Author Topic: Onyx layout questions (Read 4110 times)

Gene J Kanak · « **on:** May 28, 2009, 05:59:23 AM »

Good day,

I just placed an order for two NIB Onyx Vibes because I think they have the potential to be very good balls for me at nationals; however, I'm trying to decide how best to lay them out to give me the separation and difference in shot shape I'm looking for.

First off, I'm a RH two-handed player. As such, my speed and revs are in the above average range. Here is the 6-ball lineup I'm thinking of bringing to the open championships:

Virtual Gravity (2000 abralon)
Black Widow Bite (4000 abralon)
Onyx 1
Onyx 2
Chainsaw Massacre (box)
Tuff

The Onyx is supposed to provide a firm grip of the midlane and strong, continuous backend. What I want is for Onyx 1 to be a medium condition benchmark piece, one that grabs the midlane quickly and offers a very mellow reaction down the lane. Ideally, Onyx 2 will go a little bit longer and offer a slightly quicker response. I don't want it flippy by any means, just a tad quicker off the spot.

If I can set those two up as indicated, I think it will give me a nice, even degree of stepdown throughout my arsenal. The question is how do I lay them out and/or prep them to get the reactions I'm seeking?

My first incling was to drill them the same and simply knock the factory shine off of Onyx 1. Logic would tell me that would make it read earlier and be smoother, but will that create enough difference to make it worthwhile? Even if I prep them that way, should I use different drillings to increase the difference between the two? Don't get me wrong. I want them to be somewhat close in reaction, but I don't want them to be too close. That is why I'm asking for help from the drilling experts among you. Let me know what you think, and I'll be forever grateful. Thanks!
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Bowling bad since 1979 with no end in sight

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makpa · « **Reply #1 on:** May 28, 2009, 04:34:24 PM »

Not the big hammer guy. but they look pretty nice. if i were you i would put the first at 4Â½ from axis. and pin under. maybe knock the shine off lightly by hand with a 2000 og 1000. second i would put 5-5Â½ above fingers keep in box finish.

chitown · « **Reply #2 on:** May 28, 2009, 11:45:50 PM »

Gene, my suggestion is to pick your favorite length/backend layout. I would also drill both balls with the SAME exact layout and dull the cover on one of them. This will give you a similar motion but one will handle more oil.

I for one am a big believer in using the same layout on multiple bowling balls in an arsenal. Just let the cover and cores separate the reactions. I have had my best success building an arsenal this way. For a 6 ball arsenal, 4 balls will have the same exact layout.

The best two ball combo I've ever had were 2 Blue Vibes. Both BV's were drilled with the same exact layout but different cover grits (one polished the other 1000 grit).

Gene J Kanak · « **Reply #3 on:** May 29, 2009, 08:00:41 AM »

Chitown,

I, too, have seen the virtue in drilling balls the same and allowing cover/cores to dictate reaction differences, I'm with you there. I'm a bit curious about your suggestions to pick my favorite length/backend drilling. As I said, I want at least one of these two to read quickly and be very tame on the backend. Are you saying that cover prep alone will promote that reaction in comparison to the second Vibe, which I want to get more length and provide more pop?
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Bowling bad since 1979 with no end in sight

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Gazoo · « **Reply #4 on:** May 29, 2009, 08:47:57 AM »

I think whats being stated here is that by dulling the surface of one of your Vibes with both having the same drill, the dull one will read the lane earlier, the backend will be smoother and it will handle a higher volume of oil. The overall ball motion will be similar as opposed to one being skip/snap and one being arc. I also found this to be true with the Blue Vibe.
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"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"

chitown · « **Reply #5 on:** May 30, 2009, 12:06:08 AM »

quote:
I think whats being stated here is that by dulling the surface of one of your Vibes with both having the same drill, the dull one will read the lane earlier, the backend will be smoother and it will handle a higher volume of oil. The overall ball motion will be similar as opposed to one being skip/snap and one being arc. I also found this to be true with the Blue Vibe.
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"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"

Exactly!

In response to Gene's reply: Gene, if your looking for a drastic reaction difference then choosing a completely different layout is probably your best bet.

The above posters reply is spot on with what I was saying in my reply.

ToiletLogCore · « **Reply #6 on:** May 30, 2009, 12:18:13 AM »

Riiiiiiiiiiight lets take a ball that not many have thrown yet, buy 2 and ask for layout suggestions on a website full of people that have never seen you bowl, for you to take to nationals.... Maybe you should ask someone to also throw the ball for you

Edited on 5/30/2009 0:19 AM

chitown · « **Reply #7 on:** May 30, 2009, 12:24:23 AM »

quote:
Chitown,

I, too, have seen the virtue in drilling balls the same and allowing cover/cores to dictate reaction differences, I'm with you there. I'm a bit curious about your suggestions to pick my favorite length/backend drilling. As I said, I want at least one of these two to read quickly and be very tame on the backend. Are you saying that cover prep alone will promote that reaction in comparison to the second Vibe, which I want to get more length and provide more pop?
--------------------
Bowling bad since 1979 with no end in sight

http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=519&suffix=9130

Gene, keep in mind that my philosophy is probably different than the majority of bowlers out their. I prefer to use my favorite layout on most of my equipment and just let the cover and cores separate the reactions.

The length/backend layout is my favorite because it's easy to manipulate with cover changes. I have found that the length/backend layout works very well with dull surface adjustments. It allows the ball to read the lane early because of the dull surface but maintain carry power (not burn up) because of the layout.

I've had much less success using early rolling layouts with dull surfaces. For me a ball drilled early and having a dull surface tend to hit and carry like crap because the ball burns up too much. The early rolling layout combined with a dull surface tends to bleed a lot of energy which tends to leave corner pins on good pocket hits. At least that's my experience with my game.

Gene keep in mind that my suggestions are based on my experiences with my game. I know what works for me may or may not work for others. I hope this info helps with your decision.

chitown · « **Reply #8 on:** May 30, 2009, 12:27:25 AM »

quote:
Riiiiiiiiiiight lets take a ball that not many have thrown yet, buy 2 and ask for layout suggestions on a website full of people that have never seen you bowl, for you to take to nationals.... Maybe you should ask someone to also throw the ball for you

Edited on 5/30/2009 0:19 AM

I understand what your saying. However, it doesn't matter that we have not seen the ball in action or that we haven't seen him roll a ball. What were basically discussing is layout theory.

azguy · « **Reply #9 on:** May 30, 2009, 07:39:52 AM »

For me, I only have 2 layouts I use. I found that as chi says, let the core and cover make the difference. It may be a small difference as well but the final grit line direction will also make a difference. For more length, go with your track. Earlier, against it. With the covers at different grits, direction of final lines, you'll see a difference. It may not be as much as you want but that's a 'final touch' that only you know what you are looking for.

My reasoning is with the same layouts, you know what the 'other ball' can do when you see the one you are using is not making the turn or turning to early. IMO cover/core combo makes more difference in reaction than does (many) layouts.

JMO
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az guy aka: R & L Bowlers Pro
rlbowlerspro@cox.net

radioman1 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 31, 2009, 06:16:39 PM »

I have drilled only one of my Vibes so far. I drilled it pin down at 40 degrees the ball has no problem reading the lane from what I can tell so far. I didn't use it on any long patterns of heavy volumes like the scorpion or shark. I did use it on the Viper but it seemed to play a little dryer than normal but it could have been the surface of the lanes being AMF synthetic. It rolls up pretty early in the midlane and has a nice arc off the spot. I wouldn't say it is snappy at all.

Ken Schneider
Hammer Staff
PBA Member
Vise Staff

bluerrpilot · « **Reply #11 on:** May 31, 2009, 08:26:33 PM »

quote:
quote:
Riiiiiiiiiiight lets take a ball that not many have thrown yet, buy 2 and ask for layout suggestions on a website full of people that have never seen you bowl, for you to take to nationals.... Maybe you should ask someone to also throw the ball for you

Edited on 5/30/2009 0:19 AM

I understand what your saying. However, it doesn't matter that we have not seen the ball in action or that we haven't seen him roll a ball. What were basically discussing is layout theory.

How do you discuss a layout theory on a ball that for the most part nobody knows anything about. You might as well ask how to layout the new ball that Hammer is comming out with next year.

Quite frankly its getting annoying seeing all these lame reviews on stuff that some proshops cant even order for another 3 weeks. Not to mention that the reviews are generally usless figjams just to show that they have a new ball before anyone else.
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"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

cheech · « **Reply #12 on:** May 31, 2009, 09:27:25 PM »

seeing as this ball is 80% blue vibe (the only difference is a stronger vversion of the same cover) people can accurately predict how to lay the ball out. its not rocket science.

for black vibe 1 i would put the reacommended early rolling with controlled backend reaction layout on hammer's sight. i have it on my blue vibe and its very controllable smooth and doesnt overreact at all. and maybe take off the polish. the layout is a 2" pin-PAP for me

http://s719.photobucket.com/albums/ww196/twitch9_4off/bowling%20balls/?action=view¤t=0312092107.jpg

i would suggest, as other people said, you favorite long and strong drill for the other one.

mine is the classic pin above bridge with the CG slightly out. i think for me it is a 6" pin-PAP

http://s719.photobucket.com/albums/ww196/twitch9_4off/bowling%20balls/?action=view¤t=0312092110.jpg
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HG:300x2(SR300 both)
HS:792(SR300)
2004 NYSPHSAA team champions
2007 NYSPHSAA individual high game(300) and series(1411-6 games)
sacred heart university bowling, frosh.
greatest accomplishment:shooting 603 and not shooting one 200 game(130,173,300)...lol
balls for sale in my profile
p.s. go leftys

67tbird · « **Reply #13 on:** May 31, 2009, 09:29:16 PM »

quote:
How do you discuss a layout theory on a ball that for the most part nobody knows anything about. You might as well ask how to layout the new ball that Hammer is comming out with next year.

You really only need a general idea of the characteristics of a ball in order to lay it out. Expecially in Gene's case, where he's only asking for 2 different layouts for the same ball. And this obviously isn't some kind of figjam showing he has a new ball before anyone else.. he ordered it, just like anyone else can. They actually have them available already at the Hammer booth in Vegas.

For Gene

quote:
Onyx 1 to be a medium condition benchmark piece, one that grabs the midlane quickly and offers a very mellow reaction down the lane

30 x 3 3/8 x 60 (morich dual angle layout) - Heavy forward roll and gentler curve (should end up approzimately pin below ring, cg kicked out 35 degrees)

quote:
Onyx 2 will go a little bit longer and offer a slightly quicker response.

60 x 4 1/2 x 30 - A bit longer, arcing motion off the spot (should end up approximately cg in center of grip, pin to the right and slightly above center of ring finger)

Onyx #2 should pick up right where Onyx #1 leaves off. Neither one of these layouts is real skid-snap, but trust me, you don't want that at Nationals.

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League Averages
2005-2006 Youth League - 139
2006-2007 Youth League - 163
2007-2008 Mens League - 202
2008-2009 current average - 215

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Edited on 5/31/2009 9:35 PM

bluerrpilot · « **Reply #14 on:** May 31, 2009, 09:57:44 PM »

Obviously some are not seeing my point.

Its getting ridiculous to see reviews of a ball that has a worldwide release date of JULY 14th. I completly understand some staffers getting there stuff before other people do, but typically its 2-3 weeks not 6 to 8 weeks.

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"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

Author Topic: Onyx layout questions (Read 4110 times)

Gene J Kanak

Onyx layout questions

makpa

Re: Onyx layout questions

chitown

Re: Onyx layout questions

Gene J Kanak

Re: Onyx layout questions

Gazoo

Re: Onyx layout questions

chitown

Re: Onyx layout questions

ToiletLogCore

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chitown

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chitown

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azguy

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radioman1

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bluerrpilot

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cheech

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67tbird

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bluerrpilot

Re: Onyx layout questions