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Author Topic: Best way to control scoring?  (Read 5553 times)

novawagonmaster

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Best way to control scoring?
« on: December 13, 2007, 03:33:04 AM »
Lane conditions?
Ball technology (cores/coverstocks)?
Pins?
Gutters/side boards?
Other???

My vote goes to lane conditions.

After being humbled on sport and PBA patterns, it is easy to see that averages can (and do) drop 20-40 pins for most players. While I do not think going to that extreme for most THS leagues is an option, there has to be a happy medium (say 5:1 ratio?).

I realize ball technology has run wild and that has contributed somewhat to scoring. However, I also believe the ball technology has allowed bowlers of differing styles to play on the same conditions. In my minds eye, limiting ball technology would be akin to forcing golfers to use one club. A small guy might tee off with a driver while a big guy could cover the same ground with a 5 wood or even an iron. A stroker and cranker can both play the same pattern with different balls. They just use different lines and different balls. By requiring tougher lane conditions, we would place the emphasis on accuracy and repetition. For those who argue "resin killed bowling", I don't think that's the case. It is not too difficult to score with urethane (or even plastic) on the walled up house shots as long as there are dry boards on the outside.

I also realize that Pandora's Box has been opened. "Wall-babies" will cry the blues if we tighten up the lanes. However, we may regain some of the bowlers who have given up because the sport has become a carry contest.

What are your opinions?
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Edited on 12/13/2007 4:15 PM

 

novawagonmaster

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2007, 03:54:39 PM »
quote:
Because we don't roll a bowling ball into a 10 ft hole.
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You are correct.
But you do roll the ball anywhere into an area ten boards wide and it will still make it to the pocket and strike.
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baseballfrk8998

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2007, 04:08:16 PM »
Yea, if it wasn't for that I wouldn't average over 130. Haha. I was jk about the 10 ft. hole btw.
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Fatboy8

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2007, 04:16:15 PM »
Right now to make it even for everyone, I'd say lane condition. If you put out some hellacious shot, everyone is on equal grounds. I've been humbled by some shots before, so I know what a big part conditions are.

Equipment would be a factor if the USBC came in and said no more resin, back to urethane or plastic only. But then everyone would have to buy that if they didn't already have it.

For golf, if the greeskeeper cut the greens really short, and they are lightening fast, that would be the equaivalant of a long/heavy bowling shot.
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shelley

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2007, 04:17:48 PM »
quote:
Would golfers flock to that course to play so they could shoot better scores? I believe most honest golfers would not like the idea. Why then, as bowlers, are we content with bowling centers walling up the lanes?


Because we can't see the hole (oil pattern) in bowling.  There's some mystery there, whether we choose to accept that the shot is easy or hard or whether we made a good shot or a bad one but still struck.

I think a more appropriate analogy is the grading of the greens.  If you have a good eye and know what you're doing, you can read the grade, you can observe others, how their balls roll, and can make adjustments based on how your or their previous shot fared.  If you are less experienced, you just know the green is, well, green, and why your ball rolls the way it does is slightly more of a mystery.

To make the putts easier or harder, the greenskeepers don't have to make the cup larger or smaller, only change the way the greens slope.  It doesn't have to be much, and while it might be noticeable, it doesn't even have to affect you on every putt.  The right grading might mean a three to five stroke difference at the end of the round, more than enough to make you feel like a winner even if the greens are easy.

SH

baseballfrk8998

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2007, 04:19:33 PM »
I don't know a whole lot about bowling and I don't claim to, but I know enough to know they won't do away with resin. Bowling ball companies would suffer way too much, they'd take a serious hit. It would cost the sport more than they would gain from it.
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Edited on 12/13/2007 5:19 PM

Borincano

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2007, 04:32:39 PM »
Shelley,

That is so true that if the playing conditions are the same for everybody. The one with the keen eye and brain skills will overcome any kind of obstacles.


quote:
quote:
Would golfers flock to that course to play so they could shoot better scores? I believe most honest golfers would not like the idea. Why then, as bowlers, are we content with bowling centers walling up the lanes?


Because we can't see the hole (oil pattern) in bowling.  There's some mystery there, whether we choose to accept that the shot is easy or hard or whether we made a good shot or a bad one but still struck.

I think a more appropriate analogy is the grading of the greens.  If you have a good eye and know what you're doing, you can read the grade, you can observe others, how their balls roll, and can make adjustments based on how your or their previous shot fared.  If you are less experienced, you just know the green is, well, green, and why your ball rolls the way it does is slightly more of a mystery.

To make the putts easier or harder, the greenskeepers don't have to make the cup larger or smaller, only change the way the greens slope.  It doesn't have to be much, and while it might be noticeable, it doesn't even have to affect you on every putt.  The right grading might mean a three to five stroke difference at the end of the round, more than enough to make you feel like a winner even if the greens are easy.

SH

agroves

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2007, 06:39:57 PM »
Here is my take:

Lane Conditions have to be adjusted first.  We have to let wall babies know they are wall babies.  The bowling community needs to look down upon these players....  Too many guys think they are good, but really suck.  I don't like argument for "short oil", I want to see a ratio limit of conditioner applied to the lanes.  

Pins.  Make heavier pins.  How hard is that?

Equipment.
--Now most will have issue with me on this.  Technology has to advance.  We aren't going back to plastic and urethane.  Get over it.  What we can do is limit the oil absorbion rate of coverstocks.....that would help with burning up patterns.  Let the cores grow, change and advance.

I don't understand the people that want 20 years of lane conditioning and equipment technology to go away.  It won't and shouldn't happen.  If you want to ban resin bowling balls, I say you have to ban wrist braces too.  Any crutch needs to be eliminated.

Andrew


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JessN16

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2007, 08:44:34 PM »
The fix is already there if we want to take it: Cut down the oil. I'd wager most houses are already on synthetics or headed that way, so the issue of protection of surface isn't what it used to be.

Hardest shot to bowl on is a bone-dry shot. Next to that is a flooded shot. We could actually fix this by oiling the entire length of the lane but that puts too much oil in the machines themselves and triggers breakdowns.

Resin stays, core technology stays. In fact, loosen the core specs. Don't try to limit technology so much.

Don't touch the pins, because of the issue for juniors, seniors and other low-average bowlers.

Instead, use technology at the lane conditioning level. Drop the volume, then deal with the ratios. You'll still have times where you catch a "sweet spot" as the lanes are breaking down but it will be pretty short-lived. Take away the drastic walls.

And, EDUCATE league bowlers on the difference in oil patterns. Many, if not most, have no clue unless they've ever sought that information out.

Jess

REvans284

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2007, 08:47:16 PM »
quote:
Here is my take:

Lane Conditions have to be adjusted first.  We have to let wall babies know they are wall babies.  The bowling community needs to look down upon these players....  Too many guys think they are good, but really suck.  I don't like argument for "short oil", I want to see a ratio limit of conditioner applied to the lanes.  

Pins.  Make heavier pins.  How hard is that?

Equipment.
--Now most will have issue with me on this.  Technology has to advance.  We aren't going back to plastic and urethane.  Get over it.  What we can do is limit the oil absorbion rate of coverstocks.....that would help with burning up patterns.  Let the cores grow, change and advance.

I don't understand the people that want 20 years of lane conditioning and equipment technology to go away.  It won't and shouldn't happen.  If you want to ban resin bowling balls, I say you have to ban wrist braces too.  Any crutch needs to be eliminated.

Andrew


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FUFU



I agree.  Taking away the technology in the balls won't solve anything especially if they don't tighten up the conditions.  My last year of youth, I got in a similar discussion on how the condition made a greater influence on higher scores of today as opposed to the equipment side and to prove the point I rolled a whole series in league bouncing a white dot off the wall playing up around the 5 board and shot 662.  

You could give me a long and flat oil pattern and all of my strong and med. equipment and I'd look like a fool trying get and stay lined up (I struggle on that more than anything).  And its without a doubt the biggest influence on the scoring pace today.  I don't consider myself a hack, but I know my place and that I'm nowhere near as good/accurate/repetative as alot of the bowlers out there.  I hold my own on sport but I'd have probably too much work to do to reach the Pro level in my lifetime if I wanted it.

Later,

REvans284

Edited on 12/13/2007 9:48 PM

novawagonmaster

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2007, 09:08:35 PM »
^^^ These guys get it!^^^

There was a FIGJAM post here a few days ago about high scores with plastic. That shows that even plastic balls can score at a rediculous pace so long as there is a wall to bump.

And to go one step farther, I think the wide variety of ball technology available provides another element to the game. I hate to use golf again, but it's such an easy comparison. Choosing the right ball to fit your style and the lane condition is like choosing the right club. As much as some of you say the balls are helping, they can be a liability if not chosen wisely.


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Jon (in Ohio)
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Edited on 12/13/2007 10:14 PM

sdbowler

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2007, 09:09:58 PM »
It seems like everyone thinks lane conditions should be the first thing to be changed. Let me ask you guys this. IF centers are forced to put out more oil and they start to charge more for leagues due to the higher amount of oil (cost) they have to use, will you be complaining about that? A few of you have said it already need to keep it fair for the lower average bowlers, youth bowlers, and the seniors. I agree on that but how is putting out more oil going to keep it fair for them? Most areas are made up of more average bowlers then higher average bowlers. If you make those average bowlers upset and they leave then what will happen to the sport, it will go even further down then it is.

The ball companies can control what they are releasing in the forms of coverstocks and weight blocks. I am glad to see that it looks like particle balls are slowing down in production. Unless I am not paying much attention to all the releases I have not seen many particle balls out. I personally am not a fan of the particle balls. Don't get me wrong they can come in handy at times.

I do agree that maybe the pins should be looked at to see about making them a little heavier or lowering the cg. How long ago has it been since anything was done with pins? Since many centers only buy pins only when they absolutely need them if anything is done with pins it would have to be a deal that would allow centers 3-5 years to get all sets updated for leagues.

This topic has came up many times before and it seems like we always get the same results. Maybe somebody should copy this and send to USBC and see what they say. Or just take the high points out of this and send them.
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Kyle

novawagonmaster

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2007, 09:18:38 PM »
sdbowler,

It's not a matter of using more oil. It does not need to be heavier volume, and it does not need to go farther down the lane. The ratio from left to right needs to be more even/flatter so as to require a little more accuracy.

Our local THS shot probably uses twice the units (total volume) of oil compared to the longest PBA pattern (Shark). The puddle is so deep in the middle (on the THS), you could float a barge on it.

So, if the proprieters could use the same or less units of oil to accomplish this, there would be no need to increase bowling fees.

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Jon (in Ohio)
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Edited on 12/14/2007 6:05 AM

REvans284

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2007, 09:24:43 PM »
quote:
It seems like everyone thinks lane conditions should be the first thing to be changed. Let me ask you guys this. IF centers are forced to put out more oil and they start to charge more for leagues due to the higher amount of oil (cost) they have to use, will you be complaining about that? A few of you have said it already need to keep it fair for the lower average bowlers, youth bowlers, and the seniors. I agree on that but how is putting out more oil going to keep it fair for them? Most areas are made up of more average bowlers then higher average bowlers. If you make those average bowlers upset and they leave then what will happen to the sport, it will go even further down then it is.

The ball companies can control what they are releasing in the forms of coverstocks and weight blocks. I am glad to see that it looks like particle balls are slowing down in production. Unless I am not paying much attention to all the releases I have not seen many particle balls out. I personally am not a fan of the particle balls. Don't get me wrong they can come in handy at times.

I do agree that maybe the pins should be looked at to see about making them a little heavier or lowering the cg. How long ago has it been since anything was done with pins? Since many centers only buy pins only when they absolutely need them if anything is done with pins it would have to be a deal that would allow centers 3-5 years to get all sets updated for leagues.

This topic has came up many times before and it seems like we always get the same results. Maybe somebody should copy this and send to USBC and see what they say. Or just take the high points out of this and send them.
--------------------
Brunswick
Kyle


Who said anything about using more oil?  When they use longer/flatter patterns they generally use less oil in the heads and spread it out more down lane (difference between a 10:1 vs a 4:1 - where 4:1 is the flatter pattern, and less over all volume).  

This leads to the heads burning up (especially from people feeding off the same line when it forces you to play in a zone - sport bowling), balls losing energy in the front/mid part of the lane faster, and it creates loss of carry when you try and create area and swing it.  

It makes bowling much more difficult, you can play tight and be a little high flush and leave a 4 pin, then make a little adjustment, and hit flush and leave a ringing 10.  It makes shot making and consistant ball speed much more important.

Later,

REvans284

PS.. Dangit Jon you replied too quick

Edited on 12/13/2007 10:27 PM

Maine Man

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2007, 09:48:08 PM »
The best way to control scoring is to get married.  You go from scoring 6 times a week to 6 times a year.  Wait, was this supposed to be a bowling question?
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BrianCRX90

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Re: Best way to control scoring?
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2007, 10:09:46 PM »
The only change I'd like to see is to have heavier and even different shaped pins. This would force bowlers to have to hit higher flush and stop as many of the the light devastating hits.
But to be honest, I'd much rather this only happen on the professional tour and only the PBA tour.