Author Topic: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts. (Read 8259 times)

chitown · « **on:** December 21, 2005, 02:06:55 PM »

My favorite drill layouts on symmetrical balls is pin above the bridge(about 5 1/4) with the cg kicked right to just under 1oz no x-hole. This gives me great length and huge back end. Except on lanes with a lot of carry down. I figured out why this layout doesn't work as well for me on asymmetrical balls.

I think the reason for this is because there opposite from each other. With symmetrical balls longer pin to pap distance creates more length and back end which is better for higher rev players. The ball retains it's side rotation longer.

Asymmetrical balls if you place the pin further from your pap you get more of a forward roll reaction from the pin placement and fine tune the shape with the MB. So if you want the ball to retain it's side rotation longer you have to move the pin closer to your pap which delays the roll and gives more of a continuous reaction.

So with this being said with asymmetrical balls i'm better off setting the pin closer to leverage and setting the MB accordingly. What do you guys think?

Edited on 12/21/2005 10:59 PM

Edited on 12/21/2005 11:00 PM

Re-Evolution · « **Reply #1 on:** December 22, 2005, 02:00:09 AM »

I disagree unless you place the pin closer to PAP than leverage.
I get great length with pin above bridge and MB strong.
If that layout doesn't give you enough length then the condition is too light for the core/cover combo.
I think you are missing the point when Track says that the ball will retain a lot of flare with longer pin to PAP distances. They may still flare quite a bit but that doesn't change the fact that it is a length drill. They flare quite a bit but it is late when they flare, therefore you should still get good length with that type of drilling.
A good example of this is the difference between my Rule and Delta the Rg and Diff are very close to each other and both flare about 4 inches for me but the Delta which is Pin next to ring revs up at about 40' on the proper condition and the Rule which is pin over ring revs up at about 45' on it's proper condition. This is when OOB for both balls.
--------------------
STORM TRACK
www.Bowling-Info.com
BR.com's unofficial FAQ section

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #2 on:** December 22, 2005, 06:03:23 AM »

pin placement = flare

mb placement = hook shape, etc,...fine tuning
--------------------
JEFF
"A Mayhem and a couple of Hercs.......uhm.....Nice!.."

Edited on 12/22/2005 8:24 AM

chitown · « **Reply #3 on:** December 22, 2005, 06:22:28 AM »

I was looking at buddies pro shop asymmetrical layout sheet. It says pin distances closer to 6 1/4 produce more of a forward roll reaction while piun distances closer to 2 1/4 produce more of a side rotation reaction.

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #4 on:** December 22, 2005, 06:54:42 AM »

quote:
I was looking at buddies pro shop asymmetrical layout sheet. It says pin distances closer to 6 1/4 produce more of a forward roll reaction while piun distances closer to 2 1/4 produce more of a side rotation reaction.

there are too many factors involved with mb placement and the way a bowler throws the ball,...surface, balance and/or target holes, etc,etc,etc.....

Ask Track for questions regarding this nature....

You just can't generalize ANYTHING with strong asymetric balls
--------------------
JEFF
"A Mayhem and a couple of Hercs.......uhm.....Nice!.."

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #5 on:** December 22, 2005, 07:20:29 AM »

chi---

here is sort of a shocker! I agree with you!

ESPECIALLY...on Morich balls. I have balls drilled right near bridge with other companies assymetrics and they turn right hard for me at back. BUT with MORICH stuff for myself and everyone I have seen with a standard high track... no sideways backend with pin over bridge. Move these same pins next to ring finger or a touch above and they turn sideways.

Other companies I can have pin near bridge and they turn sideways also(ie Impulse zone from Brunswick).

Bowled last night with a guy with tremendous speed. He cannot make his TSA turn sideways...Pin about an inch from ring.

Had a sahara pin for him almost 2 inches from ring ...sideways!

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS were you referrring to Morich balls? Or other assymetrics.
--------------------
Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)

chitown · « **Reply #6 on:** December 22, 2005, 07:29:33 AM »

quote:
chi---

here is sort of a shocker! I agree with you!

ESPECIALLY...on Morich balls. I have balls drilled right near bridge with other companies assymetrics and they turn right hard for me at back. BUT with MORICH stuff for myself and everyone I have seen with a standard high track... no sideways backend with pin over bridge. Move these same pins next to ring finger or a touch above and they turn sideways.

Other companies I can have pin near bridge and they turn sideways also(ie Impulse zone from Brunswick).

Bowled last night with a guy with tremendous speed. He cannot make his TSA turn sideways...Pin about an inch from ring.

Had a sahara pin for him almost 2 inches from ring ...sideways!

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS were you referrring to Morich balls? Or other assymetrics.
--------------------
Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)

STOP THE PRESS LUCKY AGREE'S WITH ME! LOL!

chitown · « **Reply #7 on:** December 22, 2005, 07:32:49 AM »

Actually LL I was referring to asymmetrical in general but I have only thrown Track asymmetrical. I also heard that Tracks asymmetrical are very similar to Mo-rich.

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #8 on:** December 22, 2005, 07:35:35 AM »

quote:
pin placement = flare

mb placement = hook shape, etc,...fine tuning
--------------------
JEFF
"A Mayhem and a couple of Hercs.......uhm.....Nice!.."

^^^^^^Let me repeat myself..........

CHI..

Yes, they are because the morpheous core was designed by Mo
--------------------
JEFF
"A Mayhem and a couple of Hercs.......uhm.....Nice!.."

Edited on 12/22/2005 8:25 AM

chitown · « **Reply #9 on:** December 22, 2005, 07:38:49 AM »

Jeff I understand what your saying but even with the pin above the bridge and MB just right of thumb(strong position) they still have more of a forward roll reaction compared to a symmetrical ball with the same layout.

Edited on 12/22/2005 8:29 AM

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #10 on:** December 22, 2005, 07:43:23 AM »

quote:
Jeff I understand what your saying but even with the pin above the bridge and MB just right of thumb(strong position) they still have more of a forward roll reaction compared to a symmetrical ball with the same layout.

I understand....I'm just saying that with strong asymetrical balls you can't generalize like that. IT VERY MUCH MAY BE THE CASE.....but NOT all the time and not with everyone. There are too many factors involved w/ strong asyms to make generalizaions. That's all I'm trying to say......
--------------------
JEFF
"A Mayhem and a couple of Hercs.......uhm.....Nice!.."

chitown · « **Reply #11 on:** December 22, 2005, 08:00:47 AM »

I just went on to Mo-Rich web site and looked at his drilling stuff on one of his balls. For a sharp break point for a high track bowler he has the pin at the leverage point and the MB close to the right side of the thumb for Right handers. His forward roll reaction has the pin above the finger and MB kick far right of the thumb. Buddies is correct. I have also seen this with balls I have thrown.

This is very good to know. I had originally thought this was incorrect because I was testing this with a highly polished ball that still seemed to move a lot on the back end. So the polish kind of threw me off. Now when I buy another asymmetrical ball I will know how to drill for what I want.

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #12 on:** December 22, 2005, 08:08:33 AM »

chitown ...

you didn't pay attention to what I said originally........

if you put the pin above your bridge that DOES NOT mean you're going to get forward roll.......the MB placement will determine that......it's THAT combo that does it. Your original post doesn't say or indicate this....

quote:
I just went on to Mo-Rich web site and looked at his drilling stuff on one of his balls. For a sharp break point for a high track bowler he has the pin at the leverage point and the MB close to the right side of the thumb for Right handers. His forward roll reaction has the pin above the finger and MB kick far right of the thumb. Buddies is correct. I have also seen this with balls I have thrown.

OK... ^^^ NOW you're adding the mb placements WITH the pin placements...now this is more clear and generally correct....

also......if you looked at the info Buddies provides.......it says...

quote:
Information provide by Mo-Rich

--------------------
JEFF
"A Mayhem and a couple of Hercs.......uhm.....Nice!.."

Edited on 12/22/2005 9:00 AM

Edited on 12/22/2005 9:01 AM

chitown · « **Reply #13 on:** December 22, 2005, 08:18:32 AM »

I'm not saying your wrong Jeff. I know now that on asymmetrical balls pin placements closer to 6 1/4" from pap will produce more of a forward roll reaction from the pin placement. If I place the pin closer to leverage I will get more of a side rotation at the breakpoint from the pin position.

Now then I would look at the MB to fine tune the reaction shape.

If I want more of an forward roll reaction form an asymmetrical ball I would drill the pin above the fingers and place the Mb closer to the VAL.

It's kind of like this. To drill an asymmetrical ball to have a side ways reaction at the breakpoint I would drill it more of a lable leverage type layout but with the MB about an 1" right of the thumb for a right hander. That's the way it kind of looks.

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #14 on:** December 22, 2005, 08:27:37 AM »

quote:
I'm not saying your wrong Jeff. I know now that on asymmetrical balls pin placements closer to 6 1/4" from pap will produce more of a forward roll reaction from the pin placement. If I place the pin closer to leverage I will get more of a side rotation at the breakpoint from the pin position.

Now then I would look at the MB to fine tune the reaction shape.

I know you're not saying I'm wrong, I'm just trying to help you NOT make too many broad generalizations, that's all. Far too many people (on here too) try to just punch a strong asym ball like any other and wind up saying "this ball sucks"....

REMEMBER.....the pin placement AND mb placement ..the COMBO of those two will create the desired reaction.

quote:
If I want more of an forward roll reaction form an asymmetrical ball I would drill the pin above the fingers and place the Mb closer to the VAL.

without getting into measurements, yes, this is generally correct....

quote:
It's kind of like this. To drill an asymmetrical ball to have a side ways reaction at the breakpoint I would drill it more of a lable leverage type layout but with the MB about an 1" right of the thumb for a right hander. That's the way it kind of looks.

the above reminds me.....don't just "place" it in the generic area either,... (another reason you shouldn't generalize)...you should know your own measurements and place the pin and mb appropriately based on the measurements given, not necessarily the picture. REMEMBER AGAIN,...in strong mb balls...the littlest difference CAN make a difference. That's also why it's important that your driller know strong mb stuff and also know your game.

5" pin to pap 3 3/4" above the midline and 4" mb to pap will give a high tracker a forward roll drill. not just a 5" pin to pap

--------------------
JEFF
"A Mayhem and a couple of Hercs.......uhm.....Nice!.."

Edited on 12/22/2005 9:18 AM

Author Topic: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts. (Read 8259 times)

chitown

Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

Re-Evolution

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

Jeffrevs

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

chitown

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

Jeffrevs

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

LuckyLefty

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

chitown

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

chitown

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

Jeffrevs

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

chitown

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

Jeffrevs

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

chitown

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

Jeffrevs

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

chitown

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.

Jeffrevs

Re: Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layouts.