win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Nice insight by an annonymous player  (Read 3214 times)

DavidKSNK

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
Nice insight by an annonymous player
« on: January 31, 2011, 03:55:51 AM »

This was written by an  annonymous person. However if you love the game of bowling as I do, you  will have a hard time not agreeing with it's contents albeit a bit  lengthy.....but it accurately sums up where bowling went, and what is wrong with the game.

Riggs I disagree wholeheartedly. We fought. We voted down  urethane balls. Our collective voice was ignored. We knew since the  soaker days that more friction = better scores, especially for the  unskilled, or lesser skilled player. What has happened since then? Soft  batches of plastic balls that hooked more and scored better than normal  batches. Urethane balls that hooked more and scored better than plastic.  Synthetic lanes with cleaner back ends and more skid in the front  produced more friction and higher scores. Short oil more friction and  more scores. Resin balls produced even more friction. Dynamic cores and  flares = more friction. More porous shells. Sanding pads. Need I go on?  Everything to produce more friction. High level players did not get what  they deserve, they were force-fed these changes. Adapt or die we were  told. If you do not like it don't bowl we were told. Guess what? I do  not like it and not bowling and not purchasing those products that I do  not like is my way of saying "I have had enough." It does not make me a  quitter. I made a choice as a consumer. Judging from declining  membership numbers and declining ball sales, I am not the only one who  has made the choice.

We as high level bowlers did not get  what we deserved. We got what the ball manufacturers wanted us to have--  a game dependent on disposable equipment. And the ABC/USBC and to some  extent the PBA let it happen. Shame in them.

We deserve a  game where the high level player is visibly superior at the game than  the low level player to the untrained eye. At this the game fails  miserably.

We deserve a game that identifies the skill of  the individual player. We ended up with a game that identifies the skill  of the ball rep (pro level) ball driller (league level) more often than  not.

We deserve a game that rewards accuracy and  penalizes errant shots. We ended up with a game that penalizes accuracy  and rewards errant shots.

We deserve a game where  technique provides power. We ended up with a game where technology  provides power to such an extent that high level players purposely use  weaker technique to compensate ('be nice to it' 'take my hand out of it'  'let the ball do the work' 'sarge easter grip' does this all sound  familiar?).

We deserve a game that does not require pros  to carve their shot in practice. We ended up with players forming  alliances for television shows to carve a shot; players using sand  blasted balls to destroy an opponent's shot etc. (I mean you do not see  Tiger and Phil tooling around Augusta with a lawn mower to shorten the  rough in spots where they might hit it wide do you?)

We  deserve a stable playing environment. We ended up with lanes that  transition every few frames and on the pro level squad success that is  often more impacted by your luck of the draw cross than your actual  bowling.

We deserve a game that is simple to learn yet  difficult to master. We ended up with a game where numerous unskilled  players reach the pinnacle of the game (300) and higher level players  routinely approach and even reach what was once thought to be impossible  (900 for 3 games).

I think quitting and hitting the  industry in the pocket book is the only way left to get the industry to  pay attention. They have turned a deaf ear and blind eye to everything  else. .

 
Edited by DavidKSNK on 1/31/2011 at 12:57 PM

 

livespive

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4819
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2011, 12:07:09 PM »
+1

 

Very true, I remember an article I read in bowlers digest, where Dick Weber said he had to learn the "Resin Release"

 

Nice post.


Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
 Visionary Test Staff Member, and originator of The Livespive Leverage 3:15° drill

http://www.visionarybowling.com
http://www.maysbowlingandbilliards.com
Ball Reviews FAQ
BR.com search hack:  http://www.bowling-info.com/Search.html

Old Bowlingballreview.com site:
http://www.bowlingballvault.com

Mario's Secrects:
http://bowlingknowledge.com/tips.html

RIP THONGPRINCESS AND SAWBONES

Juggernaut

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6498
  • Former good bowler, now 3 games a week house hack.
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2011, 01:10:00 PM »
 SO,
 

 why do I get A**HAMMERED every time I try to tell people these same things?

 

 Is it because they just don't understand? Is it that they know these things and just don't agree? Or is it that, because they don't know me, they dis-regard my opinion as just so much garbage?

 

 I will probably never completely quit bowling, but it isn't what it used to be, and sadly, it never will be again.


"Yeah, I throw AMF. What's it to ya"?



 



 
Learn to laugh, and love, and smile, cause we’re only here for a little while.

Good Times Good Times

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6462
  • INTJ Personality
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2011, 01:16:43 PM »
"I just wanna go out and shoot 750 and drink some beers" guy..  LOL.

 

Again, PROFITS are more important to owners than the integrity of the game (hence the retarded 10:1 ratio THS).  When that changes.......bowling will be real again.


GetOffMe10Pin

 

-"If you want to make enemies, try to change something." - Woodrow Wilson
GTx2

CHawk15

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2011, 03:22:11 PM »
Yet another one of these "this is what is wrong with bowling posts."   I agree with some points in the article and disagree with others.   The bottom line is that in the "glory days" of bowling, there were not nearly as many recreational options as we have now and most of work in the country was 9 to 5 jobs in a manufacturing facility.  Well, times have changed the average American works more hours and has many more options on how to spend free time.  That is just as big a part of the decline as anything that the sport has done to itself. 

 

We as high level bowlers did not get what we deserved. We got what the ball manufacturers wanted us to have-- a game dependent on disposable equipment. And the ABC/USBC and to some extent the PBA let it happen. Shame in them.
 

I agree with the general comment that the sport created a scenario where this may indeed appear to be true.  There have definitely been bowling balls that don't last.  Lane machines being able to duplcate an oil pattern and the progression of the "Great Wall of China" shot is more responsible for being "dependent" on equipment.  The ABC didn't really enforce the lane condition guidelines that were set down and Pandora's box was opened.  It will be bad for the business of bowling to try to close it now.  What needs to happen now is that more  a distinction needs to be made between "Recreational Bowling" and "Competitive Bowling".  PBA Experience Leagues / Team USA Experience Leagues are a step in the right direction.  The sanction fee for recreational bowling should be decreased as well as the rewards for reacreational bowling accomplishments.  Steps are being taken in the right direction but it's not enough.  What "high level" bowlers deserved or didn't deserve is irrelevant, bowling center owners need to do what's best for business.  The other problem I have is that the definition of "High Level" Bowler is a little fuzzy. 

 

We deserve a game where the high level player is visibly superior at the game than the low level player to the untrained eye. At this the game fails miserably.


We deserve a game that identifies the skill of the individual player. We ended up with a game that identifies the skill of the ball rep (pro level) ball driller (league level) more often than not.

 

How do you define a high level player vs a low level player ?   I believe the author in this article uses high level player and power player as interchangable terms.  You can be a high level player and not be a power player and conversely, just because you have a 400+ rev rate doesn't make you a high level player.  I think the big thing that happened with resin is that the carry advantage that the power players enjoyed due to the fact that they could create more entry angle was eliminiated.  It was no longer an advantage to be able to  "hit" the ball at the bottom of the swing and I think that power players to this day are still ticked off about it.  It's been 20+ years,  GET OVER IT, your wrist, elbow and shoulder will thank you later.  Definition of bowling skill changed from who could hit the ball the hardest to who could repeat shots the best.  Which one you prefer depends on the era you bowled in. 

 

We deserve a game that rewards accuracy and penalizes errant shots. We ended up with a game that penalizes accuracy and rewards errant shots.
 

I definitely agree with the author in respect to what I call recreational bowling.  If you want this, join a sport shot league, it's as simple as that.   Again USBC and the bowling industry as a whole needs to reward compeitive bowlers more and recreational bowlers less if the sport is to regain some credibility.  

 

We deserve a game where technique provides power. We ended up with a game where technology provides power to such an extent that high level players purposely use weaker technique to compensate ('be nice to it' 'take my hand out of it' 'let the ball do the work' 'sarge easter grip' does this all sound familiar?).

 

I can sympathize with the author on this one, but again high level player doesn't mean power player, there are plenty of high level bowlers out there that don't have a 400+ rev rate.  More evidence that this is the classic power player complaining because his carry advantage was taken away when resin came out.

 

We deserve a game that does not require pros to carve their shot in practice. We ended up with players forming alliances for television shows to carve a shot; players using sand blasted balls to destroy an opponent's shot etc. 

 

Do you honestly believe this hasn't always been done on tour ?  Granted the damage to the pattern can be done significantly faster now, but I think it's naive to think that this is something that only happened during the resin era. What changed is that instead of carrying the oil down the lane, they burn it up in the front part.

 

We deserve a stable playing environment. We ended up with lanes that transition every few frames and on the pro level squad success that is often more impacted by your luck of the draw cross than your actual bowling.  

People buy the most expensive ball out there and throw it on league night in a high friction house that uses lane conditioner that breaks down fast anyway.  As far as the Pro level goes, versatility is the key skill now days, not power.  Do you think that Norm Duke, Chris Barnes or Bill O'Neill care who the crosses are ?   That being said, I do wish the lanes would be a little more stable then they currently are.   

 

We deserve a game that is simple to learn yet difficult to master. We ended up with a game where numerous unskilled players reach the pinnacle of the game (300) and higher level players routinely approach and even reach what was once thought to be impossible (900 for 3 games).
 

This is why the distinction needs to be made between recreational and competitive bowling.  Any league bowled on a "China" shot should be considered a recreational league, period. Competitive leauges are bowled on something more difficult than a "China" shot. 
 
Edited by CHawk15 on 1/31/2011 at 4:25 PM

Locke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1482
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2011, 03:25:37 PM »
The game has changed. But I would say, send those people who shoot big scores on house shots out on a sport and see what happens. The problem with this argument is there is a clear distinction between the pros and use league bowlers. When was the last time you went out and fired off a 720 on the Shark? Tech is part of sports these days. bowlers didn't score like they do now, golfers didn't hit it 330 yards, tennis players didn't hit serves 150 mph, hockey players didn't hit a puck 110 mph, and baseball players didn't hit 500ft home runs. Tech is everywhere and that genie is not going back into the bottle. You want a challenge, take your team to a house that puts out a difficult shot. Thats what I did and you can do it too.

Always be sincere, even when you don't mean it
Always be sincere, even when you don't mean it.

Zanatos1914

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2376
  • Success is achieved by failure
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2011, 03:57:36 PM »
I agree with the original post, but like everything. all things must change.  If you keep looking back you will become further behind in the times..  I have heard stores about the old days and thats cool but we are living in the now times.  You worring about another person scoring big and I trying to figure out why I am not scoring big all the time..  Worry about your own game


2 Fingers 4 Life
I Am The 3 Fingers Nightmare

DavidKSNK

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2011, 04:07:36 PM »
"You don't have to be a laneman to know bowling has problems. You have  to be a laneman to know how bad bowling's problems are." -Len Nicholson,  former PBA Laneman and PBA Hall of Member



DavidKSNK

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2011, 04:12:23 PM »
One of the things a lot of people don't seem to recognize/realize is the kind of damage the modern bowling balls cause to the play environment as a whole...from the oil pattern to the lane surface.


DavidKSNK

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2011, 04:30:34 PM »
I'll give you something a friend of mine wrote once since it explains everything perfectly as to oil depletion and the modern balls.
 
"Track flare is the greatest cause of oil depletion. Track flare causes  the ball to pick up oil every revolution, no matter what the coverstock  is. Balls with track flare deplete oil through the entire length of the  pattern, no matter what the coverstock is.

Balls without track  flare pick up all the oil they can within a couple revolutions (the  first 14'), no matter what the coverstock is. Balls without track flare  do not deplete oil in the mid or back of the pattern, no matter what the  coverstock is.

I use a base of about 36 plus games per lane for  the above. Of course after all head oil has been depleted, no-flare  balls will start picking up oil later in the pattern.

Softer  urethane cover balls hold a sanding pattern much longer than styrene  (plastic) cover balls. Because of this, the "peaks" penetrate the oil  barrier and damage the lanes faster. Porous flexible covers do the same  thing. This also picks up more oil, but again, without flare, only in  the first 14'.

Harder urethane and polyester balls don't hold a  sanding pattern very well - the "peaks" of the sanding pattern get  knocked down quickly - so less damage to the lane, and less oil is  needed. This is why we didn't sand plastic balls, or Grey Angles for  that matter, the sanding pattern was not effective for very long.

The  problem with not addressing coverstocks, while only addressing  imbalanced cores, is if the coverstock is too aggressive - holding a  sanded pattern (soft urethane), highly porous (resin), or still provides  a flexible wide footprint (resin, Flexcell, etc.) - too much oil will  be needed to protect the lane and control the balls, for most bowlers.

This  in return will cause an excessive amount of carrydown. This was what  happened in the mid to late 80's once balls became more aggressive, and  those type balls got into everyone's bags. This is what happens with  today's patterns when using non-flaring balls. The late 80's we were  using about 12-13 milliliters per lane. Today we are using 22-26  milliliters per lane. Until 1980, we were using about 6-8 milliliters  per lane.

First and foremost, lanes need enough oil to protect  the lane surface, and then provide a controllable playing field, for  whatever balls are in play.

With non-flaring harder cover balls -  even harder urethane - much less oil is needed to protect the lane  surface, and provide a controllable playing environment. Very little oil  also means very little carrydown. With this combination, providing  "real conditions" would happen with much more frequency than what we  have now.

Right now most mechanics don't have the knowledge, the  tools, or the time, to provide "real conditions". Hence we have all too  often either side of the spectrum - stupid easy or stupid hard - instead  of what should be the norm.

In keeping with the topic of the  thread, I prefer bowling to use technology as a way to "make things  better", or in other words, help those to provide a playing environment  on "real conditions" more often than not. For some reason, in recent  years, bowling has gone backwards in this regard, definitely not  forwards.

I guess the only way I can explain it is, when I teach  bowling, and try to bring people into the game we have now, I feel like a  crooked used car salesman. I didn't have this feeling until the late  80's early 90's."      

 
The Omnipotent wrote on 1/31/2011 5:25 PM:
As compared to what?  Wood balls on wood lanes, plastic balls on wood lanes?  Ever hear of what was put in the LT-48 to make it hook when it first came out?  You seem to consider yourself a historian, I'll wait while you look that up.  What do you think that did to your precious shot of the 60's and 70's? 

 

Get off it.  Now adays its plastic ball on plastic lanes with the most viscuous, thick conditioner ever.  Instead of a flit gun and a mop, it's laid down precisely by a machine   Yeah, I know.  It can't compare to rubber on wood with lacquer......oh, wait, it can.  And does.   

 

     



 


 


 


"Stupid is as stupid does.  And you sure do a lot!"
 
Edited by The Omnipotent on 1/31/2011 at 5:27 PM

 
Edited by DavidKSNK on 1/31/2011 at 5:31 PM

retiredbowler

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 24
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2011, 09:13:32 PM »
This has been debated for six decades too. I knew guys back in the 1970's that would not throw plastic because it was a cheater ball. They same guys railed at urethane and Tommy Hudson tried to get urethane banned from the PBA Tour. He last won in 1980. I don't think he ever won with a urethane ball. Had he learned to adapt, he may have won 20 titles instead of 10. I last heard he was working in a pro shop in Florida drilling balls he hated!
 
For those who want to live in 1960, lets get rid of cell phones, the internet, flat screen televisions, modern medicine, micowave ovens, air conditioning etc... There is no use in complaining about everything. I remember I read an article where Carmen Salvino was criticized for throwing a 3/4 roller instead of a full roller back in his early days because "old timers" said the ball had to track between the thumb and finger holes.
 
Bowling, Golf and Tennis in particular are technology sports. Do you expect Lance Armstrong to ride a 1970 Sears Huffy bike? Should NASCAR go back to 1957 Chevy's?
 
Its a moot point, and the argument is stale. Bowling is growing by leaps and bounds in Asia, Western Europe, South America, Mexico so if you choose not to bowl out of protest to hurt the bowling industry, you are not accomplishing anything. You are hurting yourself. These bowlers trying to play martyr are being foolish. Bowl because you want to or quit because you want to. Don't say you are fighting "the man" by not bowling. Its foolish.
 
MT
 
 
 
 



CHawk15

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2011, 10:09:44 PM »
The problem is there's a tradeoff and a "middle ground" that needs to be found.  Ball companies sell these bowling balls with aggressive coverstocks and high flaring cores and the general bowling population misuses them.  This in turn burns up the lane surfaces faster so they have to put more oil down to protect the lane and then you rinse and repeat several times over the last 20 yrs or so.  

 

The problem is that Pandora's box was opened and if the bowling industry shuts it down now, they'll lose a significant part of what's left of the customer base.  The answers are not easy, but I do believe that the current model needs to change. 

 



JessN16

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3716
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2011, 11:44:06 PM »
Here's what I never see addressed in these "things were better back then" posts:
 
If the resin ball dries up the track (it does), destroys the pattern (it does), creates carrydown (it does), depletes overall volume (it does), all the while still possessing enough friction to nearly turn itself around (it does) -- then isn't bowling harder than it was back then, deep into a block?
 
I've had the opportunity to bowl all-plastic events recently and I found them easier. Carry wasn't as good but it sure was nice to stand in one place like a robot for two hours. 
 
One thing the resin era ushered in was the rise of the mental game, and I'm not talking about "mental toughness" the way some guys want to define it -- i.e., the ability to keep from getting rattled under pressure -- I'm talking about basic intelligence. One thing resin did, at the competitive level, was force people to do a lot more thinking than they did before. And as such, that brings a lot of people into the game that couldn't compete before, and I see that as a positive. Of course the power players of old don't like it; now the stroker and tweener has as much chance as they do.
 
The one truism here is that bowling isn't going to go backwards. Be nostalgic if you want to be, but be realistic.
 
Jess



rvmark

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2011, 06:30:32 AM »
I am sorry but I am not in agreement with the letter.  It appears to written by an individual who wants bowling set up in a way that would favor a certain style of bowler.  The writer wants to be able to stand in the same spot and throw all night.  I have been told that if I am to be a good bowler then I need to learn to adjust to the lane conditions.  Technology is not going to go away and the game is not going to go back to the days of the 50's, 60's, 70's or 80's no more than golf is going to go back to persimmon woods, all blade irons or a 1970's era golf ball. 
 
If you truly love to bowl and choose to boycott bowling then the only one that will be hurt in the end will be you because you are giving up something that you love to do.  JMO.
 
Mark



Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Re: Nice insight by an annonymous player
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2011, 06:55:35 AM »
Sythetic lanes are MUCH harder than wood, therefore, when they first came out, the manufacturers had to create softer shells in order for the balls to react.  Every manufacturer continued to up the technology, unchecked or even monitored by ABC, until we now have the "Hook in the Box" balls.

 

Hard to blame the manufacturers, since all they want to do is sell product and you can't blame the bowlers, since all they want to do is throw big numbers.

 

The integrity of the game, in my opinion, is in the hands of USBC.  They created this mess and they have no ways of correcting it.

 

It is what it is.