the deal or part of being in the business. Sometimes these things happen, period. I'm not going to cry about it, and I feel like my customers have earned it. Those who bought the ball online because it was "cheaper," well . . this is why you patronize a pro shop. For some reason people are acting like Motiv did this intentionally or was trying to scam or cheat. So the core molds expanded with use a little, the overage amounts to the thickness of a sheet of paper or two, Motiv is a stand up company and anyone looking to stick it to them loses my respect.
You got that right. Bowlers are just about the most miserable people on the planet. Only people who participate in a game/sport while constantly whining about the game/sport. Two people see some kind of class action lawsuit out of this and demand to have drilling reimbursed. Thankfully the rest of us show a little common sense.
Actually, common sense, to me is:
I have had my heavy oil ball taken away through no fault of mine. The ball and the drilling were taken away. If the ball was stolen, would you expect a full coverage insurance policy to pay for the ball and the drilling?
Now I know that this won't happen, but it does seem to make sense. I am guessing that the ball drillers will be the ones losing by doing replacement drippings for free. How many Jackals do you think are out there? What if a driller has to do hundreds of free drillings? Just my version of common sense...no worries, just too bad it took so long for USBC to do this after so many balls are already out there. I like MOTIV balls and will continue with them.
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This is why I didn't make an insurance comparison because insurance is not a direct parallel. When you insure something, you're insuring it in its entirety. This is a warranty issue, the ball is effectively defective. What you choose to do with the ball after you purchase it is up to you. Same would be with a golf club, if a golf club was found to be defective, the company is responsible for the club, not for also refitting it to you. It's not the company's responsibility what you choose to do with the ball after it's purchased.
So yes, common sense would say IF it was insured, insurance would pay for the entire thing, but again, this is why I didn't use an insurance analogy because it's not the same thing. Wowzers went there, so I responded. This is a warranty issue. Motiv is responsible for the product they put out, not for what was done afterwards. If the exact same thing were done to each and every product, you may have an argument, but how would it legally be fair to award more of a settlement to someone who "customized" their ball more? If someone decides to just drill holes in it, and that cost them $30, while someone else got grips, a new interchangeable thumb system, their name engraved, and then paid to get the surface changed, should all that be paid for? What if an oil extraction was done later? How about a resurface too? Should Motiv also then be responsible for the costs of use? If they're responsible for one cost of use, they should be responsible for it all.
So if over its lifetime, an OG Jackal had 2 oil extractions, 2 resurfaces, a set of grips changed, a name engraved, and perhaps even been plugged and redrilled, Motiv should be liable for all of that. After all, all that money had gone into its use and now you can't use it anymore, and if you think they should pay for costs of use, which is what drilling is, you should also agree that they should be liable for ALL costs of use, because face it, you've now "lost" all that money you have into that ball. Never mind that you're getting a BRAND NEW BALL for just the cost of drilling, for those who are going to get charged for it in the first place.
Effectively you're putting the worth on the use you got out of your Jackal at $0. You're basically telling Motiv they are putting out worthless, useless products. You're not saying, "Oh damn, I've used the hell out of that thing and now I'm getting a new ball for free and all I have to do is pay to get it drilled? Sweet!" I've got an old IQ Nano sitting in the back, if it suddenly got disapproved and Storm told me hey, you can have any ball you want for $70 bucks, I'd be ECSTATIC. Awesome, got plenty of use out if it, it was a good ball, I liked it, it made me some money, now I get a brand new ball at a really big discount, sounds more like a lucky day to me than something to be pissed and enraged about.
So let me get this straight . . Motiv is replacing EVERY Jackal/Jackal Carnage regardless of manufacture date. The Jackal came out 9/14. Ball has been out a year and a half and Motiv isn't limiting it to purchases within the last 6 months or anything, they're replacing everything right down to the first ball that was poured a YEAR AND A HALF AGO. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have the OG Jackal already in their basement or closet, retired and done with, who will suddenly now drag them back out pining for every single penny they can milk out of the company. What happens when a ball cracks? They replace the ball and you pay to get the new one drilled. Except in this case you still have a ball you can use for anything non sanctioned. It's just banned by USBC, and unless specifically mentioned in rules for unsanctioned or otherwise sanctioned leagues/tournaments, it's still in play.
Only a bowler could find something wrong with the way Motiv is handling the situation. They're doing the right thing, and pro shops should step up. This is the time of the year when things are slowing down anyway, I find myself spending a couple hours a day just cleaning stuff or watching bowling on youtube or catching up on articles. 10-15 minutes to drill a ball when the original was purchased in my shop to begin with is just part of a warranty and good customer service. Maybe pro shops "shouldn't" be responsible, but it's just part of the deal or part of being in the business. Sometimes these things happen, period. I'm not going to cry about it, and I feel like my customers have earned it. Those who bought the ball online because it was "cheaper," well . . this is why you patronize a pro shop. For some reason people are acting like Motiv did this intentionally or was trying to scam or cheat. So the core molds expanded with use a little, the overage amounts to the thickness of a sheet of paper or two, Motiv is a stand up company and anyone looking to stick it to them loses my respect.
You got that right. Bowlers are just about the most miserable people on the planet. Only people who participate in a game/sport while constantly whining about the game/sport. Two people see some kind of class action lawsuit out of this and demand to have drilling reimbursed. Thankfully the rest of us show a little common sense.
Actually, common sense, to me is:
I have had my heavy oil ball taken away through no fault of mine. The ball and the drilling were taken away. If the ball was stolen, would you expect a full coverage insurance policy to pay for the ball and the drilling?
Now I know that this won't happen, but it does seem to make sense. I am guessing that the ball drillers will be the ones losing by doing replacement drippings for free. How many Jackals do you think are out there? What if a driller has to do hundreds of free drillings? Just my version of common sense...no worries, just too bad it took so long for USBC to do this after so many balls are already out there. I like MOTIV balls and will continue with them.
Get this man a hammer because he NAILED it! ;D
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This is why I didn't make an insurance comparison because insurance is not a direct parallel. When you insure something, you're insuring it in its entirety. This is a warranty issue, the ball is effectively defective. What you choose to do with the ball after you purchase it is up to you. Same would be with a golf club, if a golf club was found to be defective, the company is responsible for the club, not for also refitting it to you. It's not the company's responsibility what you choose to do with the ball after it's purchased.
So yes, common sense would say IF it was insured, insurance would pay for the entire thing, but again, this is why I didn't use an insurance analogy because it's not the same thing. Wowzers went there, so I responded. This is a warranty issue. Motiv is responsible for the product they put out, not for what was done afterwards. If the exact same thing were done to each and every product, you may have an argument, but how would it legally be fair to award more of a settlement to someone who "customized" their ball more? If someone decides to just drill holes in it, and that cost them $30, while someone else got grips, a new interchangeable thumb system, their name engraved, and then paid to get the surface changed, should all that be paid for? What if an oil extraction was done later? How about a resurface too? Should Motiv also then be responsible for the costs of use? If they're responsible for one cost of use, they should be responsible for it all.
So if over its lifetime, an OG Jackal had 2 oil extractions, 2 resurfaces, a set of grips changed, a name engraved, and perhaps even been plugged and redrilled, Motiv should be liable for all of that. After all, all that money had gone into its use and now you can't use it anymore, and if you think they should pay for costs of use, which is what drilling is, you should also agree that they should be liable for ALL costs of use, because face it, you've now "lost" all that money you have into that ball. Never mind that you're getting a BRAND NEW BALL for just the cost of drilling, for those who are going to get charged for it in the first place.
Effectively you're putting the worth on the use you got out of your Jackal at $0. You're basically telling Motiv they are putting out worthless, useless products. You're not saying, "Oh damn, I've used the hell out of that thing and now I'm getting a new ball for free and all I have to do is pay to get it drilled? Sweet!" I've got an old IQ Nano sitting in the back, if it suddenly got disapproved and Storm told me hey, you can have any ball you want for $70 bucks, I'd be ECSTATIC. Awesome, got plenty of use out if it, it was a good ball, I liked it, it made me some money, now I get a brand new ball at a really big discount, sounds more like a lucky day to me than something to be pissed and enraged about.
So let me get this straight . . Motiv is replacing EVERY Jackal/Jackal Carnage regardless of manufacture date. The Jackal came out 9/14. Ball has been out a year and a half and Motiv isn't limiting it to purchases within the last 6 months or anything, they're replacing everything right down to the first ball that was poured a YEAR AND A HALF AGO. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have the OG Jackal already in their basement or closet, retired and done with, who will suddenly now drag them back out pining for every single penny they can milk out of the company. What happens when a ball cracks? They replace the ball and you pay to get the new one drilled. Except in this case you still have a ball you can use for anything non sanctioned. It's just banned by USBC, and unless specifically mentioned in rules for unsanctioned or otherwise sanctioned leagues/tournaments, it's still in play.
Only a bowler could find something wrong with the way Motiv is handling the situation. They're doing the right thing, and pro shops should step up. This is the time of the year when things are slowing down anyway, I find myself spending a couple hours a day just cleaning stuff or watching bowling on youtube or catching up on articles. 10-15 minutes to drill a ball when the original was purchased in my shop to begin with is just part of a warranty and good customer service. Maybe pro shops "shouldn't" be responsible, but it's just part of the deal or part of being in the business. Sometimes these things happen, period. I'm not going to cry about it, and I feel like my customers have earned it. Those who bought the ball online because it was "cheaper," well . . this is why you patronize a pro shop. For some reason people are acting like Motiv did this intentionally or was trying to scam or cheat. So the core molds expanded with use a little, the overage amounts to the thickness of a sheet of paper or two, Motiv is a stand up company and anyone looking to stick it to them loses my respect.
You got that right. Bowlers are just about the most miserable people on the planet. Only people who participate in a game/sport while constantly whining about the game/sport. Two people see some kind of class action lawsuit out of this and demand to have drilling reimbursed. Thankfully the rest of us show a little common sense.
Actually, common sense, to me is:
I have had my heavy oil ball taken away through no fault of mine. The ball and the drilling were taken away. If the ball was stolen, would you expect a full coverage insurance policy to pay for the ball and the drilling?
Now I know that this won't happen, but it does seem to make sense. I am guessing that the ball drillers will be the ones losing by doing replacement drippings for free. How many Jackals do you think are out there? What if a driller has to do hundreds of free drillings? Just my version of common sense...no worries, just too bad it took so long for USBC to do this after so many balls are already out there. I like MOTIV balls and will continue with them.
Now your just showing off! :)
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Motiv would most likely not be required to pay drilling fees if this wound up in court. Their product warranty covers them for defects in materials and workmanship. From a legal perspective, the balls were found to have a latent defect (one that could not be visibly seen by the consumer.) A defective product, in the legal world, is one that can no longer be used for its intended purpose (by bearing the USBC sanctioned logo, that intended purpose would be for bowling in USBC sanctioned events.) In this case, the product had a latent defect that makes it no longer usable in USBC sanctioned competition.
Motiv's warranty remedies defects in materials and workmanship by providing a replacement ball. The warranty further states that drilling expenses are not covered. Motiv would be showing good faith by replacing all affected balls regardless of age (their standard warranty is only 1 year.)
Incidentally, someone was using their Jackal at our sanctioned league last night. No one even cared, which I think is going to be the general attitude for any sanctioned competition other than at the Nationals or Team USA level events.
You do realize that a sanctioned league is a USBC sanctioned event, right? If someone on the other team protested it, even after the event, the bowler using the illegal ball would need to forfeit all games and prize money won as well as any honor score being thrown would not count.
Yes, I fully understand that. The fact of the matter is that most bowlers on sanctioned social leagues these days care more about the social aspect of the game than they do the awards, prize money, wins, etc. They show up, horse around, drink beer and eat pizza and wings. It isn't the same as 20 years ago when it was all about awards and number of wins and "point money".
I am on one of the more serious leagues at my house, and even we let people get away with things that wouldn't have flown 20 years ago. Both the league by-laws and USBC playing rules are bent every week.
Is anyone honestly going to carry around copies of the USBC press release that announces the ban and start waving it in the faces of bowlers that put their Jackals on the rack? The ball itself isn't going to give anyone an unfair advantage or be the sole reason why someone scored better than someone else. I guarantee you there are people throwing illegally weighted balls regularly (more side weight, finger weight, etc. than permitted.) That is more of an issue than a Jackal with a diff that was 2% too high before drilling. What is the next step, force all bowlers to have their equipment weighed and logged each week before league?
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I think you're absolutely right here. I'll let people know, but if someone throws a Jackal against me in league, I'm really not going to care. If they shoot 300 with it, I'm still not going to care and I'm going to even feel bad for them that they can't submit the paperwork. I'd be shocked if most people bowling league right now don't have balls that are illegal in one form or another, especially on side/finger weight. Tons of people even tell me they aren't worried about if it's legal on weights or not because they don't bowl nationals. So if that's ok with everyone, why would throwing a Jackal not be? As with balls that are illegal on weight, throwing a Jackal is going to be at your own risk. Someone somewhere WILL make a big deal out of it because they're ignorant. I know that the difference between a ball with a .060 diff and one with a .061 diff is absolutely less than nothing, so I'm not going to sweat it. Logic and common sense could go a long way here.
Motiv would most likely not be required to pay drilling fees if this wound up in court. Their product warranty covers them for defects in materials and workmanship. From a legal perspective, the balls were found to have a latent defect (one that could not be visibly seen by the consumer.) A defective product, in the legal world, is one that can no longer be used for its intended purpose (by bearing the USBC sanctioned logo, that intended purpose would be for bowling in USBC sanctioned events.) In this case, the product had a latent defect that makes it no longer usable in USBC sanctioned competition.
Motiv's warranty remedies defects in materials and workmanship by providing a replacement ball. The warranty further states that drilling expenses are not covered. Motiv would be showing good faith by replacing all affected balls regardless of age (their standard warranty is only 1 year.)
Incidentally, someone was using their Jackal at our sanctioned league last night. No one even cared, which I think is going to be the general attitude for any sanctioned competition other than at the Nationals or Team USA level events.
You do realize that a sanctioned league is a USBC sanctioned event, right? If someone on the other team protested it, even after the event, the bowler using the illegal ball would need to forfeit all games and prize money won as well as any honor score being thrown would not count.
Yes, I fully understand that. The fact of the matter is that most bowlers on sanctioned social leagues these days care more about the social aspect of the game than they do the awards, prize money, wins, etc. They show up, horse around, drink beer and eat pizza and wings. It isn't the same as 20 years ago when it was all about awards and number of wins and "point money".
I am on one of the more serious leagues at my house, and even we let people get away with things that wouldn't have flown 20 years ago. Both the league by-laws and USBC playing rules are bent every week.
Is anyone honestly going to carry around copies of the USBC press release that announces the ban and start waving it in the faces of bowlers that put their Jackals on the rack? The ball itself isn't going to give anyone an unfair advantage or be the sole reason why someone scored better than someone else. I guarantee you there are people throwing illegally weighted balls regularly (more side weight, finger weight, etc. than permitted.) That is more of an issue than a Jackal with a diff that was 2% too high before drilling. What is the next step, force all bowlers to have their equipment weighed and logged each week before league?
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Motiv would most likely not be required to pay drilling fees if this wound up in court. Their product warranty covers them for defects in materials and workmanship. From a legal perspective, the balls were found to have a latent defect (one that could not be visibly seen by the consumer.) A defective product, in the legal world, is one that can no longer be used for its intended purpose (by bearing the USBC sanctioned logo, that intended purpose would be for bowling in USBC sanctioned events.) In this case, the product had a latent defect that makes it no longer usable in USBC sanctioned competition.
Motiv's warranty remedies defects in materials and workmanship by providing a replacement ball. The warranty further states that drilling expenses are not covered. Motiv would be showing good faith by replacing all affected balls regardless of age (their standard warranty is only 1 year.)
Incidentally, someone was using their Jackal at our sanctioned league last night. No one even cared, which I think is going to be the general attitude for any sanctioned competition other than at the Nationals or Team USA level events.
You do realize that a sanctioned league is a USBC sanctioned event, right? If someone on the other team protested it, even after the event, the bowler using the illegal ball would need to forfeit all games and prize money won as well as any honor score being thrown would not count.
Yes, I fully understand that. The fact of the matter is that most bowlers on sanctioned social leagues these days care more about the social aspect of the game than they do the awards, prize money, wins, etc. They show up, horse around, drink beer and eat pizza and wings. It isn't the same as 20 years ago when it was all about awards and number of wins and "point money".
I am on one of the more serious leagues at my house, and even we let people get away with things that wouldn't have flown 20 years ago. Both the league by-laws and USBC playing rules are bent every week.
Is anyone honestly going to carry around copies of the USBC press release that announces the ban and start waving it in the faces of bowlers that put their Jackals on the rack? The ball itself isn't going to give anyone an unfair advantage or be the sole reason why someone scored better than someone else. I guarantee you there are people throwing illegally weighted balls regularly (more side weight, finger weight, etc. than permitted.) That is more of an issue than a Jackal with a diff that was 2% too high before drilling. What is the next step, force all bowlers to have their equipment weighed and logged each week before league?
The house I bowl league on Thursdays(Last Night) announced it over the PA system twice before we started shadow. They also had a notice posted on the doors.
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Motiv would most likely not be required to pay drilling fees if this wound up in court. Their product warranty covers them for defects in materials and workmanship. From a legal perspective, the balls were found to have a latent defect (one that could not be visibly seen by the consumer.) A defective product, in the legal world, is one that can no longer be used for its intended purpose (by bearing the USBC sanctioned logo, that intended purpose would be for bowling in USBC sanctioned events.) In this case, the product had a latent defect that makes it no longer usable in USBC sanctioned competition.
Motiv's warranty remedies defects in materials and workmanship by providing a replacement ball. The warranty further states that drilling expenses are not covered. Motiv would be showing good faith by replacing all affected balls regardless of age (their standard warranty is only 1 year.)
Incidentally, someone was using their Jackal at our sanctioned league last night. No one even cared, which I think is going to be the general attitude for any sanctioned competition other than at the Nationals or Team USA level events.
You do realize that a sanctioned league is a USBC sanctioned event, right? If someone on the other team protested it, even after the event, the bowler using the illegal ball would need to forfeit all games and prize money won as well as any honor score being thrown would not count.
Yes, I fully understand that. The fact of the matter is that most bowlers on sanctioned social leagues these days care more about the social aspect of the game than they do the awards, prize money, wins, etc. They show up, horse around, drink beer and eat pizza and wings. It isn't the same as 20 years ago when it was all about awards and number of wins and "point money".
I am on one of the more serious leagues at my house, and even we let people get away with things that wouldn't have flown 20 years ago. Both the league by-laws and USBC playing rules are bent every week.
Is anyone honestly going to carry around copies of the USBC press release that announces the ban and start waving it in the faces of bowlers that put their Jackals on the rack? The ball itself isn't going to give anyone an unfair advantage or be the sole reason why someone scored better than someone else. I guarantee you there are people throwing illegally weighted balls regularly (more side weight, finger weight, etc. than permitted.) That is more of an issue than a Jackal with a diff that was 2% too high before drilling. What is the next step, force all bowlers to have their equipment weighed and logged each week before league?
The house I bowl league on Thursdays(Last Night) announced it over the PA system twice before we started shadow. They also had a notice posted on the doors.
Announcement was also made before my league started Wednesday night. Wasn't expecting that but left the ball home anyways just in case
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This is why I didn't make an insurance comparison because insurance is not a direct parallel. When you insure something, you're insuring it in its entirety. This is a warranty issue, the ball is effectively defective. What you choose to do with the ball after you purchase it is up to you. Same would be with a golf club, if a golf club was found to be defective, the company is responsible for the club, not for also refitting it to you. It's not the company's responsibility what you choose to do with the ball after it's purchased.
So yes, common sense would say IF it was insured, insurance would pay for the entire thing, but again, this is why I didn't use an insurance analogy because it's not the same thing. Wowzers went there, so I responded. This is a warranty issue. Motiv is responsible for the product they put out, not for what was done afterwards. If the exact same thing were done to each and every product, you may have an argument, but how would it legally be fair to award more of a settlement to someone who "customized" their ball more? If someone decides to just drill holes in it, and that cost them $30, while someone else got grips, a new interchangeable thumb system, their name engraved, and then paid to get the surface changed, should all that be paid for? What if an oil extraction was done later? How about a resurface too? Should Motiv also then be responsible for the costs of use? If they're responsible for one cost of use, they should be responsible for it all.
So if over its lifetime, an OG Jackal had 2 oil extractions, 2 resurfaces, a set of grips changed, a name engraved, and perhaps even been plugged and redrilled, Motiv should be liable for all of that. After all, all that money had gone into its use and now you can't use it anymore, and if you think they should pay for costs of use, which is what drilling is, you should also agree that they should be liable for ALL costs of use, because face it, you've now "lost" all that money you have into that ball. Never mind that you're getting a BRAND NEW BALL for just the cost of drilling, for those who are going to get charged for it in the first place.
Effectively you're putting the worth on the use you got out of your Jackal at $0. You're basically telling Motiv they are putting out worthless, useless products. You're not saying, "Oh damn, I've used the hell out of that thing and now I'm getting a new ball for free and all I have to do is pay to get it drilled? Sweet!" I've got an old IQ Nano sitting in the back, if it suddenly got disapproved and Storm told me hey, you can have any ball you want for $70 bucks, I'd be ECSTATIC. Awesome, got plenty of use out if it, it was a good ball, I liked it, it made me some money, now I get a brand new ball at a really big discount, sounds more like a lucky day to me than something to be pissed and enraged about.
In essence, I agree. However, my ball is essentially new, bought at a Motiv test drive event and drilled by a Motiv staffer. All Motiv. My normal driller may not ( I have not asked yet) drill the replacement for free since I did not buy it there. So a new ball does nothing for me. So, in reality, I have to pay to get back to where I was no fault of my own.
Now, I am not upset (hard to convey over a post) and do realize that stuff happens, life,s not fair and all that, but rather just adding my thinking to the discussion. My ball and drilling have been taken. It just seems logical that to make it right I should get a replacement ball and drilling. But life is rough and I can survive a $50 loss.
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I made enough with my Carnage to afford to replace the ball and drill three times over. Just issue me a credit for replacement. I wish I could get credit for all the POS balls I purchased over the years.
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And that I can sympathize with. However, this is essentially a damaged ball, making it a warranty issue. Warranty covers product replacement, and they are replacing the product. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it works in every warranty case. However again, if it's purchased through a pro shop, I don't know a shop that won't drill the replacement ball for free, it's just part of the deal. One of the reasons I always recommend purchasing through a shop.
This is why I didn't make an insurance comparison because insurance is not a direct parallel. When you insure something, you're insuring it in its entirety. This is a warranty issue, the ball is effectively defective. What you choose to do with the ball after you purchase it is up to you. Same would be with a golf club, if a golf club was found to be defective, the company is responsible for the club, not for also refitting it to you. It's not the company's responsibility what you choose to do with the ball after it's purchased.
So yes, common sense would say IF it was insured, insurance would pay for the entire thing, but again, this is why I didn't use an insurance analogy because it's not the same thing. Wowzers went there, so I responded. This is a warranty issue. Motiv is responsible for the product they put out, not for what was done afterwards. If the exact same thing were done to each and every product, you may have an argument, but how would it legally be fair to award more of a settlement to someone who "customized" their ball more? If someone decides to just drill holes in it, and that cost them $30, while someone else got grips, a new interchangeable thumb system, their name engraved, and then paid to get the surface changed, should all that be paid for? What if an oil extraction was done later? How about a resurface too? Should Motiv also then be responsible for the costs of use? If they're responsible for one cost of use, they should be responsible for it all.
So if over its lifetime, an OG Jackal had 2 oil extractions, 2 resurfaces, a set of grips changed, a name engraved, and perhaps even been plugged and redrilled, Motiv should be liable for all of that. After all, all that money had gone into its use and now you can't use it anymore, and if you think they should pay for costs of use, which is what drilling is, you should also agree that they should be liable for ALL costs of use, because face it, you've now "lost" all that money you have into that ball. Never mind that you're getting a BRAND NEW BALL for just the cost of drilling, for those who are going to get charged for it in the first place.
Effectively you're putting the worth on the use you got out of your Jackal at $0. You're basically telling Motiv they are putting out worthless, useless products. You're not saying, "Oh damn, I've used the hell out of that thing and now I'm getting a new ball for free and all I have to do is pay to get it drilled? Sweet!" I've got an old IQ Nano sitting in the back, if it suddenly got disapproved and Storm told me hey, you can have any ball you want for $70 bucks, I'd be ECSTATIC. Awesome, got plenty of use out if it, it was a good ball, I liked it, it made me some money, now I get a brand new ball at a really big discount, sounds more like a lucky day to me than something to be pissed and enraged about.
In essence, I agree. However, my ball is essentially new, bought at a Motiv test drive event and drilled by a Motiv staffer. All Motiv. My normal driller may not ( I have not asked yet) drill the replacement for free since I did not buy it there. So a new ball does nothing for me. So, in reality, I have to pay to get back to where I was no fault of my own.
Now, I am not upset (hard to convey over a post) and do realize that stuff happens, life,s not fair and all that, but rather just adding my thinking to the discussion. My ball and drilling have been taken. It just seems logical that to make it right I should get a replacement ball and drilling. But life is rough and I can survive a $50 loss.
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Could not agree more......support your local pro shop. You internet buyers get your wallet out and rightfully so.
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I has a conversation with my ball driller on Saturday. I was surprised that he thinks Motiv should pay for drilling fees. I guess he makes some money some way. I told him it didn't matter to me one way or the other.
I picked up a Motiv Primal Rage Remix as a temporary replacement because I have tournaments coming up. I put a little surface on it and I liked how much it hooks on oil. Not too much of a let down from the Jackals.
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Here is something I cant figure out. RG and differential are dynamic balance issues while top weight side weight etc are static weight issues. Why is it that static weights are measured after a ball is drilled, and dynamic specs are measured before a ball is drilled. For example I can have a ball with 4 oz of top weight undrilled, but so long as it is under 3 oz after drilling I am legal. For dynamic balance you can lay out a ball and put a balance hole in the right spot to exceed the undrilled differential limits and it is okay so long as the differential of the undrilled ball is legal.
If USBC would have worried less about core issues, and more about surface alterations they could have had a more significant positive impact on the game. For example I would propose that no ball should come from the factory with less than a 2000 grit finish, and no alteration to the surface should be allowed to take it below such limits. These specs are no harder to monitor than dynamic imbalance, which is not even tested after a ball is drilled.
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Here is something I cant figure out. RG and differential are dynamic balance issues while top weight side weight etc are static weight issues. Why is it that static weights are measured after a ball is drilled, and dynamic specs are measured before a ball is drilled. For example I can have a ball with 4 oz of top weight undrilled, but so long as it is under 3 oz after drilling I am legal. For dynamic balance you can lay out a ball and put a balance hole in the right spot to exceed the undrilled differential limits and it is okay so long as the differential of the undrilled ball is legal.
If USBC would have worried less about core issues, and more about surface alterations they could have had a more significant positive impact on the game. For example I would propose that no ball should come from the factory with less than a 2000 grit finish, and no alteration to the surface should be allowed to take it below such limits. These specs are no harder to monitor than dynamic imbalance, which is not even tested after a ball is drilled.
That is a really good question. One which is also lost on some people who fret about losing to an illegal ball, when in reality, their drilled 'legal' ball may have a greater dynamic imbalance than the drilled 'illegal' ball.
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Here is something I cant figure out. RG and differential are dynamic balance issues while top weight side weight etc are static weight issues. Why is it that static weights are measured after a ball is drilled, and dynamic specs are measured before a ball is drilled. For example I can have a ball with 4 oz of top weight undrilled, but so long as it is under 3 oz after drilling I am legal. For dynamic balance you can lay out a ball and put a balance hole in the right spot to exceed the undrilled differential limits and it is okay so long as the differential of the undrilled ball is legal.
If USBC would have worried less about core issues, and more about surface alterations they could have had a more significant positive impact on the game. For example I would propose that no ball should come from the factory with less than a 2000 grit finish, and no alteration to the surface should be allowed to take it below such limits. These specs are no harder to monitor than dynamic imbalance, which is not even tested after a ball is drilled.
The actual surface roughness would be very hard to field enforce, unless there was a surface scanner or drag profilometer in every bowling center.
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Here is something I cant figure out. RG and differential are dynamic balance issues while top weight side weight etc are static weight issues. Why is it that static weights are measured after a ball is drilled, and dynamic specs are measured before a ball is drilled. For example I can have a ball with 4 oz of top weight undrilled, but so long as it is under 3 oz after drilling I am legal. For dynamic balance you can lay out a ball and put a balance hole in the right spot to exceed the undrilled differential limits and it is okay so long as the differential of the undrilled ball is legal.
If USBC would have worried less about core issues, and more about surface alterations they could have had a more significant positive impact on the game. For example I would propose that no ball should come from the factory with less than a 2000 grit finish, and no alteration to the surface should be allowed to take it below such limits. These specs are no harder to monitor than dynamic imbalance, which is not even tested after a ball is drilled.
That is a really good question. One which is also lost on some people who fret about losing to an illegal ball, when in reality, their drilled 'legal' ball may have a greater dynamic imbalance than the drilled 'illegal' ball.
Because then every pro shop would need an RG swing and the training on how to use it.
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I would suggest Motiv have a set up where you send your ball back, with your drilling specs, Motiv sends the new ball to you Pre-Drilled. In this scenario no one is getting ripped off or taking advantage in anyway. As for any slugs or finger tips, they could be removed before sending your ball in, and then put into the new ball upon arrival.
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I would suggest Motiv have a set up where you send your ball back, with your drilling specs, Motiv sends the new ball to you Pre-Drilled. In this scenario no one is getting ripped off or taking advantage in anyway. As for any slugs or finger tips, they could be removed before sending your ball in, and then put into the new ball upon arrival.
Traditional thumb slugs typically cannot be removed and re-used.
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You're right, but he does have an interesting slant on it, although probably not executable. No matter what you do, people are going to complain that it doesn't feel the same, or smell the same, or whatever. I'll also guarantee that many people will ask for a new layout "while you have it anyway"... It would be a mess, but hey, they've already got one...
However, thinking further along this line......
- Take slugs and use exactable (sp) thumb molds....
- Offer it as an option for those worried about cost (no mods of course)...
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My wife has the traditional thumb slugs, she just decided to go from 10 pound to 13 pound balls as her shoulder finally healed from surgery, the guy running our pro-shop was able to take out her slugs and finger tip inserts and put them in the new balls, that's where my thinking came from.
But even still, the drilling is the main cost, and could be replicated even if you can't get the slug out, or it is too worn down. In her case she only had them put in back in February, so somewhat minimal use to this point on them.