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Author Topic: USBC and the Two handers  (Read 3653 times)

TWOHAND834

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USBC and the Two handers
« on: February 08, 2010, 02:59:48 AM »
So I call USBC rules department this morning and spoke to this guy whose name I wont mention.  Told him that I was aware of rule changes based on two handers as far as drillings and thumb holes in the ball are concerned.  Told him that when I went out there last year, I had no issues.  But, another guy from my area had gone out there and was told in the scale room that they needed him to try and put his thumb in the thumb hole as though there was a size requirement for the hole.  The rule book this year doesnt state anything about span length, thumb hole size, and weight hole specs for bowlers who do not use a thumb.  It says nothing about having to be your "true" span length (my normal span is 4 1/8) but my equipment is drilled 3 3/4 and the thumb hole is directly under the ring finger so I can cover it with my palm if I have to.  

So the rules guy at USBC tells me, "You are not sure what is going to happen in the scale room.  You may or may not be asked to prove the thumb hole drilled is useful."  SO....he is a rules person who cant tell me what the rules are in regards to proper drillings for two handers.  He did ask, "Can you cover the thumb hole with your thumb or palm of your hand?"  I said yes.  He then stated, "You should not have anything to worry about.  But why dont you drill your thumb holes to normal size?"  I told him that there were no rules regarding hole size if you dont use a thumb and since my track clips the hole, that the smaller the hole, the less time my track will hit that hole and that I had to have a hole there for static weight requirements. His next course of action was to transfer me to someone else and that he could not tell me what to expect once I get to Reno.  

Nothing in the rulebook states anything about covering the hole with your palm in regards to USBC.  For the record, I did go to the pro shop and drilled my virtual thumb holes a little bigger.  I am so glad that they can clarify rules regarding bowlers who throw the ball in a manner that I do.  

My question is:  why have rules for two handers in the rule book if you are not sure how those rules apply at your own tournament (USBC Tournament)?
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Russell

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2010, 11:04:14 AM »
I think it's well documented that USBC is run by a bunch of morons...(except Matt Cannizarro)
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BrunsMike

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2010, 11:17:20 AM »
2 handed bowling is still a new style for most of us including the USBC. Instead of complaining about it, why not try to offer some help to the USBC with 2 handed rule's and clarification? Obviously you're used to this and have a much better understanding what should be in the rule's and how it should be in the book's. Just my thought's.
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J_w73

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2010, 01:12:23 PM »
The USBC is like this on most of their rules.. They make rules that really mean nothing and it is really rare for them to give you a definite ,"this is how it is" answer.  I wish they had atleast one person there that knew the rules and how to interpret them...

that being said.. I looked at the rule book and it does say this about two handed or thumbless APPROACH. I think this would be the rule you would be looking for.

Holes:
The limitations governing the drilling of holes in the ball
can be found on page I-3.
Note that for two-handed techniques, the holes or indentations
for gripping purposes must be used and be
capable of being used by the same hand.

The way I see it is if you have a thumbhole then you have to be capable of putting your thumb in it.

So if the hole is too big to be a weight hole then you better be able to put your thumb into it.  If it is within the weight hole size/rule limits then it is considered a "weight hole" and you can place it anywhere on the ball as long as the ball is within weight limits.  You shouldn''t have to be able to use it because it is a "weight hole" not a thumbhole..

anyone see it any different.
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Edited on 2/8/2010 2:13 PM
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completebowler

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2010, 01:57:00 PM »
I'm pretty sure you don't have to put a thumb hole in the ball. This would then create a grip center that is the bridge between the fingers and allow much different layouts due to statics.

I remember seeing something in the rules a few years back about "gripping holes" that led me to this thought. Statics are based off g.c. and if you only grip the ball with fingers (and only put those holes in) then your g.c. becomes directly between the fingers.

Someone correct me if they have a different interpretation or if this language has changed.

To the op...it is only IF you put a thumbhole in the ball that your thumb has to fit. Know what I mean?
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J_w73

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2010, 02:19:04 PM »
quote:
I''''m pretty sure you don''''t have to put a thumb hole in the ball. This would then create a grip center that is the bridge between the fingers and allow much different layouts due to statics.

I remember seeing something in the rules a few years back about "gripping holes" that led me to this thought. Statics are based off g.c. and if you only grip the ball with fingers (and only put those holes in) then your g.c. becomes directly between the fingers.

Someone correct me if they have a different interpretation or if this language has changed.

To the op...it is only IF you put a thumbhole in the ball that your thumb has to fit. Know what I mean?
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The proper way to determine center of grip on different grip configurations is defined in the rulebook.

You are correct, you don''''t have to have a thumbhole drilled in the ball. If you do, like the original poster does, All gripping holes drilled must be ABLE to be used for gripping.. So if you drill a thumbhole you don''''t have to use it but you have to BE ABLE to to use it.. this stops someone from putting the cg and a huge hole off to the right side and saying, "it is my thumb hole."
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18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185


Edited on 2/8/2010 3:25 PM

Edited on 2/8/2010 3:25 PM
350 RPM, 17 MPH

TWOHAND834

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2010, 07:29:58 PM »
quote:
2 handed bowling is still a new style for most of us including the USBC. Instead of complaining about it, why not try to offer some help to the USBC with 2 handed rule's and clarification? Obviously you're used to this and have a much better understanding what should be in the rule's and how it should be in the book's. Just my thought's.
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Mike Zadler
"When in doubt, Pull out" - Rob Stone
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=552&suffix=12886



You know, Mike.  I just may do that.  I know a old friend (Mitch Mitchell) that has been on USBC staff for a long time that hopefully will be in Reno for the Opening Ceremonies.  If I see him, I will have a talk with him and see if we can have a more in depth talk about the future of us two handers and if there is going to be rules concerning us, what those rules will be/might be.
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
Former Classic Products Assistant Manager

DanH78

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2010, 08:04:42 PM »
quote:
The USBC is like this on most of their rules.. They make rules that really mean nothing and it is really rare for them to give you a definite ,"this is how it is" answer.  I wish they had atleast one person there that knew the rules and how to interpret them...




The US Government can't even come to an agreement on how to interpret their rules and laws, why should the USBC be any different?  Perhaps it's happened in the past, but I can't remember a time that the Supreme Court returned a unanimous ruling.  And they are supposed to be some of the greatest legal minds in the country.  

In the grand scheme of things, most rules are open to interpretation.  Like Brunsmike said, you can complain and see nothing get done, or you can do something to try to help make things better.
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mumzie

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2010, 11:49:06 PM »
The last time I bowled the tournament, we had a rules issue. NO ONE THERE on staff HAD A RULE BOOK.
I dug one out that was 2 years old, and I was told they Wouldn't use it - but THEY COULDN'T FIND A CURRENT ONE!!!!!
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Jorge300

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2010, 07:58:56 AM »
I had a friend who went thumbless a few years ago, so this may be dated and the rules mayhave changed.

At that time the rules stated that you could only have one hole in the ball that wasn't used for gripping purposes. So he had a ball and wanted a weight hole it in, so he had ir drlled with fingerholes, the weight hole and no thumbhole, since he wouldn't be using it. This ball passed all checks that I know of. I would assume this would pertain to the two-handed bowlers as well. If you have a "thumbhole" in the ball, it has to be useable or else it would fail this rule. If it isn't in a position on the ball, and of a size that would fit your thumb of your dominant hand, then it has to be a weight hole. No issues if you don't have any other weight holes in the ball, but if you do, then it might be deemed illegal.
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Jorge300

Balldoctor

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2010, 04:22:24 PM »
As I understand the rules, if you have a balance hole and a thumb hole,
you have to be able use or  cover the thumb hole.
Three gripping hole allow you the USBC tolerances.
If you use two gripping holes those tolerances  are cut in half.
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Gazoo

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2010, 06:25:02 PM »
J_w73 is correct.
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J_w73

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2010, 08:07:35 PM »
quote:
J_w73 is correct.
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wow.. I think that is like the 3rd time someone has actually agreed with me on this board..HAHAHA
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18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
350 RPM, 17 MPH

BBU

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2010, 08:13:11 PM »
You can also talk with Gene Kanak right on here. Just search for his name. He works for USBC and he is being trained by USBC to be a two handed bowler. He would be your best bet.
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BrunsMike

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Re: USBC and the Two handers
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2010, 08:35:24 PM »
quote:
quote:
2 handed bowling is still a new style for most of us including the USBC. Instead of complaining about it, why not try to offer some help to the USBC with 2 handed rule's and clarification? Obviously you're used to this and have a much better understanding what should be in the rule's and how it should be in the book's. Just my thought's.
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Mike Zadler
"When in doubt, Pull out" - Rob Stone
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=552&suffix=12886



You know, Mike.  I just may do that.  I know a old friend (Mitch Mitchell) that has been on USBC staff for a long time that hopefully will be in Reno for the Opening Ceremonies.  If I see him, I will have a talk with him and see if we can have a more in depth talk about the future of us two handers and if there is going to be rules concerning us, what those rules will be/might be.
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!


Good luck with that and hope something can get acheived. I myself is not a 2-Handed bowler, just a normal conventional 1 hander. lol I'm just now starting to come into my own this way I couldn't imagine how long it would take me to learn the 2 handed style. Provided I could even do it. I've tried in the past but little success mainly because of no ball speed.
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Mike Zadler
"When in doubt, Pull out" - Rob Stone
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=552&suffix=12886
Mike Zadler