win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!  (Read 7914 times)

jbtsouthwest

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
Howdy,

The 2005 Storm Las Vegas Main Event begins December 26 at Texas Statiuon, Las Vegas NV.

If you still haven't entered, there is still time.  You can mail your entry by December 17, and walk-in spots are available as space permits (mornings, likely).

First place is guaranteed at $3000 in scratch, $2000 in handicap, and $1500 in girls scratch.  In addition, we guarantee that 24 spots in scratch, 18 in handicap, and 10 in girls scratch will receive at least $100, so it's not too top-heavy a prize fund.   I don't know any other event that guarantees these prizes, especially on a $80 entry fee (I know its not cheap to get and stay there, too).  Sorry if I'm wrong about that.

All the info you need to know, and a complete entry list, is at www.jbtsw.com.

We hope to see you there.

Thanks,
Jeff



 

recognize_talent

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2006, 02:36:36 AM »
hey jeff its me, you think i could change my squad from the 6:30 squad to the 8am one?....no wait now can i bowl the one at 1pm?....no is there still space in the 2:30 sqaud?

thats an inside joke for jeff he'll no who i am, the rest of you dont need to know. but thanks Jeff for all the help youve been for me during main event, looking forward to bowling some jbt in cal, but you gotta get a whole lot more of them set up thins year in so cal like. there are 14 events to our 7 in the other conferences, that aint right.

now on to business. i cant say that re-entries are not fair or that they are, i didnt know that so many people had been knocked out by someone who had reentered, that part is surely not fair. i do like tkhe idea of having a limit on the reentries. but then agian im with the prize fund growing as the tourny plays out. i do know that whatever your last set of scoring is then that should be the one that determines your place. so now a reentry becomes a risk, not practice, like mr koff did. this will help ensure that those who do reenter are reentering with the intention of bowling for the cut.

and real truth....shut it. they bowled multiple sqauds and lost multiple money, whats the problem?
--------------------
"Strikes show them you know the game. Spares show them you can play the game."

When you bowl a 300, then you have a little sense of what it is like to be Jesus Christ.

A wise man knows when he is beat, it's time you RECOGNIZE Talent!!!

jbtsouthwest

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2006, 08:49:59 AM »
Hi all,

WOW, I had no idea this was causing this much of a stir, we heard little to nothing about all this during the event!  I actually think it didn't cause much of a stir, but happens to be a topic close to the hearts of many of the 'regulars' on this website...

First of all, there's no place at all for personal attacks.  Strong opinions are fine- name-calling is not acceptable.

Now, anyway, some random thoughts...

Again, there's two definite sides.  Limiting bowles to one re-entry sounds decent to me.  Very few bowlers had time (or room) for more than one re-entry anyway, and most of those bowlers actually DIDN'T improve enough to make the cut (I'll have to investigate that more closely later).  So, the tournament wouldn't have been that different if one re-enry was the max.

If there were no re-entries, again, subtract $4,800 from the prize fund, mostly from scratch- so you're talking more like $3,000 for first place, and proportionally less on down.  I would have thought prize fund was the #1 most improtant thing...

Cayson, on your squad leader bonus thing, the squad leaders are almost always in the top few anyway, so I don't really see that as a big deal at all.  Squad leaders this year qualified #1,2,3,5, and 6, so guaranteeing them a spot seems redundant to me...

ANother thing we did think of is one thing Jared pointed out, that people who re-enter, especially last chance, would get so tired that the benefit from getting a second chance would be cancelled out by fatigue.  That certainly appeared to be true for Jared, I don't know for how many other 'marathon' bowlers.

Here's the thing on raising the re-entry fee: I would hate for it to be seen as a big money-grab (even if it is in reality all prize fund).  Upping last chance, for example, to $100 or more, for so few spots, will leave an awful lot of people with a bad taste in their mouths, and stuff like that is concerning to a tournament director...

See, putting any sort of limitation on things always opens up a new can of worms that you don't see coming beforehand.  That's why we left it at just re-enter as much as you like.  All of your ideas so far are very good, but every single one of them makes me go  "but what if..."... In the end, 64 outstanding bowlers got into the semifinals, which should be the point of 'fair'.

As an aside, I don't think what we had this year was incredibly 'unfair'... You all were well aware of the re-entry format, so as a bowler I would have made sure to bowl my first squad the first squad possible, and re-enter at least once, especially knowing it would be a harder shot,  Given the money you spent to be there, I think everyone could have come up with an extra $60 more, borrowed it from a friend, heck, borrowed it from me!  

Specifically to Jon and the other younger ones, if this was an adult tournament the prize fund and entry structure would be WAYYYY different.  I think you look at things differently (which is perfectly fine) because you've never known a time when scholarships WEREN'T a part of junior bowling.  They only go back to the late 80s (YOU only go back to the early 90s, dang you!!!)  If you look at junior bowling in terms of making money as in a business, it will always disappoint you... try not to do that too much!  But I've had the whole financial discussion elsewhere of why I feel it's sooo very worth it, feel free to email me for it...

I don't want people to read these boards and think there were fights on-site over re-entries, that was certainly not the case.  

OK... let's say the format was: $100 entry fee, no re-entries, $80 last chance.  Last chance squad we could take 180 bowlers.  This would allow a similar prize fund to this year, since the entry fee increase would offset the lack of re-entrants.  Questions: 1) how many make it from last chance?  2) Do Last chance bowlers keep their new scores or old?  2) If they keep their new, won't it be seen as unfair if they do way better with the new ones because they're the only ones who got that second chance?  3) if they keep their old no matter what, what's the point of bowling it?  4) what do we tell bowlers we can't fit on that squad?

Let's say the format was only one re-entry max.  Then, the big question is, do you have to take the re-entry score, even if it was lower?  We asked this question for regular season re-entry events a few years ago, and it met with a resounding NO-- waay too much like gambling, and no reward for your 'good' score, etc... So, I don't think I could be convinced to do that.  

What if all the re-entries were in one squad only?  Well, fine, but what if that one squad kills them?  That was sorta the case already in teh E squad this year, which was at least 50% re-entries.  

SO... while typing all this, the "FAIREST" solution is simply this: NO re-entries, NO last chance.  But then, is it less FUN???  Is what you'd be doing to squeeze out that last drop of 'fair' worth it for taking away part of teh fun of the tournament for many bowlers?  Part of what makes it the "MAIN" event is that many fols are there for 3 days straight... If it's four hours and done, no need to stick around... hmmm...

I also implore you to remember that most of you here typing are some of our more successful bowlers, who often feel that re-entries hurt them by giving 'lesser' bowlers more chances.  Which, in the short run, may be the case.  But it's these 'lesser' bowlers entering 3,4,5 times that really bulk up a prize fund, and the fact that there IS re-entries is specifically what encourages them to bowl in the first place, because they're still learning and need second chances.  These 'lesser' bowlers, mind you, often quickly become the next batch of superstars, so discouraging them to bowl makes no sense.

What I've tried to do above is show you the hundreds of different angles from which this one question can be approached, all of which have to be considered when you're running the thing.  Whatever seems obvious to yuo might never have been thought of by someone else, and vice versa.  And this is just one question of hundreds when conducting a national tournament.  Ugh!!!

Again, if we grow at the same rate as we did this year, we'll have approximately 700 first time entries next year, which will almost completely eliminate room for re-entries anyway (we have room for 780 as it stands now).  I think if you all do a good job spreading the word, we can easily fill that field.  So, let me turn the tables and already beg the people who are most against re-entries to become our biggest recruiters, get to teh 780 mark, and prevent the re-entries altogether!

By the way, 780 entries at $100 each would mean one hell of a prize fund... git R done!!!!!

I realize that the point of all of this is to find a balance between the most "fair" and most "fun" tournament of all.  Of course, everyone has a different idea of what fair and fun exactly is.  In my mind, the 8 people that made the finals were the 8 best bowlers of the week, without a doubt.  Isn't that 'fair'?  The spots we're debating the 'fairness' of are the last few people in and the last few people out (in general), which always causes a big blowup in every sport (BCS anyone)...

Just some random thoughts, thanks to everyone for their input so far, keep it coming!

Thanks,
Jeff

jrbowler

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2006, 10:59:50 AM »
Jeff-

If you are getting that many new entries, I would just eliminate re-entries all together.  

I don't know how familiar you are with the Tournament before yours'.  The Las Vegas Junior Invitational.  I believe their last entry was over $100.  The cut ratio was 1:6 or 1:8 (not sure).  So if they had 700 bowlers, they had either 117 or 88 bowlers making the cut into 6 more regular games.  They would take 10 bowlers into their modified stepladder.  10-9-8-7 winner playing 6-5-4, that winner playing 3 then 2 then the top seed.  They didn't have matchplay.  Prize fund was $5000 for 1st and $500 for 10th.  14 & under boy's top prize was $1500, 14 & under girls was $1000.  I don't remember what the Girls Scratch prize fund was.

Squads were: Total of 4 squad times.  3 squads of all scratch boys. 1 squad of Girls Scratch. 1 squad of 14 & under girls. 1 squads of 14 & under boys.  The bowling center had all the 14 & under boys & girls and girls scratch bowling at the same time.  

The bad thing I didn't like about their tournament was their deadline.  They did not bend at all.  You could not walk in and bowl.  I knew many that thought they could do that.  I believe they turned away 25 entries the last year I bowled it.  

Jeff-

I like matchplay.  I don't like re-entries.  I'd pay $120 for the original entry.  Since you have a set number(64), maybe you should go to a higher cut number before you cut to the finals.  That might help more people making the cut.






ShermDawg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Nothing Hits Like A Hammer
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2006, 01:45:33 PM »
i think everyone needs to realize the LVJIT is dead... and the reason for it being dead from what i heard is that the directors werent getting enough comped rooms for the tourney from Texas Station so they canned the whole tournament... what a bunch of nice people who really care about junior bowlers right?   Jeff is the man for taking over and even having a tournament at all... and constantly critisizing the tourney may not be the best idea... i think opinions and suggestions are cool... and the re entry thing has been working obviously because look how much scholarship was raised off of it honestly... i know its impossible to please everyone because there are varying opinions out there but i think Jeff does a great job and maybe rather than specifically posting on here about it maybe talk to him directly at a JBT or through e mail and give him suggestions...  maybe it would be a possibility of raising the original entry fee to 100 $ and the re entry up to 80% so it may only be 20 more dollars but would up the prize fund all around emmensly... if i stay junior for my final year next year or go adult im hoping to talk with jeff more and be a bigger part of the tournament behind the scenes wise and help out because i think its a great tournament and the only reason i did not attempt to help this year was cuz i was filled with too much alcohol while i was not bowling since it was my 21st b-day and all... JBT honeslty runs the best events around with the best scholarship prizes...

i think a cool idea for the format possibly... would be to instead of going straight to matchplay from qualifying, maybe have semi's inbetween and then go to a bracket with best 2 of 3 game matches.... maybe cut to top 16 and go from there... just more ideas...

but the main thing is the re entry and i think that a lot of people dont mind the re entry and there are a good hand full that dont like it... if that many people didnt like it why would there have been so many re entries....

--------------------
"2 Hours Sleep + A Couple Beers = Good Bowling"
Sherman
Mason Sherman
Hammer Regional Staff
Vise Regional Staff
www.hammerbowling.com
www.viseinserts.com
www.facebook.com/mason.sherman

jrbowler

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2006, 02:37:36 PM »
The people running the Invitational I understand were burnt out.  The family originally were running it for their kids.  They all grew up, and didn't really have a desire to continue any longer.  They wanted too much from Texas Station, I agree.  They should of asked Jeff to take the tournament over.  I understand they wouldn't work with him.  The tournament was running for over 20 years I believe.  Jeff would probably get burnt out too if he ran it for over 20 years! HA.

If there are re-entries allowed then there will be re-entries bowled.  No one wants to not make the cut in a tournament.  With 600 bowlers and 64 spots, there will be 536 not making the cut.  There were bowlers that were assured they made the cut.  I heard one guy say, "I'm plus. 60th place is minus quite a bit.  I'm not going to waste my money. I'm in."  Well, he didn't make the cut and the cut ended being plus 35.  Others re-bowled because they felt they would get bumped out.  

I can see re-entries like in the Wipeout.  You bowl your 8 games to try and beat the board.  No playoffs or match play.

I wouldn't mind re-entries if there was a ratio of entries to spots.  Not an exact number (60) everyone in which everyone wanting to re-enter is lining up at Tuesday 6am not wanting to get shut out.  Jeff did this weird number drawing, instead of drawing names.








jrbowler

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2006, 02:45:56 PM »
One last thing.  I was in the cut at least 15 spots before the Tue afternoon squad bowled.  I got knocked out.  That's the way it goes.  I could have bowled Wed at 6am.  I figured my odds were poor.  100 bowlers for 4 spots for $60.  I just packed up Wed and we started back to Cali.

calibowler

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2006, 03:42:00 PM »
Personally, i dont think you should get a re-entry AT ALL... if you cant do it the first time, suck it up....

thats my beef LOL...

anyways... it was my last year...


--------------------
Karen Rosprim
CSU Fresno
"If you want some, come get some..."

jbtsouthwest

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2006, 03:46:27 PM »
Me again!!!

Jrbowlr-

Being knocked down 15 spots isn't that unusual, even with the re-entry talk going on.  About 30% of the field bowled that squad (the largest squad by far at 171 entries), and 1/5th the semi field of 60 is 12, so theoretically you should have been knocked down 12 spots.  So that's not mathematically unusual to be knocked out 15 spots or so.  I think Steven Black fell close to 20 spots, so it definitely was teh highest scoring squad, most likely due again to teh re-entering bowlers figuring out the pattern sooner.

I wouldn't blame you at all for not bowling last chance, they are indeed very long odds.  That's why I'm wary of charging even more for it and expanding the field, even if we add a few more spots. Sure, it works out great if you happen to win the spots, but its a lot of broken hearts if not.

Mason, I don't mind people bringing up maturely written criticsims on here- heck, I encouraged it!  That said, everyone please feel free to email me as well to get into more detail.  I like people to understand WHY we make the decisions we make, even if they don't personally agree with them.

The old Invitational was good, but so was the old PBA as well, and it's gone too, hehe....

What I really don't like about the Invitational was their payout.  $5000 for first is awesome, but paying 10 spots for 700+ bowlers is not something I agree with.  That's 1 out of 70 cashing.  I didn't even know that was legal!  On 700 entries we'd pay a minimum of 70 spots.  Format wise they were fine, but I believe that format wise (the basics) we're just fine as well.

I also didn't care for specific divisions at specific times.  That's way too inflexible, and I think they just did that so it was easier for them.  We like to be as bowler-friendly and flexible as possible.

On our entry counts for semifinals, those are adjusted each year based on an appropriate ratio of entries per division.  Clearly that number will go up in Open Scratch next year.

We tried to look very closely at the old Invitational, learn from what they did both right and wrong, and create an even better event for you to bowl in now.  We will continue to build on our progress in year three and beyond. Anyone who knows our regular JBT SW events knows we are constantly evolving, as any event should be.  

Anyway, it was perfectly legitimate of you to bring it up, lol.  :-)

TheRealTruth and Mason, dudes, relax.  Take it to another thread please.  Mature comments about the topic are more than welcome from both of you.  If not, that's cool, but I'll stop posting on this thread.

Thanks,
Jeff

ShermDawg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Nothing Hits Like A Hammer
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2006, 03:49:21 PM »
sorry bout that last one jeff... i posted like simultaneously with u haha.. i will delte it and start something new cuz this kid is whacko
--------------------
"2 Hours Sleep + A Couple Beers = Good Bowling"
Sherman
Mason Sherman
Hammer Regional Staff
Vise Regional Staff
www.hammerbowling.com
www.viseinserts.com
www.facebook.com/mason.sherman

jbtsouthwest

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2006, 03:57:29 PM »

...but wait, there's more!


Jr Bowlr, I'm gonna get burned out after 20 years?!?  Give me 50 at least dude, lol!!!

... I missed your last post. We will always have qualifying then matchplay.  I wish we had time for more matchplay (and more bowling in general for that amtter).  That's what makes the Main Event the "Main" Event, and teh other events the side stuff.  

... The re-entry system of taking random numbers was to prevent people from feeling it was necessary to be on line at 2 AM to guarantee a last chance spot, which nobody would want, and to ensure nobody cutting in line or holding spots, which was a big problem last year.

... Here's an out-of-the-box idea, work with me here.  Ok, no re-entries (except maybe last chance).  But if you want to bowl again to stay loose or to play in brackets or whatever, do it, but your scores will not count for main event, only your first entry will.  Instead, half of the prize fund for the re-entry goes to a separate 'second chance tournament' prize list.  So, people that are there to bowl non-stop can get their kicks, while not affecting the outcome of teh Main portion of teh tournament (even though you're adding to teh prize fund)!!!

OOO... I like that one sorta... let me know about that!!!

Thanks,
Jeff
 

... PS as much as I appreciate all the feedback, I think the re-entry talk is getting way too much press for a pretty small problem.... other feedback?

ShermDawg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Nothing Hits Like A Hammer
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2006, 04:00:35 PM »
i believe one thing format wise that could make the tourney a bit more competitive in matchplay, (if this has already been said im sorry for repeating) to have possible different matchplay times.. like have the matchplay and finals of the girls and boys together or of the girls and handicap together and the boys seperate kinda thing... i think matchplay would be more competitive and intense if its one match on a pair rather than 3 matches on a pair... just an idea if its possible  

there a lot of different ideas to toy with
--------------------
"2 Hours Sleep + A Couple Beers = Good Bowling"
Sherman
Mason Sherman
Hammer Regional Staff
Vise Regional Staff
www.hammerbowling.com
www.viseinserts.com
www.facebook.com/mason.sherman

jbtsouthwest

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2006, 04:04:00 PM »

...completely a time thing on that one, Mason.  We'd love to do that, but there's simply not enough time to lay it out that way.  Dang.

Thanks,
Jeff

ShermDawg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Nothing Hits Like A Hammer
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2006, 04:06:51 PM »
gosh that would be so awesome to be able to do that... maybe an idea

have the first squad of the tourney be on christmas night like the first squad of wipeout is.... have the last chance squad on the 28th after themorning squad and start matchplay earlier than 930 or something... possibility who knows... i just think thatd be a great idea because matchplay would become way more competitive being truly head to head
--------------------
"2 Hours Sleep + A Couple Beers = Good Bowling"
Sherman
Mason Sherman
Hammer Regional Staff
Vise Regional Staff
www.hammerbowling.com
www.viseinserts.com
www.facebook.com/mason.sherman

Silencer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 822
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2006, 04:10:10 PM »
Jeff...another idea for the whole re entry thing, is you could make it there is 4 squads, everyone is allowed one squad, you take the top 50-60 bowlers. Then have a last chance for whoever wants to bowl...BUT if it's a bowler that is in cut that wants to improve their scores...then they have to basically throw away their first set and start basically fresh and you would take one extra spot in the last chance...and also to bump up the money, lets say someone bowled squad 2 and did good, and wants to re enter for bracket purposes, like how Dean said he did earlier...You could charge like 40 bucks or something and their scores won't count for the main tournament but strictly for brackets...just more ideas
--------------------
And Then...........

I left another 10 pin
And Then...........

I left another 10 pin

J-Rad Lawrence

Silencer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 822
Re: Las Vegas Main Event and $30,000+ in scholarships two weeks away!
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2006, 04:27:42 PM »
Interesting fact about the re entries is that 5 of the top 10 bowlers re entered and thats not including Dean or Andrew for brackett purposes...BUT they were 6-10 spots (the re entries) Re entrys can be used to anyone's benifet as long as they are there, so you might as well take advantage of them..Valmonte who finished 10th was like 35 over after first set but knew he could bowl better so he re entered and went like 140 over..and I am assuming Cy did the same thing...and the difference they made up in pins, about 100 each made them each alot more money later on, more power to them.
--------------------
And Then...........

I left another 10 pin
And Then...........

I left another 10 pin

J-Rad Lawrence