Author Topic: Rules question (Read 9630 times)

Rick Wunder · « **on:** August 13, 2009, 12:38:11 AM »

This happened in our league last night:

A bowler is up on lane 13. During his approach, he falls on the approach, losing his ball off his hand. He fell and landed way short of the foul line. His ball rolled across the approach toward lane 14, and eventually found its way into the right gutter on lane 14. The ball eventually ended up going all the way down lane 14 (gutter), causing the pinspotter to cycle and return his ball.

We concluded that since the ball left his hand and rolled across the foul line that he had made a legal (if unorthodox) delivery. We considered the possibility that it should be considered a gutter ball and he should get zero on that ball (his first ball of the frame). After further consideration, and consulting the USBC rule book, we reconsidered, determining that he had "bowled" on the wrong lane, so therefore it was a dead ball and should be taken over again.

What do the rest of you think the ruling should have been?

We have e-mailed the USBC and I'll post the results when I hear them.
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RW (THB)

J_w73 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 13, 2009, 03:44:45 PM »

quote:
Does anyone care about the fact that he might have injured himself?
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________________________________________________
There is more to bowling than just knocking down pins.

Never argue with an idiot!
The spectators won't know who is who.

sure.. hope he is ok..
but the rule doesn't change if he is injured or not.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Rick Wunder · « **Reply #17 on:** August 13, 2009, 04:01:24 PM »

I neglected to mention that the gentleman that fell was OK, and he was able to get up on his own, and eventually continue bowling.

Thanks to those who asked, and I'm sorry for not mentioning it in my original post.

No news from USBC.
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RW (THB)

Pinbuster · « **Reply #18 on:** August 13, 2009, 04:55:02 PM »

Well. I feel it was a legal delivery. And he threw a gutter ball.

He was up on the correct lane. He started his correct approach with the intent of delivering the ball. However unorthodox he released the ball and it crossed the foul line into playing territory.

quote:
4a. Legal Delivery
A delivery is made when the ball leaves the playerâ€™s possession and crosses the foul line into playing territory.
Every delivery counts unless a dead ball is declared. (See Rule 8.) A delivery must be made entirely by
manual means. No device may be incorporated in or affixed to the ball that detaches on delivery or is a moving
part during delivery except as provided in Rules 4b and 4c.

If he had stumbled over his own feet and thrown a shot into the gutter it would have counted as zero. If he had stuck in the ball and threw it into the gutter is would have been zero. Simply missing so badly it rolls onto the next lane doesn't give relief.

I see nothing to give him a dead ball in rule 8.

quote:

Rule 8 - Dead Ball
When a dead ball is called, the delivery does not count and the correct pins must be respotted. The player is
allowed to rebowl that delivery.
A ball shall be declared dead if any of the following occur:
a. After a delivery, attention is immediately called to the fact that one or more pins were missing from
the setup.
b. A human pinsetter interferes with any standing pin before the ball reaches the pins.
c. A human pinsetter removes or interferes with any downed pin before it stops rolling.
d. A player bowls on the wrong lane or out of turn, or one player from each team on the pair of lanes
bowls on the wrong lane.
e. A player has physical contact with another person or moving object as the ball is being delivered and
before delivery is completed. In such case, the player has the option to accept the resulting pinfall or
have a dead ball called.
f. Any pin is moved or knocked down as a player delivers the ball but before the ball reaches the pins.
g. A delivered ball comes in contact with a foreign obstacle.
8/1

J_w73 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 13, 2009, 05:06:39 PM »

d. A player bowls on the wrong lane or out of turn, or one player from each team on the pair of lanes bowls on the wrong lane.

That is why there needs to be clarification from USBC.
He technically did bowl on the wrong lane even though he intended to bowl on the correct lane.

The decision would depend on whether the intention to bowl on the correct lane has anything to do with it or if you go with the fact that his ball was bowled on the wrong lane.

I would say that you can't go with the intent(because intent could be ambiguous) and have to go with what actually happened. Bowler bowled on the wrong lane.. dead ball.. redo the shot.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

AngloBowler · « **Reply #20 on:** August 14, 2009, 04:25:07 AM »

d. A player bowls on the wrong lane or out of turn, or one player from each team on the pair of lanes

It's not about where you intend to deliver the ball, it's about where that ball, in fact, goes. He delivered the ball on the wrong lane, which makes it a dead ball, how he achieved this (perhaps achieve is the wrong word in this context) is not relevant.
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Reporting from England

Pinbuster · « **Reply #21 on:** August 14, 2009, 06:30:11 AM »

From my point of view he bowled on the correct lane. His ball simply ended up on the wrong lane.

He was up on the correct lane 13, started his approach on the correct lane 13, intended to deliver the ball onto lane 13. But the ball thru his own error was delivered to 14.

What if the ball had stuck on his hand and he had thrown it over the gutter cap onto lane 14. Would you call a dead ball then?

AngloBowler · « **Reply #22 on:** August 14, 2009, 07:42:58 AM »

quote:
What if the ball had stuck on his hand and he had thrown it over the gutter cap onto lane 14. Would you call a dead ball then?

Yes. I think you can only determine that the ball has been delivered into the playing area once it touches an object beyond the foul line (be it the lane, gutter, capping, etc.). I can see that this is a you have your opinion, and I have mine kind of situation.

I suppose I would ask, what if a bowler was having to stand on the approach for lane 13 in order to deliver the ball onto lane 14, (so standing on 13 intending to hit 14) what would be your interpretation of that situation?
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Reporting from England

Gazoo · « **Reply #23 on:** August 14, 2009, 08:22:57 AM »

"crosses the foul line into playing territory"

Lane 13 is the "playing territory" which is the out USBC will probably take and rule he bowled on the wrong lane.

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"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"

J_w73 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 14, 2009, 09:57:29 AM »

I love rule debates.. It lets you see how people think... and how people like to have different perceptions of reality.

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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #25 on:** August 14, 2009, 10:01:01 AM »

quote:
d. A player bowls on the wrong lane or out of turn, or one player from each team on the pair of lanes

It's not about where you intend to deliver the ball, it's about where that ball, in fact, goes. He delivered the ball on the wrong lane, which makes it a dead ball, how he achieved this (perhaps achieve is the wrong word in this context) is not relevant.
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Reporting from England

agreed 100%... I wonder if the USBC will see it the same way.

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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

JohnP · « **Reply #26 on:** August 14, 2009, 10:31:06 AM »

quote:
I suppose I would ask, what if a bowler was having to stand on the approach for lane 13 in order to deliver the ball onto lane 14, (so standing on 13 intending to hit 14) what would be your interpretation of that situation?

He was up on lane 14. It doesn't make any difference where he was standing. He delivered the ball on 14, it's a legal delivery on the correct lane. -- JohnP

bassace · « **Reply #27 on:** August 14, 2009, 02:29:33 PM »

quote:
quote:
d. A player bowls on the wrong lane or out of turn, or one player from each team on the pair of lanes

It's not about where you intend to deliver the ball, it's about where that ball, in fact, goes. He delivered the ball on the wrong lane, which makes it a dead ball, how he achieved this (perhaps achieve is the wrong word in this context) is not relevant.
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Reporting from England

agreed 100%... I wonder if the USBC will see it the same way.

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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

We had it happen in a league I was secretary of two years ago. I contacted rules department. USBC ruled it a foul.
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"So here's my sound advice: shut your trap, get a life, and make a quick run to the store so you can buy yourself a clue." - Uncle Crusty to Mike James 9/15/08

J_w73 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 14, 2009, 11:01:47 PM »

a dead ball .. or a foul..
in this situation there isn't a possibility of a foul. The bowler never crossed the foul line with any body part.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

themachine300 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 15, 2009, 12:30:12 AM »

So what if I was bowling on lane 13, the lanes are super dry and I have to loft the gutter cap of both 13 and 12. Its not uncommon. If I don't get enough air and it lands in the gutter of 12, would you call a dead ball? I wouldn't in that case, and I wouldn't in this one either
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www.bowlingsolutions.com

Bowl to win!!!

Move left, hook it more.....

Tommy Jones and Kenny Simard are Gamecock fans...are you???

batbowler · « **Reply #30 on:** August 15, 2009, 12:46:06 AM »

He bowled on the wrong lane, redo on correct lane! He intended to bowl on correct lane, but the key is the ball went down the wrong lane! What's so difficult about this? This is what's wrong with this site, is that common sense has been taken out of our conversations! We look for things to argue or find faults in! It's ok to debate, but it's clear that the ball went down the wrong lane!
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Author Topic: Rules question (Read 9630 times)

Rick Wunder

Rules question

J_w73

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Rick Wunder

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Pinbuster

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J_w73

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AngloBowler

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Pinbuster

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AngloBowler

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Gazoo

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J_w73

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J_w73

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JohnP

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bassace

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J_w73

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themachine300

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batbowler

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