BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: star on September 06, 2018, 04:22:23 PM
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Just been skimming through this from Mo Pinel.
I haven’t seen it before and was wondering what others thoughts are.
Some new conclusions from the new rules for weight holes.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOOZdetR2Fs
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Curious why he compared a pin up 3.75" pin to pap to a 5" pin down. Seems the flare in oil of a 3.75" pin to pap for a pin down would be similar distance in flare when migrating in oil vs dry of the 3.75 pin up.… .and a 5" pin up would decrease flare in oil distance to dry like the pin down.
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Thanks for the link.
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What he said about symmetrical has been true for decades. What he said about assyms has been true for decades. What was really informational was the talk about migration. That tickled the nerd in me.
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Axis Migration is fun. If the customer is willing to put in the time and the money, there's a lot a pro shop operator can do to help their game. What's amazing is he continues to talk about the same information for now decades and its like the public takes it in piece at a time lol. Whats even more amazing is we had a post about plugging a weight hole and "magically" getting more back end motion. This continues to prove, STATIC WEIGHTS DO NOT MATTER in ball motion.
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Axis Migration is fun. If the customer is willing to put in the time and the money, there's a lot a pro shop operator can do to help their game. What's amazing is he continues to talk about the same information for now decades and its like the public takes it in piece at a time lol. Whats even more amazing is we had a post about plugging a weight hole and "magically" getting more back end motion. This continues to prove, STATIC WEIGHTS DO NOT MATTER in ball motion.
One day, I'm going to go into the lab and focus on this stuff. Thinking about building a small shop in the basement, so your guy ID might crawl out of the 00's and into the current decade lol
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I liked the comment that if you have a symmetric ball and no wt. hole,bring your spare ball. I have 2 symmetric balls in the bag,no wt.hole and have zero carry issues with them what so ever. I think Mo is a very smart business man who makes it sound like reinventing the wheel. On the other hand there were parts of his presentation that were very informative so you kinda have to read between the lines.
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I liked the comment that if you have a symmetric ball and no wt. hole,bring your spare ball. I have 2 symmetric balls in the bag,no wt.hole and have zero carry issues with them what so ever. I think Mo is a very smart business man who makes it sound like reinventing the wheel. On the other hand there were parts of his presentation that were very informative so you kinda have to read between the lines.
Exactly. Years ago under Morich Mo said they only make asymmetric bowling balls because that's all you need for today's oils and conditions. Then magically everything changed and he started using one of Brunswick symmetric cores on his equipment because things changed again and bowlers needed symmetric cores. Change being sales.
You have to figure out what is informative and what is "sales".
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I liked the comment that if you have a symmetric ball and no wt. hole,bring your spare ball. I have 2 symmetric balls in the bag,no wt.hole and have zero carry issues with them what so ever. I think Mo is a very smart business man who makes it sound like reinventing the wheel. On the other hand there were parts of his presentation that were very informative so you kinda have to read between the lines.
You misheard him.
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What I also found somewhat contradictive is Mo's comment on how you have to come around the ball for hook and higher tilt is best. He's been preaching that for awhile. I thought the point of asymm's is you program the reaction with the ball/layout for the release used and up the backer's need a short val angle. I found asymm's don't like release changes where that's the advantage of symmetrical.
Now I do know bowler's that can't come around the ball to save their lives and other's that spin the crap out of it so you have to not fall for the sales pitch but one thing Mo said I do agree with is the sky is not falling.
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I liked the comment that if you have a symmetric ball and no wt. hole,bring your spare ball. I have 2 symmetric balls in the bag,no wt.hole and have zero carry issues with them what so ever. I think Mo is a very smart business man who makes it sound like reinventing the wheel. On the other hand there were parts of his presentation that were very informative so you kinda have to read between the lines.
You misheard him.
Maybe I like symmetrical balls, I don't like asymmetrical balls. Good,bring your spare ball,get you're ass kicked by everybody.
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Spare ball comment was also made in reference to pin down vs pin up layouts. Take it for what you will. Especially when for the comparison he uses a 3.75" pin up vs a 5" pin down. Apples to not apples
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Larger val angles have their place. It's just a matter of knowing when to transition to a smaller val angle. I have an X with a 5*65 on it, and if I do cut the heads too much, it's Dime City. I step in, grab a Drift 5*35, and start whacking them again.
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Don't get me wrong as I'm not a Mo basher. I think he is a very polarizing figure in the bowling world and a wizard with core dynamics but in the end it's all business. More power to him but I'm a skeptic and I have to be in order to try to make the best decisions for my game.
the other issue I have is most pro shops will not offer to figure all that is needed for the bowler unless they spend 500 bucks for a ball. most bowler's will migrate to the cheaper shops who will just slap holes in a ball and send you on you're way. So the good shops file for bankruptcy and the cheap shops make a killing. Sure you can work harder for free but you won't keep up. So now it really becomes up to the bowler to figure out what really works for them.
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I just think it's funny how it gets more complicated but the usbc tried to simplify it.
Seems like the old way of measuring everything was based on the statics.
Now nothing matters and we gotta video tape ourselves to get the right tilt...
I'm just gotta keep slapping holes on my stuff I guess 🙄🤣🤣🤣
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Sales guy pitch coming up. Avert your eyes if staffer words hurt you.
This rule couldn't come at a better time for me. 1, I hardly ever use weight holes, so I think I may just have to plug a small hole in my Booyah. Nothing else in my bag has holes.
2. I have on the way, from top to bottom, Sumo SE, Truth Tour, Dream On, 2 Tacticals, Badger, HB, Boost, Shadow Ops, After Dark Pearl. May throw a Contniuum in there as well. The big symmetricals on top were already planned out to be 4*30 because the TT seems to be better the stronger you drill it, and the core in the Sumo is a monster already.
The truths that we already knew for years and years have been there. Now, they're just being enforced by rules. We're going to see a large drop off in symmetricals and more assyms made just to get around the whole no hole rule. More lower intermediate diff core designs will pop up (.008 to .012) and that will become the way of things. In our camp, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the Missing Link core come back. Bump up the intermediate diff and have a pretty handy low end ball.
Guys like Mo and Nick are way too smart to let this rule stop them from getting the motion they desire.
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After viewing this video I think that there is a value-added marketing opportunity here for ball companies and PSOs.
If Radical (or any ball manufacturer) can convince bowlers that, under the new rules, knowing their PAP and axis tilt specs are more important than ever, than they should offer the service of measuring those specs as part of a ball purchase ... or maybe as part of a demo day (for a price, of course.)
This could be used as an effort to educate bowlers about layout "myths" while also maximizing ball motion for them under the new rules.
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This is the exact stuff that is pushing me out of the game. This ball, that ball, this layout, that layout, this pattern, that pattern, this surface, that surface ...... give me a freakin' break already. I needed weightholes but now I can't have weightholes after spending $1500+ on equipment. Now I need to plug it or start over? Somehow, someway that is going to preserve the lane condition according to the USBC in an email I received. Who are these new rules supposed to target and what do they hope to accomplish other than running us middle-aged guys off. (We are the ones with the money BTW ...... so the proprietors better wake up)
Address the REAL issues already !!!! 2 HANDED BOWLERS GENERATING 600RPM BLOWING APART EVERY PATTERN THEY TOUCH AND MEGA-WALLS THAT PERMIT THE USE OF HOOK MONSTERS (OR THE COMBINATION OF BOTH). Watch the house pros throwing their Kingpin Max (or any other hook monster) over 20 in practice and you have bowling in 2018. No wonder that patterns don't hold up and become over/under train wrecks. Eliminate the 2 handers and mega-wall shots (taper is good but c'mon man !!) and TADA !!!!! Bowling is fixed !! It's affordable again !! You don't need a 4 ball roller full of the latest and greatest to take to your beer league... people can complete on a smaller budget and spend money on linage and drinks instead of $250 on something that is now illegal or "outdated" (load of B.S. - equipment will last years if properly maintained - that's a biggie for people on fixed budgets) in 6 months.
I have been bowling for 40+ years and I am ready to pack it in. It's not sour grapes, its not butt-hurt .... its just plain disgust. This game basically saved my life 20+ years ago and now it's trashed. Its a simple lack of oversight by the USBC that could be easily remedied with a few rule changes about how the GAME is played and not the equipment.
F IT. I'd rather tee up a Titleist anyway then spend my time in a greasy smelling bowling alley
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Pin over bridge, CG in palm, discussion over. If you cant control that on 90% of THS, then you shouldn't be bowling and it take statics out of question.
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Bowling was screwed long before 2 handers. I wish people would stop putting the whole blame on a style. If you think that 2 handers are the problem, then you're the problem yourself. We need to demand a fair playing field and make them tougher.
Now, that's not to say make them Woody Demma tough, just make them less easy.
That reminds me, I need to go bowl some of his stuff. It's been a minute.
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I don't think Mo's presentation is geared toward anyone who wants to bring one ball to a THS league and bowl. Nothing in the new rules stops anyone from doing that (and having a fun night out once a week.)
I concede the point that the new rules AFFECT those THS bowlers by imposing an expense to plug their equipment. And, as I've said in other posts, when THS bowlers plug their equipment and see a little less motion they will most likely resurface their ball more aggressively and then what the hell is the point of all this?
I think Mo's presentation is for bowlers in sport shot leagues, juniors, college prep, coaches, etc., who need to know how the new USBC specs affect their game and their chance to compete. These people bowl on conditions where subtle differences do indeed affect carry percentage.
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Pin over bridge, CG in palm, discussion over. If you cant control that on 90% of THS, then you shouldn't be bowling and it take statics out of question.
Agreed.
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"This ball/style/pattern/rule is ruining the game"- same guys who don't bowl for money, nor practices, and has had the same average since '93
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"This ball/style/pattern/rule is ruining the game"- same guys who don't bowl for money, nor practices, and has had the same average since '93
House shot has ruined it. Prove me wrong lol.
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"This ball/style/pattern/rule is ruining the game"- same guys who don't bowl for money, nor practices, and has had the same average since '93
Yep and most of the people who say make it harder for everyone live in some town of 7000 people two hour+ drive from the nearest sport pattern league and still complain. But sure lets bend over backwards for the people who chose to live in the sticks. Whine whine no jobs, whine whine bowling too easy. Hint if you join civilization there are more sports pattern and scratch leagues then you can shake a stick at.
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"This ball/style/pattern/rule is ruining the game"- same guys who don't bowl for money, nor practices, and has had the same average since '93
House shot has ruined it. Prove me wrong lol.
House shot is the only chance you have of getting new blood into the sports side. Sure you can lay out the US Open pattern for all open bowling but when adult males start barely beating their little kids the house ball is only ball they will ever throw and less frequently as well.
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I’ve said it before, and yes, I’ll keep on saying it.
Bowling got far too technical. FAR too technical. Like, WAAAAY FAR too technical.
No, I’m no longer shouting that we should “go backâ€, that ship has sailed. What I am saying is bowling is one of those rare things that was better in a simpler form.
Technological improvements are good, up to a point. Past that point, it just becomes change for changes sake. Bowling actually passed that point sometime in the 1980’s.
(Yes, I like my modern car, and my refrigerator, and my connected WiFi tv. That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m talking about is, do you want a great, technologically advanced beer, or just a simple, regularly brewed one that tastes good? Me, I’ll take the good tasting one)
Now, bowling is what it is. We’ve given our “simple and innocent†sport over to technological “advances†and “improvementsâ€, all while trying to make things better, never realizing that it was the simplicity of it that made it beautiful to begin with.
Take it for what it’s worth. I loved bowling when I got started with my old Manhattan Rubber ball in the 1970’s, and I love it still. I just wish things hadn’t progressed the way they have. I honestly think things would have been better if things had stayed simpler.
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I’ve said it before, and yes, I’ll keep on saying it.
Bowling got far too technical. FAR too technical. Like, WAAAAY FAR too technical.
No, I’m no longer shouting that we should “go backâ€, that ship has sailed. What I am saying is bowling is one of those rare things that was better in a simpler form.
Technological improvements are good, up to a point. Past that point, it just becomes change for changes sake. Bowling actually passed that point sometime in the 1980’s.
(Yes, I like my modern car, and my refrigerator, and my connected WiFi tv. That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m talking about is, do you want a great, technologically advanced beer, or just a simple, regularly brewed one that tastes good? Me, I’ll take the good tasting one)
Now, bowling is what it is. We’ve given our “simple and innocent†sport over to technological “advances†and “improvementsâ€, all while trying to make things better, never realizing that it was the simplicity of it that made it beautiful to begin with.
Take it for what it’s worth. I loved bowling when I got started with my old Manhattan Rubber ball in the 1970’s, and I love it still. I just wish things hadn’t progressed the way they have. I honestly think things would have been better if things had stayed simpler.
Did enjoy recently throwing the old man's Amflite MagicLine even though its a 13.3lber. Still viable in the dry house I bowl. Sadly at that weight going to be relegated to swing practice or when I get older than that ball is now. Rubber hits better than polyester imo (might get heavier one someday, hit way better than my 14lb old viz-a-ball). I do enjoy throwing the gems even if supposed to own the same just released super whiz bang ball as every other chuckle head. Because score and $$$ = everything.
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"This ball/style/pattern/rule is ruining the game"- same guys who don't bowl for money, nor practices, and has had the same average since '93
I stand by my statement.
- I quit bowling for money when it became a carry contest. The 2 handed style REALLY exploits this.
- I quit bowling for money when my local organization decided to turn its head at sport/challenge leagues being sanctioned as regular. The USBC was advised and did NOTHING.
- I quit bowling for money when I am forced to GIVE PINS in sweepers to local Hall of Fame inductees with averages from unsanctioned sport leagues.
- I quit bowling for money when the city tourney puts out a sport shot and forces us to use our 220 wall shot average against HOF MEMBERS and NATIONAL TITLE HOLDERS.
- I quit bowling for money when the same people always CROSS EACH OTHER in local and state competitions while the rest of us "donaters" are forced to deal with people just out for the experience or lack knowledge of how to play a flatter condition.
All this happens consistently and has happened multiple times. The USBC was advised and did nothing so you can see why I think they can take their rules that will cost me money and shove them you know where.
Bowling is now recreation for me. I'll play jackpots and bowl the occasional "fun" tourney with friends. The other 6 people left that will have not been run off by crap rules and 2 handed B.S. can bowl each other for "real" money in their "sport". THe proprietors can fight over their business. They might even get a league with 3 teams in it !!
OK .......... rant over WHEW !!! :o
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Hi tech cores arent the problem, nor are 2 handers. The problem is that high friction shells blow up any lane pattern too quickly. Advancements in oils havent been able to combat sanded, or even box condition resin shells. Polyester shells, or even urethane at 4000 grit would force players to play the pattern initially, rather than blow it up. If a high rev player can square up enough initially until they open up, they deserve to score.
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If a high rev player can square up enough initially until they open up, they deserve to score.
I agree 100% with this statement.
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If you are bowling handicap leagues and tournaments, you are playing at a recreational level, and really shouldnt expect to be making money. The purpose of handicap is to level the playing field rather than reward the most talented.
Two handers arent the problem either. They are simply a product of a high friction environment that rewards high rev rates to a great degree
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Hi tech cores arent the problem, nor are 2 handers. The problem is that high friction shells blow up any lane pattern too quickly. Advancements in oils havent been able to combat sanded, or even box condition resin shells.
It was literally impossible to "open them up" for the past two years at USBC Nationals. Why? The oil. Pros are able to open up their patterns because they have 2-3x the revolutions of us league bowlers and they can hit a spot 2-3x smaller than we can with 2-3x the accuracy.
The overwhelming majority of bowlers can't repeat the same shot, with enough revrate to breakdown the thicker oils on these tough patterns that are used for these tournaments.
If you get down to the sole root of the complaints that bowlers have with the game being "too easy" or "unfair cause of two handers and equipment", it's always anecdotal. There's plenty of places you can choose to bowl where it's not easy. Even if you were to establish an average for 21 games then seek out tournaments as a weekend warrior.
But it's a lot easier to put the blame on people who are scoring at ease than it is to accept that you physically cannot do what it takes to be an elite player. Whether that's putting 600rpms on it, or splitting hairs like Barnes & Duke.
The biggest benefit to easier patterns is all the friction on the edges that makes people much better spare shooters than what they really are. Guys don't even look at anything for left side spares, just slow down, wind up on it and let the lane guide it to the pins on the left. For the 3, 6, 9, & 10 pin, just move accordingly and chuck it to the right. If you miss a little, added friction "squares up" your ball for the corner pins. If you miss a left, the puddle in the middle gives you 5 more feet of skid before your ball sees the lane.
....but that's a whole new can of worms that nobody wants to admit to/talk about
I understand the goal for everyone isn't to be an elite player, but it should be to have fun. Usually when humans don't find something fun anymore, they quit doing it and move onto something else. It just gets so F'N old hearing people complain for 10-20-30-40-60+ years of how little they enjoy the game.
I understand all of your plights and gripes with the game, I really do... It's just that this self-loathing bowler shtick does nothing but drive away the bowlers who can't stand to be around the negativity. About 90% of my friends that I've had for the past 15 years are competitive high-level bowlers that weekend warrior 30+ weeks a year in addition to 2-4 leagues a week. They don't share the attitudes of the people who are complaining the most about "what's wrong with the game". They just shoe up and fill frames.
Look everywhere and you'll find that some of the biggest complainers are barely participants.
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I love the game today. Only thing wrong with it is all the lanes closing. Probably due to as you say a bunch of people that only care about bowling the sport or more specifically money and being so insufferable they wonder why league bowling is dying. So much easier to bowl and enjoy yourself with family than deal with people who mostly just suck (ok to be fair people in league I was in were very laid back and cool but not bowling on your own schedule sucks). Glad the sport side is there don't get me wrong but that is where most the bellyaching is coming from. I don't even let the USBC bother me any more as they are largely irrelevant to the game side. The sport sure needs the game a lot more than vice versa especially as league revenue continues to decline. I am just happy to have a hobby that is going to possibly prolong my life and life quality instead of shorten it like so many others. Last thing I want is to turn it into a job or something that is a hassle. Demographics are very weird right now (giant older and younger generation but small middle generation) and things will sort itself out hopefully in a good way.
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If blowing up the pattern is such a problem why isn't using low flare, urethane, or plastic to alter the pattern considered the same problem? At the end of the day it still falls under pattern integrity which is a huge reason for this change by USBC.
Pattern integrity also is affected by surface. Taking 180 grit to a less flaring ball that doesn't have a huge flare increasing weight hole will still allow the bowlers to put a hole in the pattern. Plenty of bowlers working together at nationals with a lot of surface on one ball for just that reason. Along with others using plastic etc to push the oil where needed.
USBC said the rules changes wouldn't affect scores, only hope to help with pattern integrity.......which must be house shots since the majority of the sanctioning body only bowls on their regular house shot and nothing else. I guess now I will call my house shot a "league pattern" or "league condition" to sound more sport compliant.
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USBC said the rules changes wouldn't affect scores, only hope to help with pattern integrity
I thought the whole thing with motion holes was mainly to keep no thumbers from being able to turn the ball whatever way and have basically a motion hole in different places during competition. Hard to keep up with what side of their mouth they are talking out of admittedly lol.
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Hi tech cores arent the problem, nor are 2 handers. The problem is that high friction shells blow up any lane pattern too quickly. Advancements in oils havent been able to combat sanded, or even box condition resin shells. Polyester shells, or even urethane at 4000 grit would force players to play the pattern initially, rather than blow it up. If a high rev player can square up enough initially until they open up, they deserve to score.
The PWBA tour don't blow patterns up near as fast as the PBA tour, using the same equipment and just as much, if not more surface. That's just a fact.
Their rev rates don't force them in near as much, leveling of the depletion throughout the lane.
Using the two handed style creates more players using a higher rev rate than what people would have if they had to take the time to learn to curve it a lot traditionally. It's like finding a cheat code for a video game to take you to level 20 in an instant.
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Agree totally about the women. Also true generally for seniors. However there have been plenty of high reving one handers who immediately move left and blow up the middles for several years. The pros figured it out, and most of them have gone to lower axis rotations and to some extent urethane equipment in order to stay away from the middle longer.
There is a difference between a pattern breaking down over a number of games, as opposed to blowing up from everyone playing everywhere right out of the gate. Modern shells break down patterns too quickly under the best of circumstances . The super high rev rates of many modern playersmakes the problem worse by allowing them to not having to play the pattern. We were seeing this start to happen long before the rise of the two hander.
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People have "pattern integrity" complaints like every time they bowl, it's US Open burn squad cause theirs a two hander in the building. Most of the two hander hate I see comes from the fact that they have it "easier" when the lanes are tighter/wetter because they can rely on hook at the end of the pattern where the average player "max's out" at a point on the lanes where they can no longer go left, for righties, and still get the ball to hook and finish like the two handers.
Throw in the fact that the average two hander in 2018 is about 17-24 years old, still has their youth, weighs about 130-140lbs soaking set, and you have a huge ego bruise to the "REAL MEN" who drove their truck to league, hate iPhones, and millenials (who they confuse with the Gen-Z'ers who they actually have a problem with).
50% real issues......100% ego bruising........this is the controversy around hate for two handed bowling. (I am guilty of this as well)
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2 handers are just a unique exsmple of power player. Their success at the pro level is based on the same thing that traditional power players like Rash and Tacket have learned. If you watch, nobody is standing left and throwing right on long slick patterns. As an old low rev stroker, I like nothing better than playing against an out and back power player on a long slick fresh pattern.
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Its getting old reading people complain about 2 handers. Move on, smile... life is too short
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Its getting old reading people complain about 2 handers. Move on, smile... life is too short
2 handers is like the only thing I never complain about. May eventually have to learn how to do it to teach my son. When I watch somebody like Belmo bowl I don't say no fair, I say wow what an efficient way to transfer energy and power to the bowling ball. Nothing is stopping anyone from bowling 2 handed themselves if they think its cheating (other than their own mental and physical limitations). Just because you can't do it doesn't make it cheating. Whole lot of get off my lawn.
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It's almost the same as someone that's using a conventional grip complaining about people using just their finger tips. Buncha cheaters.
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Well, I do remember them complaining when we started using two finger holes instead of the one.
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It's almost the same as someone that's using a conventional grip complaining about people using just their finger tips. Buncha cheaters.
Exactly. Male bowlers treat their speed/rev rate & like "D-size" and the figurative "Penis Envy" is real. It's a huge ego bruise to these men watching some 120lb kid fire nuclear bombs down the lane at 18mph, 575 rpms and sending 4 messengers a game. It's not about "cheating", it's about feeling inferior.
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You know, I love this sport, and realize that I only bowl the pins. I can best anyone on any condition, if I choose to keep myself physically fit. Work out, focus on certain muscle groups, stretch accordingly when at the center, really commit. Reason I say that is because the mind is sharper than my body at this point in my life. (Never thought I'd say that at 40, but facts is facts). I KNOW when to make certain adjustments, and how to do them, but if the body can't do it, then what's my option? Quit? Bitch and moan?
There's a reason Amleto still looks like a 30 year old bowling. He's fit AF.
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There's a nice chunk of pros that recommitted themselves to fitness and their careers are seeing a nice little uptick because of it. The guys keeping themselves in great shape seem to be sharper than ever in their 50s like Parker, Amleto, Pete, and Walter (who might be throwing it as good as he ever has RN). These guys stay in great shape.
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Hi tech cores arent the problem, nor are 2 handers. The problem is that high friction shells blow up any lane pattern too quickly. Advancements in oils havent been able to combat sanded, or even box condition resin shells. Polyester shells, or even urethane at 4000 grit would force players to play the pattern initially, rather than blow it up. If a high rev player can square up enough initially until they open up, they deserve to score.
The PWBA tour don't blow patterns up near as fast as the PBA tour, using the same equipment and just as much, if not more surface. That's just a fact.
Their rev rates don't force them in near as much, leveling of the depletion throughout the lane.
Using the two handed style creates more players using a higher rev rate than what people would have if they had to take the time to learn to curve it a lot traditionally. It's like finding a cheat code for a video game to take you to level 20 in an instant.
Creating power has always been a cheat code on house shots, two handed or one. That said, I know very very few local two handers that compete at a high level on challenging patterns. The majority get exposed, and the ones that don't are guys that work just as hard on their game as the one handers.
There is no cheat code to getting better at bowling. Taking advantage of patterns that are DESIGNED to be taken advantage of is simple efficiency. But challenging conditions quickly separate the bowlers from the throwers.
Don't like bowlers that take advantage of their environment? Find another environment. Just like two handers, I know exactly what conditions give me an advantage, and I seek those tournaments out. If there are no situations where you have an advantage, the only person to blame is you.
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i remember 45 years when a young kid showed up on tour, they said he threw the ball to hard, jerked thru the shot to much, hooked half the lane (that was a lot back then) and would never be consistent enough to make it on tour. Mark Roth was just able to do what no one else could do, proved it worked and the "haters" hated.
I'll be the first to admit I complain about two handers as much as anyone, but, if i could throw it like them I would! The game is evolving and like it or not, some of us are going to be left behind. Yeah, sucks to get old.
FWIW, back in the day, as hard as we tried, my friends and i could never do what Roth did either. Same situation, different era.
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All about environment. Lane finishes were getting harder in the late 60's, capped by the introduction of ultra hard epoxy astro lane. The result was that lanes started to break down in the heads first rather than down lane in the track. Roths extreme speed loft and turn took the heads out of play better than anyone else could with more traditional stroker styles. The further trend to shorter oil patterns and extreme dry back ends didnt hurt Roth at all, but paved the way for the next generation of cup wristed out and back power players.
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Hi tech cores arent the problem, nor are 2 handers. The problem is that high friction shells blow up any lane pattern too quickly. Advancements in oils havent been able to combat sanded, or even box condition resin shells. Polyester shells, or even urethane at 4000 grit would force players to play the pattern initially, rather than blow it up. If a high rev player can square up enough initially until they open up, they deserve to score.
The PWBA tour don't blow patterns up near as fast as the PBA tour, using the same equipment and just as much, if not more surface. That's just a fact.
Their rev rates don't force them in near as much, leveling of the depletion throughout the lane.
Using the two handed style creates more players using a higher rev rate than what people would have if they had to take the time to learn to curve it a lot traditionally. It's like finding a cheat code for a video game to take you to level 20 in an instant.
Creating power has always been a cheat code on house shots, two handed or one. That said, I know very very few local two handers that compete at a high level on challenging patterns. The majority get exposed, and the ones that don't are guys that work just as hard on their game as the one handers.
There is no cheat code to getting better at bowling. Taking advantage of patterns that are DESIGNED to be taken advantage of is simple efficiency. But challenging conditions quickly separate the bowlers from the throwers.
Don't like bowlers that take advantage of their environment? Find another environment. Just like two handers, I know exactly what conditions give me an advantage, and I seek those tournaments out. If there are no situations where you have an advantage, the only person to blame is you.
10 and 12 year old kids can create more rev rate throwing it two handed. They CANNOT rev it that way, if they threw it traditionally without lots of practice and time put forth. It's just plan facts.
Cheat code.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying they are cheating as there is nothing in the rules against doing it, just as there are nothing in the rules about using a cheat code in a video game. But denying the facts, is disingenuous.
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Tommy,
Hoping the cheat code on our January pattern will be up 8 board with a Slate U-dot, Yellow dot or Angle. Might have another option or two that I have been waiting for decades to toss again. :)
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It will be interesting for sure!
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Wow, who called the fun police? These damn 10 year olds, their weak bones, and scrawnny little hands. Who do they think they are, revving the piss out of it to shoot 170 with 8 strikes in a Saturday morning youth league.
Someone, quick.... snatch the accomplishment from this little cheater while we're at it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwprwsEK2q8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwprwsEK2q8)
....14lb plastic ball with only 2 holes in it btw.
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Wow, who called the fun police? These damn 10 year olds, their weak bones, and scrawnny little hands. Who do they think they are, revving the piss out of it to shoot 170 with 8 strikes in a Saturday morning youth league.
Someone, quick.... snatch the accomplishment from this little cheater while we're at it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwprwsEK2q8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwprwsEK2q8)
....14lb plastic ball with only 2 holes in it btw.
Opinionated hyperbole, that really adds to the topic. Have any real facts to add to supplement your opinion?
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Can't have it both ways. Can't call something "athletic" when it's the very way, as you described, a scrawny little 10 year old, can do it.
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LEFT HANDED AND TWO HANDED? JUST GIVE HIM ALL THE TITLES NOW!
I remember when bowling was fun for me too!
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LEFT HANDED AND TWO HANDED? JUST GIVE HIM ALL THE TITLES NOW!
That throne belongs to the GOAT, King Jesper!
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Can't have it both ways. Can't call something "athletic" when it's the very way, as you described, a scrawny little 10 year old, can do it.
There's a bunch of scrawny 10 year old football, basketball, track & field, baseball, wrestling, jiu-jitsu, volleyball, lacrosse, hockey players (And Bowlers Shocker!) that are much more athletic than most adults.
Where the hell do you think athleticism comes from? From the big Sky-Daddy upstairs? LOL..... It comes from repeating athletic motions that grow fast twitch muscle fibers from a young age. Some call it exercise, some call it practice.
....sorry for the masked vulgarity, I was triggered like a two handed bowler throwing messenger 6 pairs away from me.
And to finish the two handed point that it always comes back to... There's good two handers and there's bad two handers. The people saying "two handed bowling is ruining the sport" or "it's cheating" are solely focused on the success of 5-10 outliers that make up 0.00025 percent of the registered USBC bowlers. Those guys might bowl with 1% of this website in 1-2 tournaments a year and there's even a greater chance that you'll cross with them, much less be affected by their lane play.
If you're worried about a future of 8 two handers to a pair on a league night with 5-man teams then, I understand. But by then, it'll be time to join the Monday Morning Holy Rollers Senior leagues.
Have fun kids! (*Unless bowling)
Follow your dreams kids! (*Unless it's to bowl like Belmo)
You can be anything you want in life if you work hard kids! (*unless you wanna be a lousy cheating 2 handed bowler)
(https://media.makeameme.org/created/Oh-my-god-60uymz.jpg)
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DP3,
Here's the crux of your argument. A 10 year old boy will never beat LeBron James on the court. Can't say that about bowling. Please try again.
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This thread ie starting to remind me of the 80s. I almost quit the game because of all those cup wristed crankers playing strike or no count while I spared myself into missed cuts. Glad I stuck with it though. By 95 I was making big bucks in the Masters and later high rollers. High point was outscoring Learn and Marshall by threading the needle at 15-20 while they went out and back. A lot of us straight players ( Boghosian, Queen, Ernie ) faired pretty well during late 90s, early 2000s. I could stillbe making money against the power players if age hadnt started to cath up with me.
The older I get, the better I was
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And the game continues to loose participation since the early 80's, but we keep chasing score and rev rate as a means to keep people in it.
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Loss in participation has never had anything to do with scoring pace, but that is as far as I want to go down this rabbit hole.
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The reality about a 10 year old bowler is that due to extremely easy house conditions there's shots where the same ball can go flush going straight up 3rd arrow and being leaked out to 5 from the 3rd arrow by the same bowler on back to back shots. Everyone gets a nut for 300 sometimes but if a 10 year old can out average you over the course of a season on that same shot, then that ten year old is better. You have stats and numbers to back it up. The pins however react to entry angle and the force of which the ball hits the pins. It doesn't know if a 10 year old threw it, or if a 6'4 220lb man with 4% body fat threw it.
With all of the focus on the bowler and not the physics of what happens after the foul line, it boils down to jealousy. Jealousy that someone can funnel hack their way to throwing a more powerful ball than you can generate "traditionally". Walter Ray is one of the most accurate bowlers that ever lived and he taught himself how to bowl two handed after 50 years of age. Even he can't turn it on and "cheat" his way to winning every week.
I think your argument of "cheating" would hold a lot more weight if there were more documented cases of traditional style bowlers converting over to two handing it and dominating. It doesn't happen. The two handers aren't cheating, it's just a different set of mechanics that cause them to shape the lane different. It's only "exploitable" in maybe 6 tournaments a year on the PBA tour where the people that can bend it from a lane over to the left have the best shot at getting through the late blocks with a 250+ look. At the league and recreational level this isn't an issue. Even in the overwhelming majority of competitive tournaments it's not an issue. If any tournament it's an issue is the 12. & Under and under 15 divisions where kids can generate "adult" speed and rev rates but eventually as they more up, everything levels out.
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Good point about roping one up 15 and leaking the next out to 5. The problem for anyone doing that is there are usually a couple of greek churches and 5 count buckets interspersed with the strikes when someone routinely sprays the ball that much. Your blind squirrel analogy is right on. I have seen a lot of sprayers make 12 good shots , but the next week they are back to spraying.
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Or the 10 year old that shot 300-630. What's the bigger threat to bowling? The 10 year old two handing a 12lb target zone? Or the house shot that's easy enough to shoot 300 on with a 12 lb plastic ball?
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12 lb anything blows my mind. Friend of mine who is a pretty good younger shooterwas having some wrist problems. Watched him blow a couple of racks using a polished 12 lb hyroad playing inside 15 on a 42 foot sport pattern. More hand than me, but not a power player by sny means
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As for the 300, 630 that has been a symtom of the game for 20 years since resin staeted blowing up patterns. I dont remember the first time I shot 300 with a sub 700, but it has happened several times. Worst I remember, shot 300 the second game in a 4 game league. Never got a double the last two. Shot about 860 for 4.
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If there's no rule against it, is it really cheating?
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If there's no rule against it, is it really cheating?
Guilty in the court of public opinion.... and I guess that is all that matters now-a-days.
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Again, read my post, NEVER did I say it was "cheating". Nothing in the rules against it.
Calling it a "cheat code" to being able to hook it, (liking it to a cheat code to advance a bunch of levels in a video game) is not calling someone a "cheater". Two very different things.
10 year olds who throw it two handed grow up to be adults who do. Lots more kids doing it because they can instantly hook it, without having to learn how to actually hook it. Reducing longevity in a life long participation sport at any level is a very dangerous proposition. Just because one 50 year old can do it, doesn't mean that the majority of kids who are currently bowling with this style, will be able to do it for the long haul. Life long participation sport people. You need to grow a niche sport with longevity, not a quick fix. You need to understand the demographic that bowling attracts.
If you don't think that extra hand on the ball makes a difference, ask Walter if it does.
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The "cheat code" analogy is severely flawed. It literally says CHEAT, and it IS a form of cheating while playing a video game. Not sure how one can suggest it isn't.
In terms of putting an extra hand on the ball, that hand does NOTHING with regards to adding revs to the shot. It is simply to stabilize the ball during delivery.
Throwing two handed is not easy. Even if you can generate the extra revs and get it on the lane, it isn't easy to control. Many people can't do it. Just as many people can't generate a high rev rate throwing the ball with the thumb in.
People used to use just one finger and a thumb. Should we be promoting that style still? Isn't that more pure? Why is there a "correct" way to throw a hook? Get over it.
Also, to compare basketball to bowling - ie. pro vs 10 year old. If you can't see the difference in the two sports... wow.
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If you can't understand that a 6 year old boy can throw his fathers 15lb bowling ball down a lane two handed, but can't traditionally, than there is no getting you to see logic.
Instead of calling it a "cheat code" that has your panties in a bunch how's this:
the "allow my 6 year old kid to throw a 15lb ball down the lane because I don't want to walk over to the ball rack and get a 6 lb ball, and teach him the proper way to actually bowl" code.
Walter Ray throws two handed later in blocks, cause why???
Use some "un"common sense man.
Keep drinking the kool-aid.
People who think only about today without any regard for the future, risk loosing their future.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdyH5GZvpZ4
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In golf , Was belly or anchored putting considered 'cheating'? How about Snead's original croquet style?
NOPE......not until a few years later when the USGA & R&A made rules that deemed it so.
Don't expect the USBC to do the same...……….
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If you can't understand that a 6 year old boy can throw his fathers 15lb bowling ball down a lane two handed, but can't traditionally, than there is no getting you to see logic.
Instead of calling it a "cheat code" that has your panties in a bunch how's this:
the "allow my 6 year old kid to throw a 15lb ball down the lane because I don't want to walk over to the ball rack and get a 6 lb ball, and teach him the proper way to actually bowl" code.
Walter Ray throws two handed later in blocks, cause why???
Use some "un"common sense man.
Keep drinking the kool-aid.
People who think only about today without any regard for the future, risk loosing their future.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdyH5GZvpZ4
LOOK AT ALL THAT JOY! KILL IT!
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I facepalmed so hard on the last page I broke my nose and shattered an orbital bone.
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DP3,
Here's the crux of your argument. A 10 year old boy will never beat LeBron James on the court. Can't say that about bowling. Please try again.
Maybe not LeBron James but maybe Klay Thompson
https://youtu.be/N3MpWbyV7xw
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If you can't understand that a 6 year old boy can throw his fathers 15lb bowling ball down a lane two handed, but can't traditionally, than there is no getting you to see logic.
Instead of calling it a "cheat code" that has your panties in a bunch how's this:
the "allow my 6 year old kid to throw a 15lb ball down the lane because I don't want to walk over to the ball rack and get a 6 lb ball, and teach him the proper way to actually bowl" code.
Walter Ray throws two handed later in blocks, cause why???
Use some "un"common sense man.
Keep drinking the kool-aid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdyH5GZvpZ4
And no, that ball is not 15 pounds. I just find it amazing that someone would complain about a method to throw the ball for those who may not be able to throw it "traditionally". I guess people without thumbs need not apply to your version of bowling.
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(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/019/304/old.jpg)
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So an entire industry must conform so a person in your analogy, without a thumb, wants to bowl? How many thumbless people want to bowl? Maybe we need to tap in to this market to help build numbers while we promote two handed bowling. I think we are missing a market here.
I know he wasn't throwing a 15lb ball in the video, because he's 3 years old using all his body weight to use an entirely too heavy object for his frame and age. Just asking for trouble.
Or better yet, I want to golf with the belly putters on tour. Makes me happy, and I find it fun. I should be able to do that. Kill joys for those that want to take that away.
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I facepalmed so hard on the last page I broke my nose and shattered an orbital bone.
Listen, you need to quit bowling. Can't have any no nosers ruining this sport.
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Bring the factual statistics of how the (as DP3 said) the .00025% of outlier bowlers who bowl two handed, is SAVING the game??
I'm all ears. Change my mind with FACTS and statistics, and NOT feelings.
Go...........
Total USBC participation, down.
Total USBC youth participants, down (although the USBC likes to point to junior gold as a sign of up tick, but doesn't represent true across the country, league participation).
Bowling centers closing at an alarming rate.
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And this is the fault of a delivery? Or grouchy old plebs making the bowling alley experience miserable AF from the moment you put your shoes on?
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And this is the fault of a delivery? Or grouchy old plebs making the bowling alley experience miserable AF from the moment you put your shoes on?
Are you even capable of posting anything but hyporbole?
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Here, more hyperbole, but I dare you to give me facts to prove me wrong.
The reason bowling is down at this moment in history is us. The generation that bowled in the 70s-early 00s are whiny lazy entitled pissers. The next generation of bowlers are going to be who save what we love. They're putting in the time and effort to better themselves and the game. WE are moving out of the Archie Bunker stages and into the Marshall Kent stages. Young men and women, not accepting that house shots are the only thing they can bowl on. Not letting social constructs dictate that bowlers are this way or that way.
We perpetuate this image of ourselves. The kids aren't going to continue our reign of self loathing and vilification we are known for.
Any time I see a child smiling and laughing at a bowling center, I feel like there may be hope for the sport. Then I come here and see this bullshot. If bowling fails, it's OUR fault, not the people throwing it with 2 hands.
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Fact of the matter is no one can provide facts stating what is the single cause of the decline of league participation. I can't show how two-handers are saving the game and you can't show how they are ruining the game.
And as has been stated several times on this site USBC doesn't really care about the local league scene. They don't care if the junior program at the local privately owned center has 20 kids or 100 kids. What they care about is the sport as seen through their rose colored glasses. And in that world, junior participation is up. More kids are seeing bowling as competition at a high level than ever before. Parents don't see bowling as a day care for their kids on Saturday anymore, which is what a majority of junior programs were seen as.
I'm sorry a two-hander took your lunch money, or took your place in the local Hall of Fame or perhaps pushed the last quarter at the senior league and now you don't have coffee money. I don't know why you have such a disdain for a delivery method that is different. I bet you throw a full-roller also, those damn 3/4 guys are ruining everything.
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Are you even capable of posting anything but hyporbole?
No. I either stoop to the level of ridiculousness or match the level of logic depending on who's posting.
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Fact of the matter is no one can provide facts stating what is the single cause of the decline of league participation. I can't show how two-handers are saving the game and you can't show how they are ruining the game.
And as has been stated several times on this site USBC doesn't really care about the local league scene. They don't care if the junior program at the local privately owned center has 20 kids or 100 kids. What they care about is the sport as seen through their rose colored glasses. And in that world, junior participation is up. More kids are seeing bowling as competition at a high level than ever before. Parents don't see bowling as a day care for their kids on Saturday anymore, which is what a majority of junior programs were seen as.
I'm sorry a two-hander took your lunch money, or took your place in the local Hall of Fame or perhaps pushed the last quarter at the senior league and now you don't have coffee money. I don't know why you have such a disdain for a delivery method that is different. I bet you throw a full-roller also, those damn 3/4 guys are ruining everything.
Most of what you posted here is the best argument yet for bowling in unsanctioned leagues and tournaments. USBC can't operate without us league house hacks "funding" them though USBC yearly dues. And the USBC Open has become more and more of a feeding trough for the type of bowler that 95% of us will never be.
We need to either remove the shit at the top, namely Chad Murphy and replace the board with regular Joe bowlers or punt and find something else to do on Thursday nights.
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I regret ever caring about the USBC but am also glad I haven't gave them a dime in 20 years (had long layoff most of the time and only bowled just for fun leagues since). Why ruin the streak now?
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Fact of the matter is no one can provide facts stating what is the single cause of the decline of league participation. I can't show how two-handers are saving the game and you can't show how they are ruining the game.
And as has been stated several times on this site USBC doesn't really care about the local league scene. They don't care if the junior program at the local privately owned center has 20 kids or 100 kids. What they care about is the sport as seen through their rose colored glasses. And in that world, junior participation is up. More kids are seeing bowling as competition at a high level than ever before. Parents don't see bowling as a day care for their kids on Saturday anymore, which is what a majority of junior programs were seen as.
I'm sorry a two-hander took your lunch money, or took your place in the local Hall of Fame or perhaps pushed the last quarter at the senior league and now you don't have coffee money. I don't know why you have such a disdain for a delivery method that is different. I bet you throw a full-roller also, those damn 3/4 guys are ruining everything.
The HOF thing - check. Some other impressive accomplishments - check. Giving a da mn about the future of this sport - unfortunately.
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The decline of bowling started with 250$ bowling balls that hook if you drop kick em.I came up bowling in the early 70s.Would bowl 4 to 5 nights a week because it was cheap.Leagues and bowling balls to keep up with the game have become expensive.
Seemed like around 2000 bowling started going down it was like no one promoted bowling and the ABC quit checking lanes its like they lost control and Proprietors decided abc wasn't going to tell them how to run there business.
Then you have the majority of leagues are people over 50 who's parents may have bowled.Now they don't and whats left is 75% of your leagues are older bowlers who grew up with bowling in its hayday.Next time you bowl just look at who's bowling.
As far as the two hander one hander two finger fiasco,Doesn't bother me what does is the lame ass houseshots with 10 boards of stone dry friction.Its ridiculous in my town.Three centers owned by the same owner who puts same crap out at all three.
I think most of the bitching from older bowlers is not really jealousy they just want fair conditions to compete with the 20mph friction finders.Bowling has became an unfair sport with the advantage going to speed and friction.
You younger guys reading this just remember us old farts paved the way.Glad I got to bowl when it was good.Because I think when us boomers are gone you will be lucky to find 10 team leagues at any lanes.
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Said it perfectly and I grew up about the same time that you did. I haven't paid attention to the ages of league bowlers but thinking about it I agree that most seem to be 50 plus and many 60 plus. This could get real bad in ten years.
Some of the older guys that I know definitely have a problem with lack of oil. Their ball speed isn't high enough to use the high end balls effectively. I have heard of one senior league where the proprietor puts more oil on the lane and the retirees love it.
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Here in one senior league they put out less oil. They use this excuse old people like to see balls hook.Place is so far out of touch with reality.I am 57 throw around 15 to16 mph and rr 375 to 400 usually just throw entry level stuff.I can still compete at times but lots of my old friends have quit.
Its like the USBC wants to put the old folks out to pasture.Which is not what my business model would be.Without the older bowlers now bowling would be in big trouble.Which I think they are real close.
Its like they are trying to make it this big physical sport.So it may get in the Olympics.If you can't throw 20 mph an rr of 600 you need to go away.I watched a dang dart throwing tournament that payed 100 grand.Geez bowling can't hardly pay 10 grand unless its a major.
I do like what Mo says in the video about 80% percent of lane condition are illegal.
I do wish they would at least mandate 6 or 7 units of oil across the lane.3 units is about nothing with the equipment of today.He also said they are in the business of bowling and want people to succeed.If anything should have been changed its lane condition.Not the balls the new rules will change nothing to the integrity of lane patterns.Plus the mad scientist will just make stronger cores.Ok my rant is over.
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Bowling is declining because there's an entire generation with 50k+ college loan debt, advanced degrees, making $40k a year and rent is $1500-3000/mo for a 1 bedroom in all of the big cities that have the best opportunity for career advancement.
77% of Americans polled do not have over $500 in a savings account. 44% of Americans polled have less than $500 to their names. The average car note in the U.S. is $499/mo. Working class people can't afford hobbies anymore. They are one emergency away from being destitute.
Do I commit $150-200/mo in bowling leagues & equipment maintenance, or do I save the money and cut another bill? This is a common question the majority of people who "quit" had to ask themselves. It's just harder for people to admit in public that they quit due to a financial crunch. They instead blame a multitude of reasons, bowling related.
Or is this just more *hyperbole*?
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Bowling is declining because there's an entire generation with 50k+ college loan debt, advanced degrees, making $40k a year and rent is $1500-3000/mo for a 1 bedroom in all of the big cities that have the best opportunity for career advancement.
77% of Americans polled do not have over $500 in a savings account. 44% of Americans polled have less than $500 to their names. The average car note in the U.S. is $499/mo. Working class people can't afford hobbies anymore. They are one emergency away from being destitute.
Do I commit $150-200/mo in bowling leagues & equipment maintenance, or do I save the money and cut another bill? This is a common question the majority of people who "quit" had to ask themselves. It's just harder for people to admit in public that they quit due to a financial crunch. They instead blame a multitude of reasons, bowling related.
Or is this just more *hyperbole*?
Yet the same people have $1000 iPhone(with $150- $200 a month plan), $200 Nikes and a $600 car payment. Oh and most of these people with the high student loans have a degree that doesn't pay dick .
USBC needs to face facts, the younger generation just doesn't think bowling is cool.
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You just proved my point again. Everyone that left has priorities way more important than bowling. 30-40 years ago there was no such thing as a an internet bill, cell phone bill, FIOS bill, Netflix subscription, and the multitude of services, now bills, than the everyday adult in 2018 has. Living expenses have risen 300% since 1985 while the average salary with inflation has only risen 10%.
I stand by socioeconomic issues of the shrinking middle class bring the #1 issue of declining participation in bowling.
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Here, more hyperbole, but I dare you to give me facts to prove me wrong.
The reason bowling is down at this moment in history is us. The generation that bowled in the 70s-early 00s are whiny lazy entitled pissers. The next generation of bowlers are going to be who save what we love. They're putting in the time and effort to better themselves and the game. WE are moving out of the Archie Bunker stages and into the Marshall Kent stages. Young men and women, not accepting that house shots are the only thing they can bowl on. Not letting social constructs dictate that bowlers are this way or that way.
We perpetuate this image of ourselves. The kids aren't going to continue our reign of self loathing and vilification we are known for.
Any time I see a child smiling and laughing at a bowling center, I feel like there may be hope for the sport. Then I come here and see this bullshot. If bowling fails, it's OUR fault, not the people throwing it with 2 hands.
Bowling was an average participation sport at best, until the advent of the automatic pin-spotter. This invention is what thrust bowling into the lime light and popularized it. It then started to fall off in the 80's once other newer inventions like arcades, and video games, and cable TV and home computers fought for it's market base. Go look at the numbers and facts, relative to day in age.
The as you say, whiny, lazy, entitled pissers, are the only people who are keeping bowling alive, lol! They didn't want the short oil that the ABC came up with and subsequent scoring explosion. Just because they want to see some rules, you consider them whiny. You should also do a little fact checking as to the average age of bowlers who bowl SPORT leagues. It's middle aged.
The average age of a standard league bowler is still middle aged. Middle ages bowlers, the group you are bagging on, are the ONLY ones keeping bowling centers open. Youth league bowling is at an all time low. About the only youth bowling is from birthday parties. DO you want to guess as to the average age of the parents who's kids we should be seeing in youth bowling right now to help it grow? It's the millennial age group. It's the age group you are pontificating for.
As far as harder lane conditions; SPORT conditions (created in the early 2000's) were started by the very age group you are bagging on. They saw the drastic disconnect between ability and average, and said we need to come up with a product that better reflects ability.
Do you support your local sport leagues?
You are entitled to your opinions, but you should at least use some FACTS to base them off of, because you are way off with your age groups.
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Fact of the matter is no one can provide facts stating what is the single cause of the decline of league participation. I can't show how two-handers are saving the game and you can't show how they are ruining the game.
And as has been stated several times on this site USBC doesn't really care about the local league scene. They don't care if the junior program at the local privately owned center has 20 kids or 100 kids. What they care about is the sport as seen through their rose colored glasses. And in that world, junior participation is up. More kids are seeing bowling as competition at a high level than ever before. Parents don't see bowling as a day care for their kids on Saturday anymore, which is what a majority of junior programs were seen as.
I'm sorry a two-hander took your lunch money, or took your place in the local Hall of Fame or perhaps pushed the last quarter at the senior league and now you don't have coffee money. I don't know why you have such a disdain for a delivery method that is different. I bet you throw a full-roller also, those damn 3/4 guys are ruining everything.
LOL, taking my lunch money, cute!
I don't have a disdain for anything spmcgivern. Life is way to short for that. I can disagree with some ones point of view, but still like them and respect their opinion. Something that must be lost on certain people on here.
I have nothing, nothing against the individuals who throw two handed, just because they use two hands. They are bowling within the written rules as stated. I have a problem with a lack of rule that allows it to happen. two very different things.
I will say this. The average rev rate of a two handed player is much higher then the average rev rate of the traditional player. Rev rate and the subsequent higher ball speed and needed surface on a ball is what destroys pattern integrity, contrary to what the USBC wants to believe (cough, balance holes). We have a few DRASTIC changes coming down the pike in 2020, that WILL influence league participation. To what degree, we will see. These changes are a direct reflection of the two handed style, like it or not.
Who do you think had the higher rev rate and hooked it more and why, at 7 years old, Belmo or EJ Tackett? Think about it instead of just looking to throw shade.
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You just proved my point again. Everyone that left has priorities way more important than bowling. 30-40 years ago there was no such thing as a an internet bill, cell phone bill, FIOS bill, Netflix subscription, and the multitude of services, now bills, than the everyday adult in 2018 has. Living expenses have risen 300% since 1985 while the average salary with inflation has only risen 10%.
I stand by socioeconomic issues of the shrinking middle class bring the #1 issue of declining participation in bowling.
I haven't proven anything. I'm just stating that bowling isn't in decline because it's to expensive. Bowling is no more expensive now than it was 30 years ago when indexed for inflation. People just chose to spend their money elsewhere.
And by the way, "internet bill, cell phone bill, FIOS Bill, Netflix subscription" are not living expenses, they are luxuries. Just like that daily Starbucks visit, people are just choosing to spend their disposable income in other places.
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I don't have a disdain for anything spmcgivern. Life is way to short for that. I can disagree with some ones point of view, but still like them and respect their opinion. Something that must be lost on certain people on here.
I have nothing, nothing against the individuals who throw two handed, just because they use two hands. They are bowling within the written rules as stated. I have a problem with a lack of rule that allows it to happen. two very different things.
I will say this. The average rev rate of a two handed player is much higher then the average rev rate of the traditional player. Rev rate and the subsequent higher ball speed and needed surface on a ball is what destroys pattern integrity, contrary to what the USBC wants to believe (cough, balance holes). We have a few DRASTIC changes coming down the pike in 2020, that WILL influence league participation. To what degree, we will see. These changes are a direct reflection of the two handed style, like it or not.
Who do you think had the higher rev rate and hooked it more and why, at 7 years old, Belmo or EJ Tackett? Think about it instead of just looking to throw shade.
I get it. I will not shy away from those issues I feel need to be addressed by USBC, just as you won't. I have been trying to get my leagues to at least consider Challenge Patterns or something with a similar ratio. Guess which demographic doesn't want it..... the older "middle-aged" bowlers. The younger bowlers are more up to the challenge than the older bowlers. Perhaps it is style related. The older bowlers may not want to give away what they perceive as the higher scoring shot for them.
I used to run a monthly WTBA sport compliant tournament. Each month was a different shot based on the WTBA patterns. Older bowlers didn't come out. A majority of older bowlers told me they felt they couldn't compete with the younger bowler. Perhaps they are correct. Modern styles (aka younger bowlers) appear to be better suited for the volumes seen on most sport shots. What the older bowler doesn't see is the advantage they may have in accuracy that allows them to nearly eliminate the ridiculous low game. May not have the 250+ game, but they don't have the 120 game either.
Out of curiosity, how would you word a rule that eliminates the two-handed delivery as it is demonstrated by Belmo and the such? It comes across more as a dislike of the release specs than the method applied to achieve the specs. Most young two-handers I see do not have the elevated rev rates you see on tour. If they imitate anyone it is more like Simonsen than Belmo or Jesper.
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Being in my mid 40s I am kind of the bridge generation and I love bowling but even I have found league to be a chore and unfun in general. So much prefer bowling the dozen games I throw a week on my own schedule plus if I suck oh well don't have to see it on my average the next week. Will admit I am unique in that most people who own 50 bowling balls, spinner, etc are competitive bowlers. I just absolutely adore bowling, general public and taking it super serious competitively not so much. Guess I am contributing to ruin of social fabric in this country or whatever but trust me if you need me to be super social we are in deep sh*t. Just glad to have a hobby I enjoy and gives me at least a tiny bit of exercise.
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Tom Smallwood is the perfect example of allowing some control of the non-delivery hand if one wishes to not use their thumb. The non-delivery hand must be removed from the ball once the downswing passes the swing side hip.
I wouldn't allow the "chest throwing" at all.
We had a monthly sport pattern league that ran it's course for about 7 years, shortly after sport shots first started. We couldn't get any younger bowlers to bowl it. It would fill the center, with a waiting list at one point. Ran it's course, as all things do.
I have run a sport league for coming up on about 12 or so years now. Last year, was the first year we even had a bowler less than 30 years old (I was under 30 when I started the league). The team disbanded for this year, and only one player remained, which we are still trying to find a bowler to fill his team out. We have averaged 10-11 teams. Low of 9, and high of 12. Trios. This year, we have a few kids just out of juniors bowling it, as it is their first adult league. Side note, we have had our youth program bowling on USBC white patterns for the last 10 or so years, so they are used to having at least the USBC minimal amount of oil on the gutters.
Clearly, the demographics in your town are different than mine. But I do stand behind the overall numbers that have, as a whole member body, supported sport bowling and league base. I wish I could find the page I found those statistics, as I like to have proof to support my claims.
Even Simonsen's rev rate, although less then most of the two handers, is still higher than the average bowlers rev rate.
As a side note on Simonsen. GREAT person, and the sport of bowling needs more people like him in the industry. I wish him all the success he can attain.
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You just proved my point again. Everyone that left has priorities way more important than bowling. 30-40 years ago there was no such thing as a an internet bill, cell phone bill, FIOS bill, Netflix subscription, and the multitude of services, now bills, than the everyday adult in 2018 has. Living expenses have risen 300% since 1985 while the average salary with inflation has only risen 10%.
I stand by socioeconomic issues of the shrinking middle class bring the #1 issue of declining participation in bowling.
I haven't proven anything. I'm just stating that bowling isn't in decline because it's to expensive. Bowling is no more expensive now than it was 30 years ago when indexed for inflation. People just chose to spend their money elsewhere.
And by the way, "internet bill, cell phone bill, FIOS Bill, Netflix subscription" are not living expenses, they are luxuries. Just like that daily Starbucks visit, people are just choosing to spend their disposable income in other places.
I think that you took the tone of my post as being combative toward you, that's not what I meant...I apologize. I meant that as more of "Your point piggybacks the one I am making". You are correct in saying these things are "luxuries", but we cannot ignore that there are certain essentials (internet/cell phone/*entertainment*) that are a staple in the monthly budget for Americans. I think we agree that *No one* is going to work a hobby into their monthly budget over having a means of internet and wireless access. The point I am making is not "bowling is too expensive", the point is that the financial & socioeconomic issues of the middle class over the past 25-30 years, combined with what the average 18-40 year old prioritizes over hobbies is the #1 contributor to the decline in our sport.
With the ROI at every competitive level of bowling being atrocious, the last remaining bowlers that we have are here simply because they love to bowl. Taking away any exciting/new elements that may entice more participation at the youth level is not the way to save the game. Two handed bowling will never be abolished, we know this as fact. But bowlers stop participating when they:
-Are no longer having fun
-No longer can afford the expense
-Life events take priority (Kids, long work hours past league start times, moving)
If you look at the period of life when the above three start happening for the average person, ages 25-39, that's where the biggest drop off of participation is happening.
They're not quitting because two handers are beating them or wrecking the shot. They're not quitting because they bowled a sport tournament and averaged 165 when they've averaged 230 for the past 10 years on china. They won't quit because they can't use their stack leverage w/ weighthole in 2020 either. It mostly comes down to a life event that's big enough and private enough for them to but out a hobby that they loved for many years.
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You just proved my point again. Everyone that left has priorities way more important than bowling. 30-40 years ago there was no such thing as a an internet bill, cell phone bill, FIOS bill, Netflix subscription, and the multitude of services, now bills, than the everyday adult in 2018 has. Living expenses have risen 300% since 1985 while the average salary with inflation has only risen 10%.
I stand by socioeconomic issues of the shrinking middle class bring the #1 issue of declining participation in bowling.
I haven't proven anything. I'm just stating that bowling isn't in decline because it's to expensive. Bowling is no more expensive now than it was 30 years ago when indexed for inflation. People just chose to spend their money elsewhere.
And by the way, "internet bill, cell phone bill, FIOS Bill, Netflix subscription" are not living expenses, they are luxuries. Just like that daily Starbucks visit, people are just choosing to spend their disposable income in other places.
Bowling may not be anymore expensive today but it is still expensive, especially when you take into consideration what luxuries there are today compared to what was available 20 years ago. Nobody is going to give up cell phones and internet except those who can't afford it and those people don't have the money to spend on bowling anyways.
I have 7 kids and a great paying job and I can't afford to take all my kids bowling. Thank God for the kids bowl free program.
Our bowling alley is empty during the day and crowed at nights where the bowling is less than a third of the cost at night time compared to daytime.
Jason
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They're not quitting because two handers are beating them or wrecking the shot. They won't quit because they can't use their stack leverage w/ weighthole in 2020 either. It mostly comes down to a life event that's big enough and private enough for them to but out a hobby that they loved for many years.
While I don't disagree with the statement, there are people who have quit, because they were on the verge, and watching the high rev rates was enough to push them over.
It's like I have continually said, a well run business KNOWS it's current customer base, and finds ways to create NEW customers without alienating it's current customers.
I will say this though, I know PLENTY of people who don't watch the PBA telecasts if there are two-handers on them. It's not entertaining for them to watch something they don't identify with. They watched the Masters show though.
Pushing a product that constitutes, as you say, 0.00025% of it's consumer base, is a BAD business model, like it or not. Simple economics.
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I don't have a disdain for anything spmcgivern. Life is way to short for that. I can disagree with some ones point of view, but still like them and respect their opinion. Something that must be lost on certain people on here.
I have nothing, nothing against the individuals who throw two handed, just because they use two hands. They are bowling within the written rules as stated. I have a problem with a lack of rule that allows it to happen. two very different things.
I will say this. The average rev rate of a two handed player is much higher then the average rev rate of the traditional player. Rev rate and the subsequent higher ball speed and needed surface on a ball is what destroys pattern integrity, contrary to what the USBC wants to believe (cough, balance holes). We have a few DRASTIC changes coming down the pike in 2020, that WILL influence league participation. To what degree, we will see. These changes are a direct reflection of the two handed style, like it or not.
Who do you think had the higher rev rate and hooked it more and why, at 7 years old, Belmo or EJ Tackett? Think about it instead of just looking to throw shade.
I get it. I will not shy away from those issues I feel need to be addressed by USBC, just as you won't. I have been trying to get my leagues to at least consider Challenge Patterns or something with a similar ratio. Guess which demographic doesn't want it..... the older "middle-aged" bowlers. The younger bowlers are more up to the challenge than the older bowlers. Perhaps it is style related. The older bowlers may not want to give away what they perceive as the higher scoring shot for them.
I used to run a monthly WTBA sport compliant tournament. Each month was a different shot based on the WTBA patterns. Older bowlers didn't come out. A majority of older bowlers told me they felt they couldn't compete with the younger bowler. Perhaps they are correct. Modern styles (aka younger bowlers) appear to be better suited for the volumes seen on most sport shots. What the older bowler doesn't see is the advantage they may have in accuracy that allows them to nearly eliminate the ridiculous low game. May not have the 250+ game, but they don't have the 120 game either.
Out of curiosity, how would you word a rule that eliminates the two-handed delivery as it is demonstrated by Belmo and the such? It comes across more as a dislike of the release specs than the method applied to achieve the specs. Most young two-handers I see do not have the elevated rev rates you see on tour. If they imitate anyone it is more like Simonsen than Belmo or Jesper.
I don't know why so many people are against 2 handed bowlers as if they have an UNFAIR advantage. As good as Belmo and Jesper are they don't win every time they compete. If you make that style illegal than what about bowlers that use 1 hand and no thumb like me? Do you really want to tell Belmo, Jesper, and Tom Daughtery, to name a few, that they need to learn to throw a different way? What about Tackett and Rash as they have high rev rates, should we eliminate cupped wrist to make bowlers more even? Isn't that what handicap is to? As far as carry, I have seen a lot of 120 average get lucky strikes where I have to earn mine sometimes. High rev rates and speed do not always equate to better carry. You can have all the rev rate and speed in the world if you don't hit your mark it means nothing. If you think I'm wrong just watch Belmo the majority of the time he misses right it doesn't come back the majority of the time he misses it left it goes left.
This is all I really have to say I wish we could get this particular thread back on topic as Mo's seminar was interesting and if need be we can always start a separate thread to discuss whether or not two handed bowling should be illegal.
Jason
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One last thing that I meant to add to the last post. If anything we should be encouraging two handed bowling while I have no data to back this next statement up I believe if we told the youth that they could no longer bowl two handed and had to learn the traditional way we would lose a lot of younger Bowlers not that we have that many to begin with.
Jason
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You just proved my point again. Everyone that left has priorities way more important than bowling. 30-40 years ago there was no such thing as a an internet bill, cell phone bill, FIOS bill, Netflix subscription, and the multitude of services, now bills, than the everyday adult in 2018 has. Living expenses have risen 300% since 1985 while the average salary with inflation has only risen 10%.
I stand by socioeconomic issues of the shrinking middle class bring the #1 issue of declining participation in bowling.
I haven't proven anything. I'm just stating that bowling isn't in decline because it's to expensive. Bowling is no more expensive now than it was 30 years ago when indexed for inflation. People just chose to spend their money elsewhere.
And by the way, "internet bill, cell phone bill, FIOS Bill, Netflix subscription" are not living expenses, they are luxuries. Just like that daily Starbucks visit, people are just choosing to spend their disposable income in other places.
Bowling may not be anymore expensive today but it is still expensive, especially when you take into consideration what luxuries there are today compared to what was available 20 years ago. Nobody is going to give up cell phones and internet except those who can't afford it and those people don't have the money to spend on bowling anyways.
I have 7 kids and a great paying job and I can't afford to take all my kids bowling. Thank God for the kids bowl free program.
Our bowling alley is empty during the day and crowed at nights where the bowling is less than a third of the cost at night time compared to daytime.
Jason
So indexed for inflation, it was cheap to take a family with 7 kids bowling 30 years ago?
I say it again, internet, cell phone, Nike/Reebok/Addias etc shoes, Starbucks Coffee, SUVs are all luxuries that people choose to spend extra money on. These things are not necessities, they are luxuries. Just like taking a family bowling is a luxury. I'm just stating a fact, not judging.
The bowling industry is somewhat trying to correct this problem, but there is a huge mountain of problems to over come, none of which are two handed bowlers, reactive resin balls, oil patterns etc.
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You just proved my point again. Everyone that left has priorities way more important than bowling. 30-40 years ago there was no such thing as a an internet bill, cell phone bill, FIOS bill, Netflix subscription, and the multitude of services, now bills, than the everyday adult in 2018 has. Living expenses have risen 300% since 1985 while the average salary with inflation has only risen 10%.
I stand by socioeconomic issues of the shrinking middle class bring the #1 issue of declining participation in bowling.
I haven't proven anything. I'm just stating that bowling isn't in decline because it's to expensive. Bowling is no more expensive now than it was 30 years ago when indexed for inflation. People just chose to spend their money elsewhere.
And by the way, "internet bill, cell phone bill, FIOS Bill, Netflix subscription" are not living expenses, they are luxuries. Just like that daily Starbucks visit, people are just choosing to spend their disposable income in other places.
Bowling may not be anymore expensive today but it is still expensive, especially when you take into consideration what luxuries there are today compared to what was available 20 years ago. Nobody is going to give up cell phones and internet except those who can't afford it and those people don't have the money to spend on bowling anyways.
I have 7 kids and a great paying job and I can't afford to take all my kids bowling. Thank God for the kids bowl free program.
Our bowling alley is empty during the day and crowed at nights where the bowling is less than a third of the cost at night time compared to daytime.
Jason
So indexed for inflation, it was cheap to take a family with 7 kids bowling 30 years ago?
I say it again, internet, cell phone, Nike/Reebok/Addias etc shoes, Starbucks Coffee, SUVs are all luxuries that people choose to spend extra money on. These things are not necessities, they are luxuries. Just like taking a family bowling is a luxury. I'm just stating a fact, not judging.
The bowling industry is somewhat trying to correct this problem, but there is a huge mountain of problems to over come, none of which are two handed bowlers, reactive resin balls, oil patterns etc.
I agree 100% with the last paragraph and agree to disagree with the rest. I agree that internet and cell phones are a luxury but with everything being done through the internet these days and less person to person it's on the verge of being a necessity. I also think that people had more disposable income 30 years ago. The dollar went a lot further 30 years ago than today and inflation has not kept up. Even the luxuries have substantially increased the last 30 years as well as necessities such as electric, water, insurance, car payments, even cheap cars aren't as cheap as they use to be. Over the last 20 years my car insurance has doubled with no accidents, no tickets, and state minimums. The fact that single income families don't generally cut it anymore and requires 2 to pay bills help prove that point. These are my observations but may only apply to where I live and may not represent America as a whole.
Jason
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Jason ... I'm in NC retired since 1995 .. I agree 100% with your comments! Probable could give plenty of examples 'why' I agree .. what good would it be!
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People spend money on things these days that were available 30 years ago. Things they don't actually need, but just want. Like cell phones, you dont have to have a cell phone, but almost everyone does. Most parents even have them for their kids.
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If you dont like 2 handed bowling, you dont outlaw it, you change the environment that rewards it. This whole argument reminds me of 35+ years ago when the plant and reef cup wristers were driving the great strokers out of the game. If anything that was even worse. The strike or no count advantage to the power players was almost unbreachable. Ever wonder why all the great strokers like Neff, Hudson, Laub, Stefanich disappeared almost over might. The best of the power players like Roth Holman Webb werr immensely talented, but the short oil environment brought in a hist of other one hit wonder champions on tour during the early to mid 80s.
I remember bowling 6 game tourneys where I shot under and didnt cash with maybe 2 opens while guys were shooting 100 over with 8 opens. The carry avantage was so extreme to those crankers. My lack of success was partly my own fault. I had the ability to go even straighter and become a niche player like a Dickenson, but was tio stubborn.
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If you dont like 2 handed bowling, you dont outlaw it, you change the environment that rewards it. This whole argument reminds me of 35+ years ago when the plant and reef cup wristers were driving the great strokers out of the game. If anything that was even worse. The strike or no count advantage to the power players was almost unbreachable. Ever wonder why all the great strokers like Neff, Hudson, Laub, Stefanich disappeared almost over might. The best of the power players like Roth Holman Webb werr immensely talented, but the short oil environment brought in a hist of other one hit wonder champions on tour during the early to mid 80s.
Then ten years later reactives took out for good a lot of those guys that were dominating with plastic and urethane like Roth, Holman, Dell Ballard, etc. As Jug says change is inevitable.
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Agree. Also, the trend back to longer oil had already started befire resin came in. That helped strokers l8kw me too.