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Author Topic: A BrunsNick response...  (Read 13043 times)

BrunsNick

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A BrunsNick response...
« on: August 01, 2007, 06:33:05 PM »
In light of the recent topics, I have decided to provide a clean slate for a new discussion. The pointless jabbing and having my name called out was expected, and more often than not, comical.

First and foremost, the testing that Paul at USBC has performed is a great step in the right direction. He is a brilliant person to talk with, and an all around good guy. His information is without alterior motivation, never deviating from delivering pure and raw data to the general public. With that being said, the reason Paul, Brunswick, Lane #1 and myself used test balls with a radical variance in CG placement is to show the absolute maximum amount of difference in reaction.

Onward.

With the USBC test, two balls were used with over 2 1/2oz difference in sideweight, thrown by Harry, the robotic wonder. (thrown on a 53' flat pattern 17mph with 375RPMS) This would be considered a "Rev-Dominant" player. Now in this controlled experiment, Harry was able to find about a foot difference in actual breakpoint, with 4 feet of difference between the skid/roll phase. Along with that data, 2 boards of backend hook was found.

So what does this mean to me?

1. Roll does not equal hook.

A ball transitioning from skid to roll does not mean the ball is starting its hook phase. Chitown, you have outlandishly called me out in your thread (now deleted for whatever reason) without regard for the countless times in the past you have messaged me looking for information, layout help, etc. You have absolutely no merit, no first-hand knowledge and only know what you are spoon fed. You were quick to point out how 4 feet was such a gigantic and huge finding, yet, you don't quite understand what you're saying.

2. Two boards is not as much as it sounds over the course of 60 feet.

If you're using Harry set to 17mph/375rpm, who always repeats shots perfectly, using two rough bowling balls with over 2 1/2oz difference in side weight, 53' pattern in a controlled environment test and you only see 2 boards of difference, then how do you apply that to the human game with USBC specification? You can't, you can only theorize. I can give my own opinion on the results of another test, this time using more plausible CG placements in the current game. (i.e. - CG in palm vs CG "kicked" to give 3/4oz pos) USBC will post more findings, taking this into account.

3. Core orientation is not affected.

Notice the post-drilling numbers of the two balls. (nobody has yet to mention this) Not much of any measurable difference even with the radical swing in layouts. Maybe there would be absolutely zero difference if the two fingerholes were drilled to equal depth, but once again, I am just theorizing.

To sum it up, does the CG matter?

Mathematically? Yes, Paul's data shows that.

Realistically? Not by any human. One would be better suited applying this overanalytical attitude to the mechanics and execution in their bowling game. CGNOMADDAH is a theory, and apparently, is one that makes sense to quite a few people. My CGNOMADDAH video has sparked the curiousity of our governing body, and that by itself is exciting! This will not be the end of CG testing, as confirmed by the USBC. I also intend to make an additional video on the subject, with different variables in place. Basically, the best anyone can do is make a decision based on their first hand experiences, and the information presented to them.

Thanks for reading.

--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-07
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
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Edited on 8/2/2007 2:37 AM
Nick Smith
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http://www.youtube.com/c/brunsnick

 

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2007, 12:25:50 PM »
quote:
notclay, as Rick says "Hump"

I'm OK with throwing my stuff anyway you want, I just don't want you to throw my stuff, you create roll from the ball that no right hander shoud be able to do.

I'll throw mine and you throw yours and let the chips land where they must

_________________________________________________________________________

I'm not sure if that's a compliment or not, but coming from you I will assume, NOT...  I struggled last night with a 917 (4 games) or something.  My new Blast Zone at 4000 abralon sure rolled nice.  There was a little issue called "bowler error" on several frames.


--------------------
notclay

Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah


"He who dies with the most bowling balls is still dead."

Edited on 8/2/2007 12:27 PM

Djarum

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2007, 12:35:56 PM »
And I thought the Bible threads were getting heated!

Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.

purduepaul

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2007, 12:47:14 PM »
A response to some of the questions:

A 53' pattern was used for a couple of reasons, its perfectly flat so as to accentuate what the ball actually does.  A longer, flatter pattern is better mathematically modeled than a typical house pattern due to a typical patterns, wet/dry dynamic.  Also the length is longer so that our test balls sanded to 1000 grit abralon like the wrath SFs were can complete its ball motion before 53 feet which sometimes happens and sometimes does not.

Regarding the fact of both balls being the same.  Before drilling both bowling balls, I took a sample of both to our Fourier Transfer Infrared Spectoscopy machine to see if they had the same chemical makeup they were 99.95% the same.  Our threshold for that currently on bowling balls is estimated at 99.2%.  They are the same ball.

Paul
"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy."  -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"

Urethane Game

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2007, 01:29:37 PM »
It really is a shame what this site has become.  Members like Brunsnick (and others) who are active and contribute to OUR community our bashed by gutless and nameless trolls who have nothing better to do than to take potshots at people.

Methinks that gold membership wasn't such a bad idea afterall.

leftehh- LG

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2007, 01:34:45 PM »
quote:
quote:
Why a 53' foot pattern?  Most of us only bowl on THS patterns that I seriously doubt go that far down the lane. Would a shorter pattern show the same results?

Not trying to start anything, just asking a question?  

Bill


I would think the results would be magnified.  Maybe i'm wrong but that does seem likely.
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This fall it's Raw Hammer Time!


seems likely, but u have no clue..
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Reynoso

JessN16

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2007, 02:23:17 PM »
quote:
quote:


Big B used to make the Lane #1 balls.  When Brunswick moved their ball making plant to Mexico, Lane #1 went elswhere to get their bowling balls made.

Brunswicks move to Mexico ticked off a lot of bowlers.


Please do not make posts you do not know about. This is a false statement.
--------------------
Ric Hamlin
Pacific Northwest Product Specialist
Brunswick Bowling


AKA "Rico" and L.I.M.O.M.


 Ric how do you know this is not a true statement? I don't remember a questionaire being sent out to get everyones thoughts on the move. Around the centers in this area it is a true statement.
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Speak the Truth


Nothing against Brunswick, but I was also confused by the statement about that post being non-factual. I'd like to know which part was unfactual; the only one I could see was the circumstances by which Lane #1 left Brunswick (i.e., was it Lane #1's decision or Brunswick's).

As far as the statement about some people being upset with the move to Mexico, that is very much true. My ball driller at the time was furious. For awhile, he didn't even want to carry Big B stuff in his shop. He wasn't the only one, either.

Maybe that decision didn't affect attitudes in other parts of the country, but where I lived at the time it was a big thing. Maybe the poster will clarify what he meant.

Jess

1MechEng

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2007, 02:44:29 PM »
PurduePaul -
Can you answer a couple of more questions about the testing:

1.) Do you know if the amount of CG difference has a linear effect on the test results (in terms of # of boards of movement)? E.g. - If 2.5oz. of CG difference makes 2 total boards of difference, does 1 oz. of CG difference make less than 1 board of difference between identical balls?

2.) Has testing been done at other revs./min. to determine if the effect of a combination of CG and ball rotation speed make a difference? By association, does CG placement make more of a difference to a high rev bowler vs. low rev?

3.) Were the paths of both test balls after the break point similar, or did they exhibit significantly different shapes? (Leading to the question as to whether or not the 53' pattern affected the results compared to a 35'-40' THS).

Thanks for (hopefully) indulging my requests for more information on the test results.

Regards -
--------------------
======================
Dan
======================
Engineering * Bowling = a fun and practical application of rotational kinematics.
Dan

purduepaul

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2007, 02:48:55 PM »
1MechEng Here are the answers to your questions

1) No we have no determined if the relationship between CG amount is linear with every other factor, again this is an initial tests, a full in depth test will be conducted in the beginning of 2008 after the ball motion study part II is completed.

2)  Again initial test with a more detailed test coming in the beginning of 2008.

3)  The shape of the hook region if you are reading the article is determined by the A value which is in table four.  Mathematically it is the A coefficent value of the binomal equation that defines the hook region.  Basically, the larger the a value the earlier and sharper the curve is.

Thanks for reading, brunsnick took some video at our facility today...should be interesting.

Paul
"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy."  -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"

Strapper_Squared

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2007, 02:59:20 PM »
Nick.. nice post.  I think that you just repeated the message that had been stated over and over and over and over...  The effects of statics are not great enough to matter when taking into account the variances (i.e. consistency) in speed, launch angle, rev rate, etc of most, if not all, bowlers.


As for this question...

quote:

If realistically humans can't tell the difference, then why do so many take it into consideration when they have their balls drilled?  Why do so many pro shops take it into consideration when drilling customers balls?  



Maybe the same reason why 75% of the bowlers who walk into our shop have a span that is too long... or why 75% of the shops in our local area have no clue what a PAP is, how to measure one, or how to use it in a layout.  The modern game is much different than that of 20 years ago.

S^2

 



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Crankenstein300

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2007, 03:10:07 PM »
What I believe Ric is trying to say is that the workings of the Brunswick/Lane 1 business deals and split are not something that should be spread around a bowling message board since to be honest, it's really none of our business as to the exact reasonings and decisions as to the split.

chitown

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2007, 03:16:34 PM »
quote:


Big B used to make the Lane #1 balls.  When Brunswick moved their ball making plant to Mexico, Lane #1 went elswhere to get their bowling balls made.

Brunswicks move to Mexico ticked off a lot of bowlers.


Please do not make posts you do not know about. This is a false statement.
--------------------
Ric Hamlin
Pacific Northwest Product Specialist
Brunswick Bowling


AKA "Rico" and L.I.M.O.M.


Ric did Brunswick move to Mexico?

Ric did Lane #1 leave brunswick?

Ric were bowlers ticked off by Brunswicks move to Mexico?

Yes, yes, yes!

How did I make false statements?  I'm not trying to fight and argue with you but please don't try and say i'm making false statements when there not.

Do I know or did I say why Lane #1 left Brunswick? No I didn't!
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This fall it's Raw Hammer Time!

chitown

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2007, 03:42:12 PM »
quote:
quote:
It is still to my amazement that some continue to argue with Rray.  How can you have a good technical bowling discussion with someone who averages 197 these days.  That's like really averaging 160.

Ric you are above that and you don't need to defend yourself against him.


And they call me an idiot? lol
Not that I care but 197 is like averaging 160? Care to explain that?
I don't think 197 is to bad being back only a year and a half from wrist surgery and two surgeries on my arm, after being off almost 2 years, lol.
And please explain what someones average has to do with their technical knowledge? Do you think every single person in the bowling industry is a bowler?

 

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I have to agree with RRAY on this.  Why are you putting him down and using his avg. as the reason why?  

I mean listen to yourself!  You say that one can't have a good technical conversation with him because his avg. is 197?  WHAT?  What does avg. have to do with it?  Plus do you know what conditions he plays on?  I bowl at a league that puts out very difficult patterns.  The avg. in this league is a lot lower than you find other places.  Yet, many of these bowlers would toast a lot of the higher avg. bowlers in the area.  Yet this still has nothing to do with technical conversations.

It seems to me this guy is being attacked because others don't like his opinions.  


--------------------
This fall it's Raw Hammer Time!

BeansProShop

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2007, 05:26:46 PM »
Hi! My name is Beans.

You should try my polish for your testing of CG matter or Nomaddah.....LOL!

Just a shameless plug!!!

Beans
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JessN16

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2007, 05:43:42 PM »
quote:
quote:
quote:
It is still to my amazement that some continue to argue with Rray.  How can you have a good technical bowling discussion with someone who averages 197 these days.  That's like really averaging 160.

Ric you are above that and you don't need to defend yourself against him.


And they call me an idiot? lol
Not that I care but 197 is like averaging 160? Care to explain that?
I don't think 197 is to bad being back only a year and a half from wrist surgery and two surgeries on my arm, after being off almost 2 years, lol.
And please explain what someones average has to do with their technical knowledge? Do you think every single person in the bowling industry is a bowler?

 

--------------------
New Lineup in Bag:
15lb Evolution - Pin in Ring
15lb Nebula - Pin under Ring
15lb Cranberry - 1:30 Label
15lb Enriched Uranium - Pin in Ring
15lb Black Cherry Bomb - 1:30 Label
 



I have to agree with RRAY on this.  Why are you putting him down and using his avg. as the reason why?  

I mean listen to yourself!  You say that one can't have a good technical conversation with him because his avg. is 197?  WHAT?  What does avg. have to do with it?  Plus do you know what conditions he plays on?  I bowl at a league that puts out very difficult patterns.  The avg. in this league is a lot lower than you find other places.  Yet, many of these bowlers would toast a lot of the higher avg. bowlers in the area.  Yet this still has nothing to do with technical conversations.

It seems to me this guy is being attacked because others don't like his opinions.  


--------------------
This fall it's Raw Hammer Time!


Same here. Average is irrelevant as to whether someone knows what they're talking about. I know plenty of people who average 200+, some even as high as 220, that have no clue. I know plenty of others below 200 that not only know their stuff, but can teach it.

A person's physical ability and their mental ability to understand something are not necessarily related.

Jess

Derek

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2007, 06:23:01 PM »
this reminds me of the "one amplifier sounds different than another" topic.

all things equal....are humans going to hear it and be able to point it out....nope.