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Author Topic: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE  (Read 5102 times)

JessN16

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MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« on: December 23, 2008, 03:29:02 PM »
For a bowler like myself (tweener, PAP 4 over 3/8 up), I have a question.

Roto Grip Epic Saga, static weights are typical. Ball is currently drilled pin-over-ring, which is about 4 inches away from the PAP, and there's a weight hole on the PAP (an experiment that seems to have helped).

The MB is track side of the thumb, about 6:30 or 7 o'clock.

Unless I sand the ball down to 1000 Abralon, it will not read the lane -- ANY lane. Conditions are almost irrelevant. And I didn't buy this ball to use at 1000 Abralon. At that level, it gives me a continuous arc shape, but is much too early to be usable.

Ball revs up very nicely. Carries well when I can get it in the pocket (which is about twice per game if I'm lucky). The rest of the time, it's over/under city. I've tried every surface prep from 1000 Abralon up, polished and not.

Initially, the ball did not appear to be flaring very much. I can't remember exactly why I drilled the weight hole dead on my PAP, but I did, and it increased flare and helped with control somewhat. But it only really advanced things from a 1 to a 2 on a scale of 1-10.

What would you suggest I try before giving up? I'm open to plugging the whole ball if necessary. What I was gunning for when I got this was a ball with a strong roll, controlled move to the pocket and enough energy stored for good carry. I didn't want the ball to go all stupid in the backend, and I don't need help hooking the ball. But right now, it's a liability.

The reason I phrased this as a MB question is that the only time I've gone track side with the MB is when I'm drilling a label drill on a ball made by Lane #1, and I've yet to have a problem with their stuff. This is the first strong assym and/or Storm/Roto ball I've drilled with a track-side MB.

Jess

Edited on 12/24/2008 0:30 AM

Edited on 12/30/2008 10:26 PM
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hammermike2000

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2008, 11:46:50 PM »
Most of the time drilling the MB in the track (for normal trackers like yourself, which in your case puts the MB around 6-7 inches from your PAP) creates a very mild and lazy reaction in the backend.  Of course this can be affective for high rev players to calm down the reaction, but most of the time it can kill the backend reaction of a strong asymmetric ball.  I would plug and redrill...of course, its worth it to try polishing the ball over a low grit, such as 500 + polish, before going and plugging it.
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JessN16

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2008, 12:06:28 AM »
quote:
Most of the time drilling the MB in the track (for normal trackers like yourself, which in your case puts the MB around 6-7 inches from your PAP) creates a very mild and lazy reaction in the backend.  Of course this can be affective for high rev players to calm down the reaction, but most of the time it can kill the backend reaction of a strong asymmetric ball.  I would plug and redrill...of course, its worth it to try polishing the ball over a low grit, such as 500 + polish, before going and plugging it.
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Here's some polishes I have available to me:

1) Reaction Plus
2) Storm Reacta Shine
3) Storm Xtra Shine
4) Storm Moon Shine
5) Track Clean & Polish

Which would you suggest?

Jess
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hammermike2000

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2008, 12:36:13 AM »
I don't have much experience with a couple of those polishes, but I would go with the Storm Reacta Shine.  That would probably match up best with the storm-produced ball.
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mrbowlingnut

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2008, 01:00:12 AM »
I have two of this more of power stroker style have one drilled 5 pin to pap under ring finger and one pin next to ring finger 4 inch pin to pap. Have both balls with the mb right and below my thumb hole about 5 inch to pap.

What do i get???  Balls that have both massive mid lane and strong back end reaction, The pin under ring actually closer to bridge is very snappy in nature rolls more Stormish than Rotoish which for me is more rolly.

I think you made a MB mistake and it aint going to be fixed unless you redrill it, just opinion but the mb being basically gone with a super high to pap placement killed a great bowling ball.

That drilling most likely is the whole problem and not ball surface, I get about 5-6 inches of flare more on the pin under ball believe it or not but it has a lower weight hole.
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slashrr69

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2008, 01:46:21 AM »
jess
  hammermike has a good suggestion, I would try that first before plugging the whole ball.. take it to 800 grit(no water) and then put some track clean and polish on it.. try that first if this still does not give you a good reaction take it back to 800 grit and find some polish that has 2000 grit in it and put that ontop of the 800(no water).. make sure you are using a spinner for these applications..if that does not help you just might have to plug the ball.. slashrr69
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charlest

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2008, 09:20:38 AM »
quote:

I think you made a MB mistake and it aint going to be fixed unless you redrill it, just opinion but the mb being basically gone with a super high to pap placement killed a great bowling ball.

That drilling most likely is the whole problem and not ball surface, I get about 5-6 inches of flare more on the pin under ball believe it or not but it has a lower weight hole.


I agree with Barry 110% on this one.
I've watched Mark Curran (a regular RG poster here) use his Saga many times. Although this is a solid/pearl combo (actually, according to RG, "1 part solid and 2 parts pearl"), it acts much more like a pearl.

Both your pin position and the MB position seem more than a little wrong, especially based on the evidence of your eyes. I would seriously consider redrilling this ball, as you've already said that no surface change has made any difference other than 1000 Abralon, which is roughly equal to 600 grit US, which is really a surface for heavy oil.

Please consider putting the pin just below the center of your bridge (about 4" pin to PAP) and putting the MB 1-2" to the right of your thumb hole.

Regarding surfaces, you can try 1000 Abralon (again, ~600 grit US) + a light, hand application of a polish like Reacta Shine or Snake Oil and any skid/snap, over/under ball. You can always add more polish, if needed, but you run the risk of passing by the surface you need.

May I ask why this drilling was considered for your release and this ball's design?
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jbuzz31

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2008, 11:13:40 AM »
why not try a low grit compound on low grit.  like 500 sanded hit with valentino's resurrection or something similiar
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A_P_K

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2008, 11:18:55 AM »
I'll side with Barry and Jeff on this one...

When I had my Saga I had the MB right of my thumb and slightly below, around the 4" or 55 degree mark.

For me the Saga had a decent midlane read but was flippy almost to the point of unpredictable and uncontrollable for my style.
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JessN16

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2008, 12:57:24 PM »
quote:

May I ask why this drilling was considered for your release and this ball's design?
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."


I wanted to try something different and got the ball for $40 NIB, basically. I didn't have a lot invested in it.

As to why I picked that MB position, it was because I had a lot of assyms already with the MB in the position everyone is telling me to put it. As for pin, I really like pin-up placements on Storm/Roto assymetrical cores.

I wanted to create something very smooth, because my current house, at times, has lanes that are almost uncontrollable in the backend and the back part of the midlane area. I apparently went too far the other direction.

Jess
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charlest

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2008, 01:57:24 PM »
I get the picture, Jess.

The problem I believe with that idea is it's doesn't seem to have mixed correctly with this ball to create that ball reaction. High + long pins on flippy balls tend to exacerbate their basic reaction, making them unpredictable. I think you can still get that reaction, but that is not the designed in reaction for this ball. It may be counter-productive to try to force this ball to be that way.

WHat you could do if you wish to pursue that reaction is to try a Rico-type drilling. I say "type" because you may not wind up with exactly what a Rico looks like. I think you still need a 4.5"- 5" pin distance but you probably need to put the pin below the level of the bridge, maybe as far as the center of the grip. The MB definitely needs to be to the PAP side of the thumb hole, maybe even further than I first suggested. On a true Rico, it would be on or near the VAL. Oh, I'd also recommend a fine, matte surface, maybe 2000 grit Abralon, at least to start with, if you decide on a Rico-type of drilling.

Good luck.

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Dan Belcher

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2008, 05:00:08 PM »
quote:
WHat you could do if you wish to pursue that reaction is to try a Rico-type drilling. I say "type" because you may not wind up with exactly what a Rico looks like. I think you still need a 4.5"- 5" pin distance but you probably need to put the pin below the level of the bridge, maybe as far as the center of the grip. The MB definitely needs to be to the PAP side of the thumb hole, maybe even further than I first suggested. On a true Rico, it would be on or near the VAL. Oh, I'd also recommend a fine, matte surface, maybe 2000 grit Abralon, at least to start with, if you decide on a Rico-type of drilling.
This sounds similar to what I did with my Cell.  Pin is about 5.5" from my PAP, under the middle finger, MB somewhere around 4" from PAP.  No x-hole.  This ball is my get-out-of-jail-free card.  When the lanes get funky, when I don't have any look, this thing is guaranteed to get me at least near the pocket and give me decent carry.  It's smooth off the friction, but generates decent entry angle.  It's great for when the backends are flying, like on a fresh PBA Experience pattern, etc.
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JessN16

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2008, 05:57:50 PM »
charlest and Dan,

One thing I should add -- I have a Track Strike Machine drilled similar to the way Dan's ball is described (pin under middle, MB at around 4 o'clock to the thumb, about 3 inches to the PAP and beyond the VAL) and with a lot of polish on the ball.

That thing FLIES and is too much for me a lot of the times. It tends to move a lot more in the mids than I'd expect, but I do notice the backend is smoother than some.

I don't know if it's the polish or the shorter inch to the PAP, but it really comes hard toward the end of the lane. And I would think a Saga and a Strike Machine (basically a Power Machine, I'd guess) are similar balls.

Jess
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Dan Belcher

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2008, 06:31:35 PM »
quote:
charlest and Dan,

One thing I should add -- I have a Track Strike Machine drilled similar to the way Dan's ball is described (pin under middle, MB at around 4 o'clock to the thumb, about 3 inches to the PAP and beyond the VAL) and with a lot of polish on the ball.

That thing FLIES and is too much for me a lot of the times. It tends to move a lot more in the mids than I'd expect, but I do notice the backend is smoother than some.

I don't know if it's the polish or the shorter inch to the PAP, but it really comes hard toward the end of the lane. And I would think a Saga and a Strike Machine (basically a Power Machine, I'd guess) are similar balls.

Jess
Bear in mind your PAP is different than mine -- mine is 5 1/4" over by 3/4" up, so mine is a weaker drilling than yours is.  Also, I keep mine at either 2000 abralon for higher volume shots, or very lightly polished for medium conditions.
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mrbowlingnut

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Re: MB placement question on a Roto Grip Epic Saga...UPDATE
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2008, 11:19:12 AM »
I think pin high meaning over the fingers about 6 inch pap area, cg in the mid grip area and MB past the VAL about 1 inch would give you what you were looking for for.

I have tried this drilling on a Track Robo Rule and Ebonite Killer Instinct it will be smooth as a babies behind and just smoothly hook the entire lane. Yes it would need some surface or never read trying this method out.

Btw add a low weight hole not needed for statics but needed to get the core kicking in early enough to produce the movement you are looking for.

I also recommend this drilling on Symmetric's with over .050 diff with strong covers like an Action I have done this on. Some cheap Ebay ball is the best ball or something that is a dud for you with strong drilling is another option.
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