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Author Topic: A BrunsNick response...  (Read 13042 times)

BrunsNick

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A BrunsNick response...
« on: August 01, 2007, 06:33:05 PM »
In light of the recent topics, I have decided to provide a clean slate for a new discussion. The pointless jabbing and having my name called out was expected, and more often than not, comical.

First and foremost, the testing that Paul at USBC has performed is a great step in the right direction. He is a brilliant person to talk with, and an all around good guy. His information is without alterior motivation, never deviating from delivering pure and raw data to the general public. With that being said, the reason Paul, Brunswick, Lane #1 and myself used test balls with a radical variance in CG placement is to show the absolute maximum amount of difference in reaction.

Onward.

With the USBC test, two balls were used with over 2 1/2oz difference in sideweight, thrown by Harry, the robotic wonder. (thrown on a 53' flat pattern 17mph with 375RPMS) This would be considered a "Rev-Dominant" player. Now in this controlled experiment, Harry was able to find about a foot difference in actual breakpoint, with 4 feet of difference between the skid/roll phase. Along with that data, 2 boards of backend hook was found.

So what does this mean to me?

1. Roll does not equal hook.

A ball transitioning from skid to roll does not mean the ball is starting its hook phase. Chitown, you have outlandishly called me out in your thread (now deleted for whatever reason) without regard for the countless times in the past you have messaged me looking for information, layout help, etc. You have absolutely no merit, no first-hand knowledge and only know what you are spoon fed. You were quick to point out how 4 feet was such a gigantic and huge finding, yet, you don't quite understand what you're saying.

2. Two boards is not as much as it sounds over the course of 60 feet.

If you're using Harry set to 17mph/375rpm, who always repeats shots perfectly, using two rough bowling balls with over 2 1/2oz difference in side weight, 53' pattern in a controlled environment test and you only see 2 boards of difference, then how do you apply that to the human game with USBC specification? You can't, you can only theorize. I can give my own opinion on the results of another test, this time using more plausible CG placements in the current game. (i.e. - CG in palm vs CG "kicked" to give 3/4oz pos) USBC will post more findings, taking this into account.

3. Core orientation is not affected.

Notice the post-drilling numbers of the two balls. (nobody has yet to mention this) Not much of any measurable difference even with the radical swing in layouts. Maybe there would be absolutely zero difference if the two fingerholes were drilled to equal depth, but once again, I am just theorizing.

To sum it up, does the CG matter?

Mathematically? Yes, Paul's data shows that.

Realistically? Not by any human. One would be better suited applying this overanalytical attitude to the mechanics and execution in their bowling game. CGNOMADDAH is a theory, and apparently, is one that makes sense to quite a few people. My CGNOMADDAH video has sparked the curiousity of our governing body, and that by itself is exciting! This will not be the end of CG testing, as confirmed by the USBC. I also intend to make an additional video on the subject, with different variables in place. Basically, the best anyone can do is make a decision based on their first hand experiences, and the information presented to them.

Thanks for reading.

--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-07
http://www.BrunsNick.com
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Edited on 8/2/2007 2:37 AM
Nick Smith
Digital Media Manager - Brunswick Bowling
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BAPSBill

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2007, 10:00:32 AM »
Why a 53' foot pattern?  Most of us only bowl on THS patterns that I seriously doubt go that far down the lane. Would a shorter pattern show the same results?

Not trying to start anything, just asking a question?  

Bill

justdale

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2007, 10:07:47 AM »
Although I have never met BrunsNick, I have often read his posts on this forum and had to think to myself, mmmmmmm maybe he knows more than I do. I have been around bowling for over 30 years and I have seen alot, I would think the same anout BrusRico, but I have met him, so. ok enough said about Rico.

BrunsNick, you go right on with your theories and I will be more than happy to listen.

For the rest of some of these people on here, well lets say I don't read alot of your stuff

KDawg77

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2007, 10:09:28 AM »
RRay, that's funny.

I was going to say "it's not germane or even Tito." I wonder who might have gotten that?
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Dan Belcher

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2007, 10:10:17 AM »
quote:
RRay, that's funny.

I was going to say "it's not germane or even Tito." I wonder who might have gotten that?

Brilliant.

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2007, 10:16:28 AM »
Quote:
I was going to say "it's not germane or even Tito." I wonder who might have gotten that?

Quote:
Brilliant.
__________________________________________________________________________


Yes, brilliant! And let's all be greatful that it wasn't HE who had the wardrobe malfunction.
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notclay

Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah


"He who dies with the most bowling balls is still dead."

justdale

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2007, 10:21:19 AM »
c'mon notclay, we know you wanted to see Justin Timberlake's malfunction

BrunsNick

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2007, 10:53:04 AM »
RRay, is your medulla oblangata kicked out to create imbalance?
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-07
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Nick Smith
Digital Media Manager - Brunswick Bowling
http://www.brunswickbowling.com
http://www.youtube.com/c/brunsnick

Tateman

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2007, 11:03:26 AM »
Well, with the whole argument I still stick to what i think.

If adjusting the cg gives me even a .000000001% chance better ball reaction, hitting power, etc then I shall take everything I can get

It has been interesting seeing both sides of the arguments, along with the videos
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Which will be the next?....

BOWL119

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2007, 11:09:11 AM »
Looks like another insightful post by Nick has gone horribly wrong.

Nick, sorry all your posts seem to come down to stupid bickering. Personally I look forward to all your posts. Though I may not agree with them, you explain yourself very well so as to enlighten people who do not understand. There have been things that I thought I knew about, then you would post and I would understand that I was worng in my way of thinking.

THANK YOU NICK...
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chitown

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2007, 11:09:53 AM »
quote:
Why a 53' foot pattern?  Most of us only bowl on THS patterns that I seriously doubt go that far down the lane. Would a shorter pattern show the same results?

Not trying to start anything, just asking a question?  

Bill


I would think the results would be magnified.  Maybe i'm wrong but that does seem likely.
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This fall it's Raw Hammer Time!

chitown

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2007, 11:22:08 AM »
quote:
I wish I could roll the ball accurately and consistently enough for it to make a difference to me.  I love these forums but so often they spin out of control!  I am a hotrodder and you wouldn't believe the way threads get off topic in that forum!

I absolutely love Brunsnick's site and find it funny and informative.  I have tried different ball manufacturers' equipment but always come back to Big B.  That sure doesn't mean that I don't admire and respect the way other guys can throw Storm, Hammer, etc.  I don't see many Lane #1 balls in my leagues here in Metro Detroit so I can't judge them.  What is this fued between Big B and Lane #1 all about anyway?  


Big B used to make the Lane #1 balls.  When Brunswick moved their ball making plant to Mexico, Lane #1 went elswhere to get their bowling balls made.

Brunswicks move to Mexico ticked off a lot of bowlers.
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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2007, 11:36:42 AM »
Quote

c'mon notclay, we know you wanted to see Justin Timberlake's malfunction
_________________________________________________________________________

"I don't think so, Tim."  (Al Boreland)

Hey, now that you're a staffer (again) for Columbia, let's experiment on each ball as it arrives... You're kind of like a robot, Mr. Bionic Back!


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notclay

Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah


"He who dies with the most bowling balls is still dead."

trash heap

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2007, 12:11:19 PM »
I was thinking the same question as Bill. Why just one pattern and why just one setting for the bowler?

Would it be different results if the oil was at 45, 40, or 35 feet?
What if the bowler was not rev dominant?

Just seems like there are so many variables.




Talkin' Trash!

JessN16

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2007, 12:16:10 PM »
quote:
quote:
Why a 53' foot pattern?  Most of us only bowl on THS patterns that I seriously doubt go that far down the lane. Would a shorter pattern show the same results?

Not trying to start anything, just asking a question?  

Bill


I would think the results would be magnified.  Maybe i'm wrong but that does seem likely.
--------------------
This fall it's Raw Hammer Time!


chitown,

I think you've got the right answer. If the robot is being used to eliminate variables from shot to shot, then the inverse should also be true -- inconsistent deliveries will magnify differences between the shots. We know this is true by watching a spray-baller try to hit the same mark over and over with the same ball; delivery breakdowns cause a variety of inaccuracies down lane.

If that's true, there should be more variance, not less, when this is applied to a human standard.

Regardless of whether that's true or not, the people seeking to minimize the robot's results are taking the wrong tact. No human can mimic the robot, and that doesn't just apply to the CG/NOCG argument. But we're already careful not to take that argument to extremes, because to do so would be to invalidate a whole list of ball-drilling techniques on the premise that humans can't throw it well enough to get consistent results.

I've been mostly quiet on this issue, too, because I just want the facts so I know what to do in the future. I don't have emotional or fiduciary ties to the argument. At this point, it's pretty clear to me that CG matters and I'll take that into account accordingly in the future.

Jess

justdale

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2007, 12:17:47 PM »
notclay, as Rick says "Hump"

I'm OK with throwing my stuff anyway you want, I just don't want you to throw my stuff, you create roll from the ball that no right hander shoud be able to do.

I'll throw mine and you throw yours and let the chips land where they must