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Author Topic: Determing Thumb Pitches  (Read 16454 times)

Brickguy221

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Determing Thumb Pitches
« on: August 22, 2008, 08:45:35 AM »
Is there a chart or diagrams as a basic guide line of where to start to determine a starting point in determining a bowlers thumb pitch?

I know that after a bowler bowls awhile that a driller can adjust his thumb pitch from what it is depending on several factors, but say a new bowler that has never bowled, is there a chart or diagrams to aid in determining what pitches to drill his first thumb hole?
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2008, 05:19:56 PM »
Brick...the old Bill Taylor charts are a start.

Jayhawkbowling.com has some very similar also.

I don't remember you being happy with the Bill Taylor charts from the past though...

REgards,

Luckylefty
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Smash49

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2008, 06:14:57 PM »
There are charts in the IBPSIA HOTS manual.  There are several of them including the oval thumb drilling charts, pitch charts for fingertip,conventional and thumb drillings and callus guide.

Smash49
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JohnP

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2008, 10:19:58 PM »
The link to the chart on the Jayhawk site is below.  --  JohnP

http://jayhawkbowling.com/Pro_s_Corner/Pro_Shop_Forms/thumbangle.pdf
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Brickguy221

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2008, 12:20:38 AM »
John...message sent.
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Brickguy221

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2008, 12:23:14 AM »
quote:
Brick...the old Bill Taylor charts are a start.


LuckyLefty, where are the Bill Taylor Charts????
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Brickguy221

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2008, 12:24:11 AM »
quote:
There are charts in the IBPSIA HOTS manual.


Smash, I can't find a link to show the charts. Can you furnish me one?
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voidkid89

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2008, 08:04:47 PM »
I guess I do not understand the meaning of the angles.  Where does that come from, where are you checking this angle.  Are you having the customer hold there hand with the back of the hand facing them and seeing the angle between the index finger and thumb?  Also, I have heard several times to check the bowlers flexability in the fingers, well just exactly how do you check thier flexability, and what does a lot or a little mean with fingers.  I would love to go to a HOTS, but that is just simply too much money, and the boss is too cheap.  Thanks guys for a helping an eager proshop guy who can't get the resources.
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JohnP

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2008, 09:23:15 PM »
quote:
Are you having the customer hold there hand with the back of the hand facing them and seeing the angle between the index finger and thumb?


Yes.

 
quote:
just exactly how do you check thier flexability, and what does a lot or a little mean with fingers


Assuming you're fitting for a fingertip grip you're mainly interested in the flexibility of the first finger joint (closest joint to the finger nail).  Use your hand to bend their finger back toward the palm of their hand, without forcing.  Look at how far the first joint bends.  At the extremes, 90 degrees would be completely perpendicular to the finger segment and 0 degrees would be no bend at all.  At 90 degrees I recommend 0 pitch, I don't like to put anyone in forward finger pitch.  I've never actually run into a joint that won't bend at all.  My RF joint is as stiff as I've ever seen and it bends about 20 degrees.  I use 3/4 reverse on that finger.  You can estimate between these extremes.  Remember to add some extra reverse - I add 3/16 - to the pilot hole if the customer is using lift grips.  --  JohnP
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voidkid89

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2008, 09:42:31 PM »
Thank you so much John! So you're saying that someone with 90 degrees in both fingers, using lifts, should be at roughly 3/16 reverse in each?  And one more question about the thumb angle.  Is the angle measured just stretching their thumb away from their index finger, or do you allow them to help stretch with their opposite hand?
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JohnP

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2008, 03:34:04 PM »
quote:
So you're saying that someone with 90 degrees in both fingers, using lifts, should be at roughly 3/16 reverse in each?


That's what I recommend, for the pilot hole.

 
quote:
And one more question about the thumb angle. Is the angle measured just stretching their thumb away from their index finger, or do you allow them to help stretch with their opposite hand?


I pull slightly on it to be sure it's completely stretched, but if it is it makes very little difference.  Try it on your own hand.  If you stretch it back, you can't get much more by pulling on it without inducing pain.  --  JohnP

Added on edit -- Actually, when I "read" a hand I check the thumb's stiffness by rotating it in all directions, again without forcing (think of how you can rotate a joy stick).  I get my starting lateral pitch suggestion from that also.  --  JohnP

Edited on 8/25/2008 3:37 PM
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2008, 04:11:34 PM »
Bill Taylors charts are in his book bowling and drilling a bowling ball.

They refer to a 63 degree angle between the front finger hole and a staight line to the top of the thumb hole(yes drawn imaginary thru the ball) and the angle of the front face of the thumbhole.  Bill found 63 degrees gave a nice hold for a full fingertip span with average thumb flexibility(about 105 degrees), wet/dryness, average thumb length.

This is also I believe in our refernce section out here.

But the 63 degrees is easy when converted to this!

4 1/4 full fingertip span is 0
for each 1/8 longer spanlength add 1/16 reverse.
For each 1/8 shorter span than 4 1/4 go 1/16 forward.

Droppers go 1/8 forward, hangers go 1/8 reverse.

For lateral pitch he used the coke bottle test.  A thumb grabbing a coke bottle with the thumb bent...where does tip of the thumb point in the fingers.

if pointing to an index finger 1/8 lateral out!
If pointing to between index and middle then 0 lateral out!
If pointing to middle finger 1/8 lateral under palm.
If pointing to middle finger and ring 1/4 lateral under palm
If pointing to ring finger 3/8 lateral under palm.

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS If I remember right Brick you had a stiff thumb less than 90 degrees flexibility.  105 is about standard, 90 is stiff, less than 90....real stiff...usually means more reverse than the tables....
PPS many find the above tables to be old fashioned.  Too much reverse and too much under palm lateral(right for righties).  Since I have moved to naked finger holes....I'm not so sure.....I do know that when one meets Bill Taylor he believes these reverse thumb pitches are a starting point.  That one moves forward from here as they become more advanced and if flexible.  They do not shorten their span however just to use a forward thumb pitch.  I also know he is a devoted fan of lateral under palm pitch if called for by the coke bottle test).  Many others believe the coke bottle test introduces too much lateral under palm for the modern game.  Many others use the bunnetta method for thumb pitch.
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Brickguy221

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2008, 10:10:00 PM »
quote:
If I remember right Brick you had a stiff thumb less than 90 degrees flexibility. 105 is about standard, 90 is stiff, less than 90....real stiff...usually means more reverse than the tables....
 


LuckyLefty, for what ever reason, my thumb has apparently changed since discussing with you 4-5 years ago. For example, using the Jayhawk charts that JohnP provided a link to, my thumb is now 90 degrees (Average tight). And on lateral pitches when using the coke bottle test or grabbing the wrist test, my thumb used to point to just outside the index finger and I used 3/16 to 1/4 out pitch, whereas it now points between the index finger and middle finger which would indicate 0 lateral per the Bill Taylor Chart. Seems since I retired 7 years ago, my thumb has become a wee bit more limber than it used to be.
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Brick

Edited on 8/25/2008 10:11 PM
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Pinbuster

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2008, 08:34:40 AM »
I have said in the past and continue to feel that the best way to determine a bowlers grip specifications is action testing in an adjustable measuring ball.

Using the measuring ball you can make as many changes to pitches and spans as need.

After each adjustment the measuring ball can then be thrown multiple times if needed in the air to the pro. The pro can see how the adjustments effect the release and the bowler can feel the grip and release.

Ideally the pro would have multiple weights of measuring balls so that the customer could feel the grip/release with at least close to the correct weight.  

While this method is not absolutely fool proof it will get grip specs right 90+% of the time the first time. The few that are off are not generally off much just a little fine tuning maybe needed.
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Brickguy221

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Re: Determing Thumb Pitches
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2008, 11:46:45 AM »
quote:
I have said in the past and continue to feel that the best way to determine a bowlers grip specifications is action testing in an adjustable measuring ball.  


My driller doesn't have an adjustable measuring ball, so I am out of luck there.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

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