Author Topic: Best way to handicap a league IS? (Read 14953 times)

sammy the sage · « **on:** July 18, 2007, 11:47:07 AM »

WANT it to be FAIR...

ie...straight 80% favor's...where-as 100% favor's the low average...

so is 90% the best..or are there other alternative's?

PLEASE no NEGATIVE PIN garbage either...defeat's the purpose of the sport!

JohnP · « **Reply #1 on:** July 18, 2007, 09:53:13 PM »

90% with the base above the highest average in the league. -- JohnP

BrianCRX90 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 18, 2007, 10:04:43 PM »

I hate that garbage of revolving a league around the highest average. Who made that up? All you are doing is giving lower average bowlers more handicap.

This is the most fair: whatever percentage of 200 average , cap the low average at 150.
210 average bowlers do not need handicap and 130 bowlers do not need more handicap.

Edited on 7/18/2007 10:05 PM

sammy the sage · « **Reply #3 on:** July 18, 2007, 10:14:38 PM »

should you cap all scores at 300/900 or allow the 'bagger's'/or/legit mid-level bowlers to walk off w/season ending prize's...although it won't be big dollar's for individual awards?

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #4 on:** July 18, 2007, 10:42:28 PM »

Lets assume that you are assigning points on the TEAM level (ie, individual bowlers DO NOT earn points).

FAIR is points should be assigned to THE TEAM who bowls the most pins over average. The easiest way to establish this is to add all the averages of a particular team then add all the averages of the opposing team. The TEAM with the LOWEST TOTAL averages receives a HANDICAP of the difference in TOTALS!

This method is usually available in SECRETARY software.
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O

TDC57 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 18, 2007, 10:47:58 PM »

We've found that 90% of 5 pins above last year's high average has been as fair as we could get. The top teams still do well but the lower average teams have won or had a resonable chance to win every year since we adopted it.

shelley · « **Reply #6 on:** July 18, 2007, 11:05:05 PM »

quote:
I hate that garbage of revolving a league around the highest average. Who made that up? All you are doing is giving lower average bowlers more handicap.

Who made it up? I would guess mathematicians, or possibly some other group of people who understand numbers. Their argument for why handicap is the way it is comes from a pretty well accepted definition of fair, yours seems to come from "it just doesn't seem right that...".

quote:
This is the most fair: whatever percentage of 200 average , cap the low average at 150.
210 average bowlers do not need handicap and 130 bowlers do not need more handicap.

I'm not clear how it's fair. To me, fair means everyone has an equal chance. Unfair means that some have a greater chance. When I flip a fair coin, there is an equal chance of getting heads or tails. When I roll a fair die, the odds of getting any number is the same as any other number. The 6 is not more likely to come up than the 1 just because the 6 is bigger.

So lets not give the 130-average bowler additional handicap. Now, just to beat the 150-average bowler, he's gotta shoot 20+ pins over average. To beat the 200-average guy, he's gotta shoot even more over average. How is that fair in a handicap league? "Oh, the 200 average bowler deserves to win." That doesn't seem fair in a league that's designed to equalize all the players.

But you won't understand. I don't know if it's a defect in your brain or you just don't care. It doesn't really matter, this will never be settled. As I said, those that dislike giving handicap to anyone with a 200 average or higher prefer to use "it just isn't right that a 220 average bowler should get any handicap" while the people who understand what "fair" means use math to make perfectly clear, objective points.

Whatever percentage you choose, the base should always be above the highest average in the league.

SH

shelley · « **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2007, 11:08:54 PM »

quote:
The TEAM with the LOWEST TOTAL averages receives a HANDICAP of the difference in TOTALS!

That's mathematically equivalent to 100% of the difference between individual bowlers and some figure above the highest average. Either way you do it, one team gets N pins more than the other. You might give one team N pins and the other 0 or you might give one team N+100 and the other 100.

SH

Atochabsh · « **Reply #8 on:** July 19, 2007, 01:26:51 AM »

90% has been a pretty fair handicap in our area. You can do individual 90$ handicap or 90$ the difference between the two teams. But if you do individual 90% handicap you need to cap the handicap at the top average in the league. So if you have some one that is 217, handicap to 220.

100% handicap promotes sandbagging by the higher average bowlers and does not encourage improvement for the lower average bowlers. Unless you have a majority of the bowlers in your league at a similar level, then 100% handicap is a joke. If everyone is at the beginner level or at a very high level then it could be equitable. But most handicap leagues have a fair mix of low average and high average bowlers. 100% handicap is not equitable.

In the summer our league goes to a 2, 2, 2 and 1 (total pins) format which seems to also level the playing field.

Erin

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #9 on:** July 19, 2007, 07:17:07 AM »

SHEL .. I'm positive you and I are saying the SAME thing .. but explaining it a little different. My method makes it a little easier when thinking of a Secretary duty (or software). If you base it on the HIGHEST AVERAGE the amount could change weekly (e.g., 217/216/218 etc.) However when you just subtract one average (or team averages) of opponents .. the high average doesn't matter.

Yes I advocate 100% and I do this based on the FAIR statement.

How long can a LEAGUE bowler sandbag without effecting their average?

ON EDIT: PROMOTE IMPROVEMENT .. if you find a LEAGUE BOWLER who doesn't try their best every time they throw a ball .. that person should NOT be in a league. I bowl with SENIOR women who average (less then) 130 .. but they are always trying and looking for help. HANDICAP does NOT effect your desire to improve!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O

Edited on 7/19/2007 7:22 AM

jd1319 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 19, 2007, 07:32:58 AM »

Fair is scratch, should the Colts give the Browns 14 points before they even start? If handicap was fair, there should be handicap in the PBA, PGA, NBA, etc...

Handicap is not about fairness, it's about tilting the tables so that less deserving teams can win more often at the expense of the better teams and bowlers. The argument for handicap is basically saying the best team shouldn't win.

That being said, IMO, 100% is blatently unfair to the better bowlers and teams. If you work hard and develop a good game, you should have an advantage over the bowler who doesn't put forth the effort. People work hard in life to get ahead, and derseve to get ahead. 90% is a tolerable compromise, it gives a slight advantage to the better bowlers, but it's in no way fair. 80-85% gives enough of an advantage that the better bowlers don't feel slighted, and the weaker teams still have a legit shot to win if they bowl well.

Like it or not, the best teams should win more often, that's the whole point of being the best. I don't say that because I bowl on the best team, I don't, not by a longshot. However, when the best team in the league has to struggle to stay in the top 10 of a 90% league, and none of the top 4 teams finish in the top 5, there is a major issue.

azguy · « **Reply #11 on:** July 19, 2007, 07:40:47 AM »

For the past 3 months I've done math charts for this very reason, some in one league want to go to 85%, some in another league want 90%. Using even the 90% of, say 210, a 170 avg bowler has to bowl 3 pins over avg just to tie a bowler of 205 who only bowls his/her avg.

Lots of different opinions here, but to be 100% fair, IF and I know that's a huge word, but if bowlers only shot their avg, 100% is the only toe to toe fair handicap.

Yes, there's some who will sandbag, that's a fact that I sure don't know how to stop, but at 100% I could stand toe to toe with Doug Kent and say...I have a good chance to beat him....until we throw the first ball then I'm sunk, but at least I have a chance.

JMO.
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az guy aka: R & L Bowlers Pro
rlbowlerspro@cox.net
www.rlbowlerspro.com

302efi · « **Reply #12 on:** July 19, 2007, 07:43:19 AM »

Somebody wanna explain why that the higher avg bowlers have to give up so many (or any) at all ?

I mean people with high(er) avgs put time in their game to get better. They spent money on gear, and put work into there game, so why should they have to give up what they worked for ?

If your a new bowler in todays game, theres no reason to get better. The handicap is so high its crazy...

Consider this, a 220-230 bowler has a couple bad breaks in a game, there goes his game. He doesn't carry a few strikes, there goes his game.

I just don't see where bowling has to be (so) fair. If someone becomes a better bowler by working on their game, coaching ect...Why should they give up anything !>!...For Christ sake, THEY EARNED THEIR "ADVANTAGE" !
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Roto-Grip

When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"

Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...

Phoneman · « **Reply #13 on:** July 19, 2007, 07:53:05 AM »

handicaps are used in other sports. Golf has a handicap index that makes everyone start on a level playing field. Pro football has a handicap system...ever heard of a salary cap...that forces teams to at least get closer. Leveling the playing field at the start is why you have handicaps. If you dont want handicaps then bowl in a scratch league. By the way good luck finding that.

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #14 on:** July 19, 2007, 07:59:16 AM »

quote:

Handicap is not about fairness, it's about tilting the tables so that less deserving teams can win more often at the expense of the better teams and bowlers. The argument for handicap is basically saying the best team shouldn't win.

That's a REAL COMPETITIVE attitude. Why not collect the PRIZE FUND and give it to the HIGHEST AVERAGE team. Why bother to have a secretary. Just get the TREASURER to make a check out to the highest average team. ALL THAT equates to SCRATCH!

quote:
That being said, IMO, 100% is blatently unfair to the better bowlers and teams. If you work hard and develop a good game, you should have an advantage over the bowler who doesn't put forth the effort. People work hard in life to get ahead, and derseve to get ahead.

Why do you allow these INFERIOR bowlers in the league. I guess you figure they are there to DONATE! Perhaps thats why bowling is FIZZLING! Even a STUPID bowler gets tired of DONATING! If you work hard to develope a GOOD GAME then you must want to be competitive. Placing yourself in a spot that IS NOT competitive and you have an ADVANTAGE indicates you HAVEN'T developed a GOOD GAME!

quote:
90% is a tolerable compromise, it gives a slight advantage to the better bowlers, but it's in no way fair. 80-85% gives enough of an advantage that the better bowlers don't feel slighted, and the weaker teams still have a legit shot to win if they bowl well.

I agree with your 90% COMPROMISE .. but only when it is 90% of the difference of the opponents! Your comments on 80-85%, in my books is outrageous! It is tilted towards the better bowlers and is a COVER UP to make the lower bowlers feel like they have a chance!

quote:
Like it or not, the best teams should win more often, that's the whole point of being the best. I don't say that because I bowl on the best team, I don't, not by a longshot. However, when the best team in the league has to struggle to stay in the top 10 of a 90% league, and none of the top 4 teams finish in the top 5, there is a major issue.

Apparently your description is of a BEST TEAM that did not bowl their averages and at the season end were MUCH BELOW their normal averages. If not .. then perhaps it might be attributed to ABSENT BOWLERS!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O

Author Topic: Best way to handicap a league IS? (Read 14953 times)

sammy the sage

Best way to handicap a league IS?

JohnP

Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?

BrianCRX90

Re: Best way to handicap a league IS?

sammy the sage

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JOE FALCO

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TDC57

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shelley

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shelley

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Atochabsh

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JOE FALCO

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jd1319

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azguy

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302efi

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Phoneman

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JOE FALCO

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