win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?  (Read 28548 times)

mumzie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6914
Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« on: December 21, 2003, 05:39:48 AM »
I get soooo confused - pin in or out cg in, or kicked. PAP, 4x8, etc.

Is there one place to go that would have all the info?

Pin in means blah. Causes the ball to do this...
Pin out means blah blah. Causes the ball to do that.
CG in means...
CG out means...
How to measure PAP?
Where to put a weight hole for different effects

And so on.
I can figure out that one layout does something different than another (duh), but when someone asks me how I want a ball laid out, I don't have a clue where to start.
When would I ask for a pin in ball? pin out? more top weight? less?

You get the idea.
------------------------
www.Shirts4Bowling.com
We Know What Bowlers Want

Home of the HAMBONE shirt!

 

pjr300

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1487
  • Live from the Bowling Capital of the World!
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2004, 07:50:48 PM »

All very good stuff! Thanks for keeping the effort going here...

--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
pjr300
Specs and Transaction history in my profile...

pjr300

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1487
  • Live from the Bowling Capital of the World!
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2004, 11:11:36 AM »

Hey LL, hope all is well. Just wondering... any new installments on the horizon?


--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
pjr300
Specs and Transaction history in my profile...

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2004, 11:21:59 AM »
I"ve really fallen down and can't get up!

I want to finish this but haven't been getting up at 5:00 and doing it!

I will soon!

I've got some good ideas here that can help and owe to finish it!

REgards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

Nodsleinad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2004, 11:23:52 AM »
T-God apparently knows it all....

Nod
LTBOCSFM

JohnP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5819
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2004, 11:35:25 AM »
Am I losing it or have we lost many of the posts on this thread?  I thought it was over 3 pages, but now just show one page and no posts between 1/31 and 2/12.  What happened?  --  JohnP

Badger856

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2004, 11:46:55 AM »
Hey LL
I was wondering after reading your comments on the diff. between 45 and 75 degrees on tough conditions (sport, tour....) and how the 75 degrees is not a good choice.  Would you drill two of the same balls with one being 75 and one being 45 or better yet go with one at 75 and a different ball, maybe one of less aggresive nature for the 45 drill pattern?

Strider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6754
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2004, 12:46:20 PM »
John, to see all the replies set your preferences to at least 60 days.  The default is only 7.  The post was started on 12/21/03.
--------------------
Penn State Proud

JohnP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5819
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2004, 09:14:18 PM »
Strider -- Thanks, I had my preferences set for 30 days.  Changed it to 60 and I think I have it all back now.  Don't want to lose any of this one!  --  JohnP

Strider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6754
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2004, 01:41:11 AM »
I've been copying/pasting the whole thing into a Word document.  I want to keep it handy in a slightly more compact version.
--------------------
Penn State Proud

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2004, 08:13:18 AM »
Very nice comments!

More late tonight!

REgards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

pjr300

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1487
  • Live from the Bowling Capital of the World!
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2004, 09:33:38 AM »

hey, I've also put them into a Word doc as well. I've also spent a ton of time formatting and editing.. at some time, maybe add illustrations too. If Lucky Lefty is OK with it, I'd like to post it here as "Lucky Lefty's Book of Ball Layout Basics" or something like that.

--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
pjr300
Specs and Transaction history in my profile...

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2004, 01:42:10 AM »
I haven't been real good about answering questions in the lengthy post but I'll digress for a moment.

45 degree drillings work in a way for some bowlers.  The ones it is the worst for usually are up the backers.  It just doesn't give the backend they usually need.  It is a wonderful drill for side rollers and up the backers.  It works great when one has head oil and wants less backend!  It's telltale sign that it is not going to work is that it starts leaving weak corner pins, indicative of being too much on the 3 pin for righties and too much on the 2 pin for lefties.

It will scream at you loud and clear in warmups!  "Don't throw me" it says to the lefty, "I'm leaving 7 pins even when you hit the pocket".  To the Righty it says, "I may hit the pocket but I will not strike", "I'm going to hit not quite high enough but leave a lot of your friend the 10 pin up".

To digress even more also the 45 degree drilling is more likely to not carry on a particle than it is on a reactive.  A reactive being able to generate more backend than a particle.  Denny Torgenson a occassional guru on this site has often mentioned that a 12:00 oclock drilling on a particle (75 degrees) is similar to a 45 degree drilling on a reactive(I think it was he that said that and if it wasn't it was ME!).  Of course this in the early days of particles and I believe with their expertise in blending in particles these days this statement is becoming less true.  Particles do seem to have more backend than when first introduced.

Note also that I have found that a 60 degree works on many conditions for me!
Agreed also if you have a ball that is strong enough to hit for you (I tend to use strong angular producing cores) with my a 45 degree drilling having the same ball in 75 is probably not a bad idea.

I can't imagine a 75 degree drilling working on a world team challenge or sport condition too often unless the ball is smooth to begin with or if the ball has a deep weighthole on the pap.(Balls I have successfully used on World Team challenge shot with longer oil(Crimson Sledgehammer with a 45 and deep weighthole on pap) and on a shorter tour style(harsh transition no buff at back) type sport shot was a 75 degree Ti Hawk with a deep weighhole on PAP!!!
Yumm Yummm!!!!

REgards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2004, 02:27:29 AM »
OK,

Now let's see if we can make some headway.

Quickly to reemphasize some points.

Up the backers creat early read and midlane.  They often lack backend and need their drilling to assist them.  Pin outs and pinups work wonders for them!
To these guys surface is almost everything also!  There greatest difficulty is carrying from inside! Yet they can hit the pocket!

Side rollers and low trackers have lots of skid. The side roller and low tracker usually have less speed and they are looking for their drillings to supply midlane, earlier read and often a slight muting of their backend.
These guys see surface as important but lower it's importance in the hole scheme of things compared to Mr. Up the backer!

45 degree rollers, these guys can do it all and use all drillings.  To adjust their roll they can use all 3 basic positions if the lanes call for it!
Their biggest problem is they are so versatile!  Anyone ever hear of a guy named Chris Barnes!  Lot's of choices!

Now let's talk about our SIDE ROLLERS and Lower trackers.

These guys can really use some drilling help.

Often these guys are going to be using some sort of 75(stacked) to less degree drilling(as low as 25 degrees if a low tracker, and as low as about 35 if a high tracking side roller).
Guys remember these low degree drillings are measured pap to pin line and pin to cg, or mass bias if present.  A 45 degree drilling has the cg kicked out towards the pap and is called a 10:30 drilling for a righty!  Designations such as 4 X 2, 5 X 3, 5 1/2 X 4, 3 3/8 X 1 1/2 are all close to a 45 degree drilling.
Notation means pin to pap X cg to pap.

These kicked out drillings are going to have early rev, great midlane and then just a roll to the pocket, they are called hook set!!!

In general as lanes have continued to get oilier or seem it as oils seem to be more viscous and durable since the introduction of particle balls in the late 90s!  (You see particles just killed shorter high volume patterns as they blended over under!)  The only way to beat them was by applying longer more viscous and durable oils to the lanes and also flattening the pattern out!
Otherwise every house in America would have someone averaging 250.

Anyway given this phenomena I have found that less often the 45 degree drill is needed unless one is on a tour or sport condition pattern. It just doesn't quite supply the horsepower(ie get one high enough on the pocket to carry)

Most of the leagues I've seen on the left in the last few years are frankly just wetter and longer!

What to do(note the 45s are still great for that hard transition shot at the back that the proprietors put out when you travel to their tournament).  After all it's fun to try to make you look like a fool!!!!

Here's the solutions I've found for this shot.
1. Instead of drilling 45, with these longer patterns 60 degrees(designations for 60 degrees would be 4 X 3, 4 1/4 X3 3/8, 4 1/2 X 3 1/2, 5 X 4) works great!
2. Instead of kicking out at all.  Either kick out very little or leave stacked and move the cg down!!!!!  While using a larger pin out!!!!!

I believe number 2 is very important right here!
For me on the left it has opened a virtual pandoras box of possibilities that excite me!!!

Let's just review
4 different setups that are all different and only basically involve pin out distances! All drillings are stacked(because almost all bowlers can use these on some conditions with only the side roller loosing some control as these often don't supply him with the midlane control he needs, but we'll solve that here!!!)

1.  Short pin

I'm going to stop here at this pregnant point and rest my old lazy bones as it is after 3:00am and if you knew me you'd know I'd need my beauty sleep!

To be continued! I will finish this drilling pattern section tomorrow night!
And then our final stop weightholes!!

Lucky
Lefty

Edited on 2/14/2004 10:28 PM
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2004, 10:30:55 PM »
Ok, four or five different pin setups.  All drillings are 75 degree and let's assume a pin position of 4 1/4 pin to pap, and a PAP of about 5 1/4 up 1/8.

1. Short pin Standard

F_F  
......P

gc...cg


T

This setup is very standard if one has a pin in ball and reacts as discussed before Very even and somewhat earlier, basically somewhat muting the reaction one would expect from any core, essentially taking away some of the potential of the ball to turn the corner if playing inside.  If it is a high powered core it makes it less, if it is a weak core it makes it less also.

2.  Pin out standard
-----P
F-F


gc--cg



T

This drilling is fantastic for the up the backer, particularly the righty up the backer(dryer heads). (I have seen this drilling on some of Walter Ray's stuff).  This drilling will get thru the heads better have less midlane and really give all the horsepower the core has to turn the corner.
Mo Pinel mentions to put the pin about 1 to 1 1/2 inches from the VAL for this Flip leverage drilling!  

I have seen a good friend(high speed up the backer) use this drilling to shoot his only two 800s.  He then forgets or whatever gets away from this drilling and spends a lot of his non bowling time saying he can't get the ball to come around the corner in late games.  Oh well!

However, this drilling if frequently death to the lefty(wetter heads) (particularly the side roller, more skid than up the backer) as he can never get this thing to start it's move early enough.  It also seems to have what I would call a higher dispersion pattern around the breakpoint!  Mistakes for the side roller and lefty with this drilling are magnified!  Carry is great when the pocket can be found(if this drilling is needed) Usually some sort of sloppier backend where the pin in or pin under the ring finger will not turn the corner enough.

How does the lefty or sideroller solve the problem of this drill and get the same results as the up the backer righty and improve his carry on sloppy backends.

Voila!!!!!!!

3. Pin out(3 to 4) CG DOWN!!!!!

This looks like this!!
-----P
F-F


gc
----cg


T

Voila this is the answer for many problems side roll, left or right and sloppy long midlanes with sloppier backends.

Taken as a variation from the Classic Revs leverage drilling(where the pin and cg are equal distances from the grip center north south equator.  Pin up equal to the amount the cg is down). Ebonite drill sheet for symmetrical cores, I'll supply the website on an edit.

Bottom line is the ball will react on the wetter left very similarly to the standard pin up drilling #2 above.  I have found this is an incredible drilling for me on the left.  Now giving me midlane, reducing dispersion at the breakpoint and also retaining the cores built in ability to turn the corner!
This drilling or a slight variation of the cg being out slightly (ie a 60 instead of a 75 degree) is a fantastic drilling for the difficult dreaded Pattern B of the tour!  Often combined with a weighthole of reaction increasing strength(that section coming soon)

Note I've seen a lot of balls coming in from the tour over the last few years.
From a fairly well known player and his drillings are often of the 60 degree version of this drilling very often with the pin only level with the fingers.
As he says"key to the tour is control of the midlane".

Note this drilling in the stacked version is probably very inappropriate for a sport condition, or hard buffer short pattern as the stacked portion will probably make the ball jump too hard!!!

OH, VERY Important!!!  How do we know a stacked drilling is not the answer!
Just like the cg kicked out drillings leave WEAK 7s.  These drillings when wrong will with particles often look when flush like they are going to leave a 4 -9 for the righty(6 - 8 for the lefty).  (they will with particles very quickly leave these beauties staring right at ya! Also when they hit the pocket and are wrong it will almost seem like they are going to be flush and sort of are but they mostly hit the head pin and almost barely eventually deflect in to the side pin(3 for righties), (2pin for lefties).  Also they will just before leaving the lovely 4 -9 give one a warning by striking but by kicking the 4 pin out back at ya!  Slowly to boot!  You've been warned!!!!  Mayday Mayday go to a more muted reaction drilling or risk being beaten by Luckylefty(he's switched already!)

4.  The Pin up moderate pin out(2 to 3 pin) drilling.

-----P
F-F

-----cg
gc



T

This drilling is a staple of righthanded up the backers everwhere there are drying heads and wetter backends.  This sucker is great!  It is on the other hand death to the strong side roller either side (Usually) and is almost never seen on the left!!!

On the left we call this drilling.  Dial a 7, (Ring Ring) "He's not your friend". I also call this on the left a high testosterone drilling, it looks so exciting, but only knocks down 9!Or we could call it, "I want to win a no tap tourney with the fewest real strikes!!!

These were some little ideas to help understand the effect of pin outs coupled with cg positions up or down.

Next TIME - I'll delve a little more in depth on, cg up or downs coupled with cg in or outs.  
REMEMBER the key to this cg or mass bias thing(if a mass bias ball) is that it's all about midlane, do the lanes require you add or take away some, or does your release already supply it?

Final section after the above will be on weightholes!!!

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS I'm going to rest now so that I can watch someone shoot an Odor Eatin 300 on TV tomorrow on pattern E.

With a drilling that may look like this.
Pin in 1 1/2 to 2.

-F-F
---P

cg
_gc


-T

Ball will probably be fairly weak cored
Diff of ..3X.

We'll see.

Luckylefty


 



Edited on 2/14/2004 11:41 PM
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

pjr300

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1487
  • Live from the Bowling Capital of the World!
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2004, 07:13:20 AM »

Another fine addition! thx!

--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
pjr300
Specs and Transaction history in my profile...