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Author Topic: Best way to handicap a league IS?  (Read 14846 times)

sammy the sage

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Best way to handicap a league IS?
« on: July 18, 2007, 11:47:07 AM »
WANT it to be FAIR...

ie...straight 80% favor's...where-as 100% favor's the low average...

so is 90% the best..or are there other alternative's?

PLEASE no NEGATIVE PIN garbage either...defeat's the purpose of the sport!
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storm making it rain

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2007, 10:25:44 AM »
100% is the fairest way no matter what the base score is. i'll give you an example:    bowler 1 has a 185 average bowler 2 has a 219 average. the base is 90% of 220giving bowler 1 31 pins bowler 2 1 pin per game.  bowler one shoots 585 plus 93 for a 678 total with handicap, now he bowled 30 full pins over his average. bowler 2 shoots 676 plus 3 for a 679 total with handicap, now he only bowled 19 pins above his average to win(if it was a match point system) is that fair? now i know this is just one night out of a long year but is that fair to lower average bowler?
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storm making it rain

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2007, 10:28:15 AM »
sorry didnt mean to post it twice!!!!!!!!
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302efi

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2007, 10:33:15 AM »
quote:
100% is the fairest way no matter what the base score is. i'll give you an example:    bowler 1 has a 185 average bowler 2 has a 219 average. the base is 90% of 220giving bowler 1 31 pins bowler 2 1 pin per game.  bowler one shoots 585 plus 93 for a 678 total with handicap, now he bowled 30 full pins over his average. bowler 2 shoots 676 plus 3 for a 679 total with handicap, now he only bowled 19 pins above his average to win(if it was a match point system) is that fair? now i know this is just one night out of a long year but is that fair to lower average bowler?


What happens if the 219 bowler ONLY shoots his avg every game ?

219 x 3 = 657

657 + 3 = 660 with handicap

He would shoot his avg and LOSE to the 93 pin handicrapper...
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splendorlex

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2007, 10:34:20 AM »
quote:
Isnt that the point to try to get better anyways ?!..If they do get tired of getting beat and quit, fcuk them, let them quit !..They cant ride the handicap train forever


To the people on this board?   Yeah, that's the point.  For the majority of league bowlers?  Not necessarily!  Some guys just want to be able to bowl once a week with a reasonable amount of success.  Again, why should the lower averages be the ones to quit in HANDICAP leagues.  If you don't like it, there's the door.  Go bowl a regional.
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nutsforbowling

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2007, 10:34:56 AM »
And they wonder why bowling is on the decline. I seriously doubt that the owner of the center would like it if a higher average bowler told all the lower average guys to get better or "go f yourself" as 302 says. There is a reason why almost all leagues are now handicap, to keep people coming back.

Our mens league is 90% of 230, which we raised 2 years ago to make sure everyone was under the cap. It has evened out the league some, and to make sure nobody bags the first few weeks, we added a rule that if your average is 10 or more pins lower than last year, your max hdcp is based on last year minus 10 pins. Also capped handicap at 50(164 average), so lower average bowlers know they need to try and improve.

I don't think any system is perfect, but we must be doing something right, because we have a waiting list to get on the league.
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storm making it rain

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2007, 10:41:23 AM »
to 302!!!!!

ok lets look at it bowler 1 with a 185 shoots his average under the 90% and has a 555 series plus 93 handicap for a 648...bowler 2 with a 219 shoots his average under 90% and has a 657 series plus 3 for a 660...so both bowlers shoot their average and the lower average loses because of the 90%...I REPEAT BOTH BOWLERS BOWL THEIR AVERAGES AND THE LOWER GUY LOSES STILL...UNDER 100% THEY TIE, NOW THEY BOTH BOWL THEIR AVERAGE AND THEY TIE IS THAT NOT FAIR???
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Dan Belcher

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2007, 10:47:47 AM »
quote:
Again, I have also heard the argument about how EASY it is for the 120 average bowler to shoot way over average.  Did you ever think about the fact that in order to have a 120 average he's probably thrown a few games in the 90s?  Or even perhaps in the 80s or lower?  It's called an AVERAGE for a reason.  Yes, they can get hot and blow your doors off for one week, but you're forgetting the four or five other times you bowled him and absolutely smoked him.  Why don't you remember?  He was bowling so bad you weren't even THINKING about the competition.

He's going to bowl some bad games just like I'm going to bowl some bad ones.  But it's a lot more likely for him to randomly get lucky and shoot over his 120 average than it is for me to do that with my 220 average.  It's not that it's "unfair" per se, it's just that when the other guy's only got a 120 average, it's a lot easier to get beaten by dumb luck like a couple dead center headpin shots that somehow trip everything out rather than making good shots.  That's all I'm saying.
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302efi

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2007, 10:58:10 AM »
quote:
Go bowl a regional.


I do..thank you very much ...but thats besides the point.

My point is this, pretty simple....

No matter what handicap system anybody uses, whenever someone who avg 220+ bowls his avg (or better) and get beats by a 180 bowler because of the handicap, theres always going to be this discussion.
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When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"

Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
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storm making it rain

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2007, 10:59:51 AM »
ok so what about 100% of 300 then it's all relative, whoever bowls over their average on a given night will win...true or not???
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9andaWiggle

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2007, 11:13:46 AM »
I think that since I only make $20,000 a year doing work recreationally, and since there are people who put in overtime and work hard to improve their earning potoential, that the government should give me 90% of the difference in our incomes to make life fair for me and give me a chance to taste success.


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JohnP

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2007, 11:16:57 AM »
The bottom line to this discussion is that you have to have a handicap system that allows lower average teams to feel competitive or the league is going to diminish in size.  Bowlers want to feel they can win.  If they don't they're going to drop out.  Back in the day, almost all league handicaps were 70% of 200.  Of course then there were only a very few 200 average bowlers, most were in the 160 - 180 range.  But at 70% low average teams couldn't win and they lasted only a year or two.  The best bowlers gravitated together and the same teams won year after year.  Higher percentages helped that situation.  But then lane conditions got easier and balls got stronger and 210 - 230 averages became common.  Now the base had to be raised to give the lower average teams a chance.  

Several folks have mentioned scratch leagues.  Unless you are in a high population area like Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, etc., a scratch league has to have an average cap to last, and an average range is even better.  For example, entering team averages must be between 700 and 740 for a 4 man team.  Otherwise the best bowlers in the area will come together and dominate the league and it won't last.  --  JohnP
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Aloarjr810

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2007, 11:20:35 AM »
Lets face it there is not going to be a "Fair" handicap
system. Because nobody can agree on what fair is.

Whats fair for one is not going to be fair to someone else.

Plus theres is no way to take into account people having nights they bowl over average or under average.

A nightmare  solution might be to base handicap on that nights average.
Bowl 3 game,then figure the 3 game average., then figure handicap based on that
average, see who wins. Do that each week. The Sec. would hate it.
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JoeBowler

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2007, 11:29:26 AM »
Too answr the question 90 to 100% gives the lower averages a chance are in that since it is fair.

At 90% one of the top 3 average teams in the league will win it almost every tinme.

Yu high average guys complaining just want to beat up on cripples.

We have several scratch leagues in the area. They are not hard to find.

But virtuallly every handicap league has several 210+ guys who refuse to bowl scratch leagues and just watn to complane about handicap. They want to beat up on the league, they feel they are justified in this beause they are better, this attitudee is a lot of what is killing league bowling.

If not scrath league available then form a handicap league of higher average bowlers.
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302efi

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2007, 11:30:34 AM »
quote:
ok so what about 100% of 300 then it's all relative, whoever bowls over their average on a given night will win...true or not???


If your gonna do that, then just bowl scratch....Whoevver bowls better wins, bottemline.

Why throw the handicap in there?

Forget bowling over avg, just bowl what you can !
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Roto-Grip

When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"

Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
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302efi

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Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2007, 11:34:57 AM »
quote:
Yu high average guys complaining just want to beat up on cripples.  


You handicrappers just wanna get what you didnt or dont earn...pins..

Why should they just be given to you ?...Because you suck and are not as good as someone else ?

I like ~9's idea's!
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Roto-Grip

When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"

Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
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