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Author Topic: Scoring still not a problem?  (Read 4906 times)

EagleHunter

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Scoring still not a problem?
« on: June 28, 2009, 01:32:18 PM »
First off, I have no intention of high-jacking any other threads that are congratulating other bowlers on some tremendous scoring at Nationals.  The bowlers that are leading any of the events have bowled spectacularly and deserve kudos and a tip of the cap.  

This thread though, is not about those bowlers or their accomplishments.  It is about the scoring pace/level at Nationals.  Early on, after Ron Vokes scoring record, some on these boards stated that a problem existed with the scoring pace (I happened to agree with them).  Others stated that this was an isolated incident.

Here we are almost at the end of the event...yet another record was broken.  Can anyone still suggest that this is an isolated incident?

If, as Riggs has earlier suggested, USBC is attempting to make the condition more "friendly" to the average player, which apparently is resulting in the better than average player making the condition look like a house shot, does the USBC risk damaging the credibility of the event itself?

Records are made to be broken, but not on a regular basis.  At what point can it be said that a problem exists?

 

Jorge300

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2009, 02:35:47 PM »
quote:
As for big picture perspective, I believe I have a pretty good grasp of reality.  The big scores may be few, but tell me...what does the average bowler look at...the 10th, 50th, and 100th place scores?  Or the winning record score?  Reasonable people will look at various factors, but most average bowlers don't strike me as being that reasonable.


EH, here is where your arguement falls flat. The "average" bowler is looking at the low to cash score, not the first place score. Why? Because the "average" bowler isn't going out there to realistically contend for first place. If you think so then you are sadly mistaken. Unless you consider "average" to be a 220+ house shot average bowler, then you are just mistaken, you are an elitist. The fact that the low to cash numbers will be in line with the prior years will be all the bowlers need to see, you won't see a huge exodus (that wouldn't have happened already with the venue change and the 2 years of Reno). In this case a few very very good bowlers, caught pairs that allowed them to use their skills and talents to the fullest extent possible. Nothing more, nothing less. Now if you went out there and shot an 862 or 2300 then I would say the lanes are too easy, .
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Jorge300

Jorge300

EagleHunter

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2009, 07:35:32 PM »
Jorge,
To be honest, I think your argument falls flat on this one.  I don't think the true average bowler going to Nationals is concerned with cashing at all...I think most are out there for the vacation alone.  If they get a check when everything is done, then it's considered a bonus.  

On the other hand, I think your "fringe" better than average bowlers, or perhaps the local THS greats, do look at low-to-cash (LTC), figuring they have a remote chance.  But these are not your average bowlers.

LTC scores since 2001 seem to fall around a 185-190 average roughly, in the Regular Division.  How many of the average bowlers have a chance to shoot those scores at Nationals?  Not too many I would suspect, not even on their best day more than likely.  I have seen too many 210+ house greats go out to Nationals and not break 500 for any set...for many years.  Knowing the average 180-190 player typically has one type of game, typically going up 10 or so, doesn't give me too much confidence that they could get to LTC scores...they would have to be pretty close to average or over-average on a condition that is usually foreign to them.

Out of curiosity Jorge...who do consider to be the "average" bowler at Nationals?

EagleHunter

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2009, 07:50:28 PM »
Riggs,
I agree with your post.  To be clear, I have ZERO beef with the bowlers posting the record scores.  They are each tremendously talented individuals with long records of success.  I have the utmost respect for them as well.

quote:
Bottom line: You see the sky falling with 3 record scores. I think those scores are merely a symptom of the real problem -- minors not being on fresh. The pattern is fine -- the format is the problem. Fix the format and there is no 862, 2,321-857 or 1,566.


I agree with your above assessment as well.  The format needs to be fixed.  If it is not though, I do fear that what happened this year will continue.  I wouldn't say the sky is falling, but based on how quickly USBC tends to respond to issues, not to mention the $$$ involved in implementing the fix that is needed, I am afraid that a trend will evolve.  There already is a trend in Dbls...5 records set/broken in 9 years.  I fear that such a trend will damage the event in the long-run.

My hope, and I mean this as sincerely as possible, is that USBC takes a long, hard look at this issue.  That they look for input from accomplished individuals, such as you, and that the necessary changes are implemented.  If it gets to the point where signatures are needed for a petition to send to USBC, include me and I will get you as many signatures as is needed from my area.

Thank you for your valuable insight and input.  Keep up the great work!

riggs

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2009, 08:22:06 PM »
Thanks EH.  Appreciate the kind words.

I am with you in the concept of everything you say. As I said I just see it as merely a symptom of the problem, which is minors not being on fresh.

We will never turn back the clock on technology in any major way -- these balls and oils are here to stay and everyone should just accept that. (USBC could never afford the legal fight that I'm sure they would face if they tried meaningful rolling back of technology.)  That horse left the barn in 1982 or 83 when the PBA Executive Board overruled the unanimous vote of the Tournament Committee to ban urethane balls.

As an aside, I've said before I like how technological complexity has made bowling (at the sport level) more of a thinking man's game than it was when I started.  The choices/adjustments are many, many times more complex than they were when we carried two balls and moved our feet a couple boards in a night.  

Back on point, I don't see USBC ever going for all fresh for minors, based on a long and very friendly chat I had with a USBC official a couple of years ago. It's like this: USBC sees every one of those lanes for every squad as an economic opportunity. When one is not filled they in essence "lose" money.

To go to all fresh for minors they would have to extend the day even further, which they don't deem feasible, since bowling already goes for all but about 4 hours a day and they must have some down time for breakdowns, maintenance, etc.

Or they limit the number of teams so they can cut out one minors squad each day. Then they are faced with "losing" money due to those empty lanes. Yes you could do that and extend the tournament by a certain amount of time, but that costs money in salaries and expenses.

They could raise entry fees to cover that perhaps, but how many of the bowlwers would understand and agree to the trade-off of more money for true equity in all events? The top echelon for sure, but how many others?

I understand USBC's position but it still disappoints me because what it says is $$$$ trumps equity in deciding some of our national champions.  

To take it to an extreme, I would concede that every one of my four eagles is "tainted" in a way since all of them came from events where bowlers in front of me helped determine how I did -- 1986 team, 1997 all-events, 2005 doubles, 2005 team all-events.  It is one reason winning team would be so satisfying: every team starts with as close to the same environment as is humanly possible and it is up to you to make of it what you can.  You CANNOT say that about doubles, singles, all-events or team all-events.

Pinbuster

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2009, 07:18:21 AM »
As long as bowling is contested on a surface that requires conditioner to be applied and subsequent play will alter the playing surface the inequities will exist.  Unfortunately I don’t see a solution for this yet.

I don’t think it has been done but you could even have a case where a doubles group could set up the lanes for companion team mates to follow in singles.

If you want to think about major shifts in scoring you need to go back to Wichita in 1989 with the use of AMF HPL, urethane, and lane conditions.

The bigger issue in bowling is not these record scores at the national tournament but the explosion of honor scores and averages at the local level in league play.

As stated earlier, if high scores got more bowlers then we would be in the best of times but since the scoring explosion sanctioned bowling has dropped off a cliff.




riggs

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2009, 08:26:10 AM »
Pinbuster, if all minors were on fresh you would have situations of teammates managing pairs for other teammates from doubles to singles, but I would argue that this is a GOOD thing.  It is the same as teams working together to manage a pair in team event.  It is NOT RANDOM as minors is now -- it is simply teamwork, which is something we should be REWARDED for and take pride in!!!

Phoneman

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2009, 08:49:49 AM »
I would remind you that some minors are on fresh.  The 7:00 squad is on fresh every day and since there is still no team the 9:20 squad is not broken down totally yet.  I ran in to it this year on the 9:20 squad. The doubles pair was ok and playable but since the 4 guys on the pair we went to for singles were all playing straight off the 2nd arrow it really opened up for me and my partner.  If we could have had the look we had for 1st game of singles for the last game of doubles we would have had 1375 in doubles instead of 1225.  I went 266 game 1 of singles and my partner went 245.  this goes with what Riggs has been saying.  All minors should be shot on fresh since they all ready put the 7:00 squad at a disadvantage/advantage depending on how you look at it.

wabullets

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2009, 02:48:29 PM »
Riggs,

Would it be a more if they reversed the schedules......

7AM --  Doubles/Singles
920AM  --  Team Event

Re-Oil

130PM  --  Doubles\Singles
350PM  --  Team Event

Re-Oil

730PM --  Doubles/Singles
945PM --  Double/Singles
Midnigght  --  Doubles/Singles


riggs

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2009, 04:02:01 PM »
Bob is right about USBC's view that team event is primary -- I have heard that more than once from USBC officials when talking about the oiling policy and minors not being all fresh.

And wabullets, what would that solve -- with that schedule you'd now have some minors squads AND team squads not on fresh so you'd now go from fairness in team and inequity in minors to inequity in all events. A step in the wrong direction!

wabullets

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2009, 04:26:05 PM »
Was just a curious question and I think you are probably right......though.....while being a step in a wrong direction.....it did, in your words, put everybody on a more even playing field by it being an inequity for all  

riggs

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2009, 08:21:43 PM »
That's sort of akin to having all fresh but with house shots.  More equitable perhaps but distasteful.

Edited on 7/2/2009 8:21 PM

richartm

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2009, 09:14:48 AM »
quote:
Pinbuster, if all minors were on fresh you would have situations of teammates managing pairs for other teammates from doubles to singles, but I would argue that this is a GOOD thing.  It is the same as teams working together to manage a pair in team event.  It is NOT RANDOM as minors is now -- it is simply teamwork, which is something we should be REWARDED for and take pride in!!!


Riggs, I was with you until this post. All fresh means fresh, fresh, fresh - not fresh, fresh, managed. Especially since you can't control how your doubles teams are laid out (at least I can't ).

riggs

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2009, 09:27:39 AM »
Richartm, it is not feasible to oil for both doubles AND singles -- although I'd go for it if it was possible!!! -- so singles is not going to be fresh.

And you can control your doubles in that with 10 guys on two teams you would have 8 of your guys flipping with each other and you can designate who of your 8 bowls on which pairs. (And 2 split off.)

richartm

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2009, 08:36:02 PM »
quote:
Richartm, it is not feasible to oil for both doubles AND singles -- although I'd go for it if it was possible!!! -- so singles is not going to be fresh.

And you can control your doubles in that with 10 guys on two teams you would have 8 of your guys flipping with each other and you can designate who of your 8 bowls on which pairs. (And 2 split off.)


Thanks Riggs - I agree it's not feasible, just saying your plan is fairer, but not the ultimate level playing field either...

Regarding doubles "control", this year our first duo was on a pair with strangers instead of the last duo. And the switch for singles didn't happen as we expected either. Do we need to make our intentions clear when we submit our entries, or it that just the luck of the draw? Thanks.

riggs

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Re: Scoring still not a problem?
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2009, 07:43:36 AM »
When I get my entry blank I send it in the next day with ALL OF THE ENTRY MONEY.  And I include a note requesting minors times and arrangement.