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Author Topic: Mixed Breed Pearl  (Read 14364 times)

scotts33

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Mixed Breed Pearl
« on: January 02, 2012, 02:03:59 AM »
MBP is posted on the Visionary Website  Nice color.  Looking forward to hearing more.

Scott

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ch_flash

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2012, 02:23:59 PM »
Scott,

If you get your hands on one of the Mixed Breeds, solid or pearl, Let me know where they spin to.

I will be getting this ball. The pearls are more suited to my game. I have to make sure I get the correct specs for whichever one I get though.

Happy New Year and good bowling.


If you didn't like that strike, just watch this one!

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If you didn't like that strike, watch this one!

scotts33

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 02:57:40 PM »
I see on BBE you are going to put the marked MB if that is what it is left of the thumb in your track.  Not sure what that means?
 
ch_flash wrote on 1/2/2012 3:23 PM:
Scott,

If you get your hands on one of the Mixed Breeds, solid or pearl, Let me know where they spin to.

I will be getting this ball. The pearls are more suited to my game. I have to make sure I get the correct specs for whichever one I get though.

Happy New Year and good bowling.


If you didn't like that strike, just watch this one!

http://visionarybowling.com/ Test Staff Member


Scott

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MC

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 03:36:36 PM »
With the MB left of the thumb, wouldn't that really calm down the reaction you get from the core, basically relying on the cover strenght for the ball motion?


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scotts33

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 03:46:03 PM »
As far as I know it's a z-spinner so drilling like you do as a normal asymmetric y-spinner is completely different.  Different layouts need to be used to be an effective piece of equipment for most bowlers.
 
MC wrote on 1/2/2012 4:36 PM:
With the MB left of the thumb, wouldn't that really calm down the reaction you get from the core, basically relying on the cover strenght for the ball motion?


"Don't Give Up... Don't Ever Give Up." -Jim Valvano
"Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence." -Vince Lombardi

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Scott

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TWOHAND834

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2012, 03:54:37 PM »
I wonder what they are trying to accomplish by going to a z-spinner ball.  So for someone like me, where would you put the MB?  If I dont kick everything right, everything wants to hook/stop on me.  This is labeled as a "strong asymetrical.  So I assume that means that I would not be able to kick everything right too far or else the ball will rev up too early and die.  I guess I cant really throw this ball then?



Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Steven Vance
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Former Classic Products Assistant Manager

scotts33

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2012, 04:28:15 PM »
I am basically unsure Steve.  I have asked questions here. from ch_flash. 
 
I would be better if Jason W. came on this thread and explained exactly how these balls should be laid out. for different player types high rev cranker, stroker and tweener. To me, I am starting to think the VBP asymmeticals for the most part should be laid out as 1:30 label laid out balls. 
TWOHAND834 wrote on 1/2/2012 4:54 PM:
I wonder what they are trying to accomplish by going to a z-spinner ball.  So for someone like me, where would you put the MB?  If I dont kick everything right, everything wants to hook/stop on me.  This is labeled as a "strong asymetrical.  So I assume that means that I would not be able to kick everything right too far or else the ball will rev up too early and die.  I guess I cant really throw this ball then?



Peace doesnt always have to be silent.


Scott
 
Edited by scotts33 on 1/2/2012 at 5:28 PM
Scott

TWOHAND834

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2012, 04:54:29 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasnt the No Mercy a Z-spinner?  If so, the "preferred" layout was that 1:30 layout you describe, pin above/beside the ring finger and MB left of the thumb hole.  Curious as to what they suggest for high track/high rev players.



Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
Former Classic Products Assistant Manager

MC

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2012, 05:40:36 PM »
I know from talking to Jason about the New Breed core, that they were seeing the ball did not have the amount of reaction as expected in the hands of high track players. I emailed him today to see if they had found this for this core. I will see what kind of information he provides me and update you guys if it may help.

 


"Don't Give Up... Don't Ever Give Up." -Jim Valvano
"Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence." -Vince Lombardi

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scotts33

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2012, 05:49:45 PM »
Jason has said that before an up the backer might have issues with some of the asymmetricals.  I am not an up the backer and have had issues with some of the newer tech VBP balls.  Some of it too strong of a cover for lane conditions used on and some of it balls laid out incorrectly because of the tech involved in the balls.
 
MC wrote on 1/2/2012 6:40 PM:
I know from talking to Jason about the New Breed core, that they were seeing the ball did not have the amount of reaction as expected in the hands of high track players. I emailed him today to see if they had found this for this core. I will see what kind of information he provides me and update you guys if it may help.

 


"Don't Give Up... Don't Ever Give Up." -Jim Valvano
"Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence." -Vince Lombardi

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Scott

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batbowler

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2012, 10:30:27 PM »
The Hart in the No Mercy wasn't the marked mb and that's why the recommended drilling was in the track!! Placing the Hart in the normal mb location weakened the reaction! I had two drilled, one with Hart in track and one in normal mb location. The one drilled with the Hart in the normal mb location was my weaker reacting and used for dry/broken down conditions!!!


Train a child up in the way they should go and when they are old they will do some "Damn Good Bowling", be a "DV8" and not turn from it, besides bowling starts with a Big B!

 

The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.


Bruce Campbell
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Originator of the -35deg x 25  leverage drilling!

http://www.damngoodbowling.com/catalog


 


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scotts33

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2012, 11:08:49 PM »
I believe Bruce is correct but until; we get some defnitions as to whether the marked MB is actually the intermediate differential or the actual MB.....then it's a shot in the dark.
 
On the NM.....you are exactly right.  The HART was the Z axis or the intermediate RG axis, which is 6 3/4 from the x (pin) and y (MB) axis. I think this is what ch_flash was speaking of but I didn't understand under his definition of terms but I think this is what he means.  So, for bowlers that were putting the actual MB in an stronger position right of thumb for a rightie as they would on a y-spinner they were intentionally making it a weak ball unknowingly.   
batbowler wrote on 1/2/2012 11:30 PM:
The Hart in the No Mercy wasn't the marked mb and that's why the recommended drilling was in the track!! Placing the Hart in the normal mb location weakened the reaction! I had two drilled, one with Hart in track and one in normal mb location. The one drilled with the Hart in the normal mb location was my weaker reacting and used for dry/broken down conditions!!!


Train a child up in the way they should go and when they are old they will do some "Damn Good Bowling", be a "DV8" and not turn from it, besides bowling starts with a Big B!

 

The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.


Bruce Campbell
USBC Bronze Certified Coach
IBPSIA Certified Technician
Originator of the -35deg x 25  leverage drilling!

http://www.damngoodbowling.com/catalog


 




Scott

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ch_flash

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2012, 09:49:11 AM »
Scott,


"The marking on the ball is actually your mass bias, which in the case of a Z spin ball like this, is the intermediate RG axis"- a quote from Jason.


 You are right. The mark is not the PSA. Just like the No Mercy was. I guess that means it is the intermediate rg. I spoke to Jason  about the way mine is drilled and he said that, along with a short pin and low top, it is NOT good for me. The only time I get any good reaction is to come up the back of the ball with no hand. It is awesome this way, but not my A or B game. lol. When I move in and turn it just a bit, it hooks out as soon as it starts. Jason told me that with the z-spin balls, you measure 90* from the pin and 90* from the mark, where they cross, is the PSA.  On my ball, that puts the PSA just above my midline and 2" past my PAP. Not the best location, you think? The bow tie on the track is below my thumb and the flare almost rolls over my PAP.  So, when I drill one again, I'm drilling the cg in palm area, with the pin right of the RF, and the marked mb to the left of my thumb. I need more top wt and longer pin because I have a 5" span and I use the big IT* thumb insert.

These are just like the No Mercy, drill them with the marked MB to the left of the thumb (for right handers.)

The ball still has that VBP carry with the pins low. I can get it to the pocket with no problem, but I didn't drill it to play the 'down-n-in with no hand' shot. Maybe when I'm older and I lose 250 revs.  



scotts33 wrote on 1/3/2012 0:08 AM:
I believe Bruce is correct but until; we get some defnitions as to whether the marked MB is actually the intermediate differential or the actual MB.....then it's a shot in the dark.

 

On the NM.....you are exactly right. The HART was the Z axis or the intermediate RG axis, which is 6 3/4 from the x (pin) and y (MB) axis. I think this is what ch_flash was speaking of but I didn't understand under his definition of terms but I think this is what he means.  So, for bowlers that were putting the actual MB in an stronger position right of thumb for a rightie as they would on a y-spinner they were intentionally making it a weak ball unknowingly.   



batbowler wrote on 1/2/2012 11:30 PM:
The Hart in the No Mercy wasn't the marked mb and that's why the recommended drilling was in the track!! Placing the Hart in the normal mb location weakened the reaction! I had two drilled, one with Hart in track and one in normal mb location. The one drilled with the Hart in the normal mb location was my weaker reacting and used for dry/broken down conditions!!!



Train a child up in the way they should go and when they are old they will do some "Damn Good Bowling", be a "DV8" and not turn from it, besides bowling starts with a Big B!


 


The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.



Bruce Campbell
USBC Bronze Certified Coach
IBPSIA Certified Technician
Originator of the -35deg x 25  leverage drilling!

http://www.damngoodbowling.com/catalog



 





Scott




If you didn't like that strike, just watch this one!


http://visionarybowling.com/ Test Staff Member

 

Edited by ch_flash on 1/3/2012 at 10:56 AM
 
Edited by ch_flash on 1/3/2012 at 10:57 AM
If you didn't like that strike, watch this one!

scotts33

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2012, 09:13:29 AM »
A little addendum to this discussion on z-spin asymmetrics.
 
 
 


Scott

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Re: Mixed Breed Pearl
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2012, 05:11:03 PM »
Hello everyone,
 
A couple days ago, I got an email from Scott asking me to come on here and try to help out with some explanations on the Mixed Breeds, and possibly some of the other balls in our current line.  Sorry for the delay, but right now I have been extremely busy.
 
There are two types of asymmetric bowling balls on the market, Y spin and Z spin.  Y spin bowling balls have the MB located on the preferred spin axis (PSA).  This is also the point located approximately 6 3/4" from the pin, through the CG (providing they are in line).  Z spin balls have the PSA located 90 degrees off of the the MB and pin, or approximately 6 3/4" from both the pin and MB.  On a DeTerminator or other device used to locate the high RG axis, the PSA is the axis in which the ball wants to rotate around.  Given the time, every ball will migrate to rotate around the PSA, and the higher the differential and lower the RG, the faster it will get to this point. 

Now, to explain the MB location marked with a V on the Mixed Breed.  Z spin bowling balls, will spin to a point using a DeTerminator or other device made for finding the high RG axis.  When you flip the ball, it will spin to a point directly opposite the first point marked.  Half way between these two points is where the MB is located, and it should be almost directly in line with the pin and CG.  This is where we mark the MB with the V.

Locating the PSA points on the Mixed Breed is extremely simple.  If your pro shop has a DeTerminator, the ball will spin to the PSA points.  If they don't, they can simply place the 0" mark at the top of the quarter round on the pin, and run the middle rib down to the V.  Each end of the quarter round should now be on the PSA points.
 
Next, lets define what symmetric vs asymmetric balls are.  

Dynamically, a symmetric ball does not have a definite high RG axis or intermediate RG axis.  The Y and Z axis will spin at the same rate on the RG swing, and create nearly identical or identical RG results.  In fact, any axis around the equator of the bowling ball (using the pin as a pole) will have nearly the exact same RG.  

An asymmetric ball will have a well defined high and intermediate RG axis, and will find one point to rotate around (the PSA).  

Symmetric - Intermediate differential at or near 0"
Mild Asymmetric - Intermediate differential between .002" and .007"
Moderate Asymmetric - Intermediate differential between .008" and .014"
Strong Asymmetric - Intermediate differential greater than .015"

Core dynamics are very complex, and manufacturers numbers and marked locations are only true prior to drilling.  Once you start putting holes in the ball, you not only change the RG, RG Differential, and static weights, you can also change where the PSA is located.  

When you drill a hole in the ball, the RG is typically raised slightly on the axis that runs through the center of the hole.  However, the biggest impact comes from the fact that the RG is lowered on the axes (plural for axis) that are perpendicular to the hole. In reality it is a little more complex than this, but this is the basics.  Now depending on the shape of the core, the density of the material drilled out, and the size and depth of the hole this can be fairly minor, or pretty significant.

How do the holes affect the ball?
Here are some data results from one of my early tests with the Mixed Breed Solid:

Take a Mixed Breed, which starts out with an RG of 2.520" on the X axis, 2.557" on the Y axis, and 2.572" on the Z axis.  The ball has a total differential of .052" and an intermediate differential of .015".

First, we put a thumbhole directly into the MB location (also the Y axis and is marked with a V), which lowered the RG on the X and Z axes, and raised the Y axis.  This was a normal size thumbhole (1" diameter and 3" deep), which brought the RG's to 2.514" on the X axis, 2.565" on the Y axis, and 2.566" on the Z axis.  After the thumbhole, the total differential is still .052", but the intermediate differential is now down to .001" instead of .015".  

Next we drill the fingers 1" below the pin (which is the X-axis), and used normal fingers (size and depth for inserts).  This raises the X axis and lowers the Y axis and the Z axis.  So now after the thumb and fingers are drilled, we have an X axis of 2.521", a Y axis of 2.558" and a Z axis of 2.557".  This means the ball now has a total differential of .037" and an intermediate differential of .001".  Dynamically, this is significantly different than the ball that we started with.

Now here is where the interesting part comes in.  Because this ball has virtually no intermediate differential, there is NO PSA!  This ball is now dynamically symmetric, and will be more than happy to rotate around any spot that is 90 degrees off of the X axis (again on the DeTerminator or similar device).  Bowlers with a high rev rate and a fair amount of side rotation will likely love this ball.  Bowlers who are high trackers and come up straight behind the ball will likely hate it.  But the great thing about this, is you can now generate a PSA in a variety of different locations on the positive side of the ball with proper weighthole location and size.  If you place a weighthole near the thumb (a double thumb), you will create a PSA that will be in or right next to the weighthole.  If you migrate the weighthole towards the Z axis, the PSA will follow.

In this instance, I placed a 1" weighthole just right of the thumbhole, approximately 2.5" deep with the hole pitched to where it would not intersect with the thumbhole.  The end product was an RG of 2.520" on the X axis, 2.568" on the Y axis, and 2.550" on the Z axis.  This gave the ball a total differential of .048" and an intermediate differential of .018", and a PSA located in the center of the weighthole (just right of the thumb).  Dynamically this is fairly strong, and gave the bowler a strong midlane, with pretty aggressive backends and great continuation.  His only complaint is that he leaves more 9 pins now than before, but very rarely leaves a 10 pin anymore.

What effect does moving the mass bias away from the thumb have on a Z spin bowling ball?

As you move the CG and MB towards the positive side of the ball, you slowly remove the effect of eliminating the intermediate differential, and the PSA not only gets closer to the thumbhole because of the drilling placement, but also because of the dynamics created by the hole.  The dynamic effect on the ball actually pulls the PSA from it's original location towards the thumbhole, so from this point on, the original PSA location is no longer accurate.

For example, a Mixed Breed with the thumbhole 3 3/8" from the marked mass (with the mass bias on the positive side) and the fingers 1" under the bridge with a weighthole 1" above and 2" right of the thumbhole, ends up an RG of 2.527" on the X axis, 2.557" on the Y axis and 2.576" on the Z axis.  This gives you a total RG differential of .049" and an intermediate differential of .019" with a PSA located just to the left of your thumb.  As you can see, the total and intermediate differentials are almost identical to the above example, but the RG's on the Y and Z axes are inverted.

As you can continue moving the MB further right you will increase the total differential and intermediate differential to the point where you can have a total differential over .070" and an intermediate differential over .030".  I typically do not suggest a layout like this for most bowlers because it can cause the ball to flare extremely fast and burnout, especially under today's lane conditions and the coverstock strength of this ball.

Drilling scenarios are a little different with Z spin balls than Y spin or symmetrics, but it should not be too complex for most pro shops.  RG's are affected by hole locations on every ball, and knowing how these holes affect the RG and differential is something most pro shops should know and understand.

Jason Wonders
Visionary Bowling Products
 
Edited by VBPadvertising on 1/6/2012 at 8:45 AM
 
Edited by VBPadvertising on 1/6/2012 at 2:13 PM
 
Edited by VBPadvertising on 1/6/2012 at 2:24 PM