Author Topic: Nationals as a testing ground? (Read 2695 times)

EagleHunter · « **on:** June 05, 2009, 02:35:20 PM »

First off, there has been some fantastic bowling this year. A few bowlers caught lightning in a bottle and used it to post record scores. These bowlers are living a dream...assuming someone else doesn't decide to live their own dream in the meantime. They are to be congratulated and recognized for their accomplishments.

That said, I have agreed with others on these boards about the need to change the scoring pace for Nationals. Many have disagreed, arguing that the scoring was some type of anomaly. Well let's see...highest AE score ever...highest Singles score ever...3rd place Team AE is in the top 8 ALL-TIME...yeah, that sounds like an anomaly.

At any rate, I want you to consider this...if this year's Championships were being held with TWISTER pins, would any of these scores be as high?

Okay, okay...stop your laughter. I'm sure that the general consensus is that there is little chance that TWISTERS would allow these scores. What about if USBC were to use heavier wood?

What I'm getting at here is...why doesn't USBC use Nationals as a large test case? No need to spend additional membership dollars trying to come with ways to test the effects of certain changes...just implement them at Nationals. People already know and expect a higher degree of difficulty. They should use the tournament to their advantage...and NOT just financially.

Thoughts?

riggs · « **Reply #1 on:** June 06, 2009, 07:20:26 AM »

Interesting idea.

But if you want to bring the scores back down all you have to do is lower the oil volume so proper lane management (intentional or accidental) doesn't create such potentially incredible ball reaction. There simply is so much volume this year that if a dry spot is carved out in a small area in the proper area you can have miss area right and left (due to the high oil volume).

Krakken · « **Reply #2 on:** June 06, 2009, 08:04:19 AM »

quote:
Interesting idea.

But if you want to bring the scores back down all you have to do is lower the oil volume so proper lane management (intentional or accidental) doesn't create such potentially incredible ball reaction. There simply is so much volume this year that if a dry spot is carved out in a small area in the proper area you can have miss area right and left (due to the high oil volume).

But I say with the higher volume, if that dry spot is in the wrong place you have absolutely zero chance to score. I have heard more people talk about the breakdown killing their scores than I have them talking about how the breakdown has helped.

I think using as a testing case could turn it into a circus. And that will hurt the participation numbers. Who wants to spend all that money to go there and not know what you will face?

I think higher volume is the way to go, because at least for the 11:20 am squad, it has to hold up for 3 squads.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes

NOTHUMB · « **Reply #3 on:** June 06, 2009, 09:43:49 AM »

Shorter pattern idea is interesting---except that I could go in with Urethane or plastic and set up the same puddle. Doesnt fix anything.
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Chris Barnes is not a choker---he is just a great opponent to draw on TV.

another300 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 06, 2009, 10:17:41 AM »

Oil after every squad. At least make it fair for everyone.

rob_mil26 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 06, 2009, 11:20:20 AM »

another300 has nailed it. Won't truly be fair until all squads are on fresh. After following 2 sets of classified bowlers (for the 3rd straight year) I knew we had no chance after throwing our practice balls and watching them either hook at our feet and roll out at 30 feet or go 60 feet dead straight. Now granted I wasn't throwing the ball anywhere close to decent, but what we were bowling on was NOT an 850-scoreable condition. How the USBC can't figure out a way to get all the events on the fresh for their national championship is beyond me.

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"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."
- Henny Youngman

DukeHarding · « **Reply #6 on:** June 06, 2009, 11:41:46 AM »

quote:
Oil after every squad. At least make it fair for everyone.

To oil before each squad, they would have to run squads 24/7.
Who would want to be bowling on the 4 am squad?
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Duke Harding

Krakken · « **Reply #7 on:** June 06, 2009, 11:57:33 AM »

quote:
quote:
Oil after every squad. At least make it fair for everyone.

To oil before each squad, they would have to run squads 24/7.
Who would want to be bowling on the 4 am squad?
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Duke Harding

Or they could extend the event another 2-4 weeks. Going 6 months already. What is another month?
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes

230-n-up-or-bust · « **Reply #8 on:** June 06, 2009, 12:01:25 PM »

quote:
quote:
Oil after every squad. At least make it fair for everyone.

To oil before each squad, they would have to run squads 24/7.
Who would want to be bowling on the 4 am squad?
--------------------
Duke Harding

With all of the money the USBC is collecting from the Binion's bracket payout/sponorship deal, why not pony up the money for a few more oiling machines to cut down on the time necessary to dress the pairs?
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Return with your shield or on it. Strength and honor. Help control the population of Avenging Unicorns. Arm yourselves accordingly. MTIXE

"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo

lsf_21 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 06, 2009, 12:04:44 PM »

if you have enough oiling machines you can knock out oiling pretty quick
it takes approx 45 minuets to oil 16 lanes at our house so lets say you have one oiling machine for every 16 lanes you can oil between every squad
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GO CUBS!!!!
GO CELTICS!!!!

Edited on 6/6/2009 12:05 PM

DukeHarding · « **Reply #10 on:** June 06, 2009, 12:05:51 PM »

quote:
quote:
quote:
Oil after every squad. At least make it fair for everyone.

To oil before each squad, they would have to run squads 24/7.
Who would want to be bowling on the 4 am squad?
--------------------
Duke Harding

With all of the money the USBC is collecting from the Binion's bracket payout/sponorship deal, why not pony up the money for a few more oiling machines to cut down on the time necessary to dress the pairs?
--------------------
Return with your shield or on it. Strength and honor. Help control the population of Avenging Unicorns. Arm yourselves accordingly. MTIXE

"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo

How about NOT re-oiling for the Classified bowlers?
Let them bowl on lanes with less oil (read easier)?
Set aside so many lanes for the Classified bowlers...re-oil for the Regular division...I think the Classified bowlers would rather have less oil, anyhow.
What do you think?

Regular division bowlers would not have to put up with bowlers throwing plastic, etc. on their lanes?
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Duke Harding

DukeHarding · « **Reply #11 on:** June 06, 2009, 12:07:34 PM »

quote:

With all of the money the USBC is collecting from the Binion's bracket payout/sponorship deal, why not pony up the money for a few more oiling machines to cut down on the time necessary to dress the pairs?
--------------------
Return with your shield or on it. Strength and honor. Help control the population of Avenging Unicorns. Arm yourselves accordingly. MTIXE

"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo

That's a good idea.
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Duke Harding

Juggernaut · « **Reply #12 on:** June 06, 2009, 12:15:08 PM »

[Dons flame retardant clothing]

O.K., here goes. Until EVERYONE is competing within the same parameters, bowling will never be a "fair" game.

I love bowling, but there are just too many variables in the game today to ever be able to honestly compare one set of scores against another. I really don't begrudge those with better conditions or scores, just can't use their scores as a true comparison to their talents or abilities.

You have oil volume, which differs from center to center. You have several different playing surfaces. You have a MULTITUDE of balls, all with different surface frictions and weightblocks, being thrown by a MULTITUDE of bowlers, each with his own particular rev, tilt, and rotation, being drilled in a MULTITUDE of different ways.

While the individualistic aspects of the sport can never be reduced, the other aspect of the game should be. Playing surfaces should be limited to much stricter parameters. Oil volumes should be much more strictly regulated, AND BALL PHYSICS SHOULD BE GREATY REDUCED TO VERY STRICT PARAMETERS. Then, all these should be strictly enforced.

Nationals would be a GREAT place for this to happen. Let people compete at home on their shots with their equipment and have a great time. Let the proprietors run their businesses and make their money. But, let the U.S.B.C. NATIONALS be run with very strict, limited, and demanding conditions that are the EXACT SAME for each and every participant.

The more you limit the variables, the more an athletes true talents and abilities show through. They don't lower the rim in basketball for shorter participants, or shorten the course or widen the fairways in golf for poor hitters. At the highest level of competition, sports are designed to let the most talented/gifted athletes prevail, not the guy who accidentally had the best "matchup" or deeper pockets with which to purchase an advantage.

The GAME of bowling needs much more regulation to be considered a SPORT. The difference is a game is played and a sport is competed in. Before a competition can be seriously taken, it must be regulated to ensure that it is a fair and equitable competition for all participants, not just the accidental few.

Think I'll keep me flame retardant suit on for a bit longer. Something tells me I'm going to need it.
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Good transactions list in my profile

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

backswing_aplenty · « **Reply #13 on:** June 06, 2009, 12:33:03 PM »

From Juggernaut: "At the highest level of competition, sports are designed to let the most talented/gifted athletes prevail, not the guy who accidentally had the best "matchup" or deeper pockets with which to purchase an advantage."

But the guys that scored this year are at the top of the talent pool at the highest level of our game's competition. They are the best bowlers shooting the best scores just like the best in other sports breaking records.

Just because they bowl the National tournament with seniors, beginners, house hacks, etc. they are lumped into the "lanes are too easy" category. We've seen time and again the best bowlers will shoot the best numbers. Someone always shoots a 300 at the US Open but the scoring average as a whole for the tournament is way down. Someone will always have to win singles, this year was just a record setting year, and I believe the scores are down overall for the masses, no?

Lower the volume and create less hold, overall scores might be a touch higher, but the astronomical scores would be limited. Though a Classified/Regular division seperation would be a thought. Experiment with a new regulatory measure each year in Regular division - pins, volume, equipment eventually etc. (while keeping a tougher lane condition in Classified, no house shot.) Maybe the trickle down effect will happen with heavier pins, stricter lane conditions, less aggressive balls making their way down from the highest level tournament in the country?

*backswing
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Storm Staff 2009

Professional Approach Staff So Cal

Edited on 6/6/2009 12:34 PM

Juggernaut · « **Reply #14 on:** June 06, 2009, 01:10:44 PM »

quote:
From Juggernaut: "At the highest level of competition, sports are designed to let the most talented/gifted athletes prevail, not the guy who accidentally had the best "matchup" or deeper pockets with which to purchase an advantage."

But the guys that scored this year are at the top of the talent pool at the highest level of our game's competition. They are the best bowlers shooting the best scores just like the best in other sports breaking records.

Just because they bowl the National tournament with seniors, beginners, house hacks, etc. they are lumped into the "lanes are too easy" category.

Didn't really mean it that way. Just meant that the parameters for a true NATIONAL competition should be VERY strict and VERY demanding. Didn't mean they're shot was "too easy", just didn't sound "tough and demanding" either. I don't really care who wins, just that it was actually the person who performed the best both physically and mentally.

quote:
We've seen time and again the best bowlers will shoot the best numbers. Someone always shoots a 300 at the US Open but the scoring average as a whole for the tournament is way down. Someone will always have to win singles, this year was just a record setting year, and I believe the scores are down overall for the masses, no?

I don't know, but even if they are, that only shows how much the widened variables can ( and do ) effect the scorng of the game. When you have such high "HIGH" scores, and so low "LOW" scores, it seems to say that range of conditions being faced is just too great. True, there will always be the "hacks" who show up and shoot 400, lacking skill to do better, I just find it incredible that ANYONE has the talent to shoot 850 or better on a condition that is supposed to be "tough and demanding".

quote:
Lower the volume and create less hold, overall scores might be a touch higher, but the astronomical scores would be limited. Though a Classified/Regular division seperation would be a thought. Experiment with a new regulatory measure each year in Regular division - pins, volume, equipment eventually etc. (while keeping a tougher lane condition in Classified, no house shot.) Maybe the trickle down effect will happen with heavier pins, stricter lane conditions, less aggressive balls making their way down from the highest level tournament in the country?

Strict enforcement of stringent conditions at the national competition level is a GOOD thing. Do the actual scores matter, as long as they are a reflection of a true, stringently enforced, fair competition? Would it make it any better for you to shoot an 850 and win nationals than a 650 and still win? I'm not trying to make the good bowlers score bad, I'm trying to narrow the parameters of how those scores can be thrown.

Let the league bowlers have their leagues. Let the houses have their easy shots and high scores. Also let the NATIONAL COMPETITION of the NATIONAL ORGANIZATION have much stricter and more stringent parameters and enforcement thereof.
--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Author Topic: Nationals as a testing ground? (Read 2695 times)

EagleHunter

Nationals as a testing ground?

riggs

Re: Nationals as a testing ground?

Krakken

Re: Nationals as a testing ground?

NOTHUMB

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another300

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rob_mil26

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DukeHarding

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Krakken

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230-n-up-or-bust

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lsf_21

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DukeHarding

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DukeHarding

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Juggernaut

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backswing_aplenty

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Juggernaut

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