Author Topic: The real problem with house shots (Read 18113 times)

avabob · « **on:** August 27, 2012, 01:49:21 PM »

Every so often someone comes on here and starts a thread about the THS, and how bad it is for bowling. Usually they cite integrity, unrealistic scoring, and and guys spraying the ball all over the lane who shoot award scores.

Frankly I don't think any of the reasons usually cited for why THS is bad have much validity. I hear top level scratch bowlers complaining about a house hack shooting 300, and it sounds like sour grapes to me. Can you imagine a top level PGA pro complaining because an amatuer shoots 66 on a 6200 yard muni? Bowlers know what they are playing on.

Some people argue that the THS rewards bad execution. I think that is totally false. THS may not punish an errant shot as badly as a tournament pattern would, but THS rewards good execution ( speed control, release ).

So what is the only real problem with the THS? Until recently it was very difficult to find anything but the THS to bowl league on. For anyone aspiring to compete at a relatively high level the most important thing to learn is versatility. You can't learn versatility on a steady diet of one type of condition. When I was young we bowled on a lot of walled up conditions, but some were dead off the corner, and others had a ton of hold at 3rd arrow. That is how we developed a versatile game. Today people should play on as many conditions as possible, including house shots

trash heap · « **Reply #16 on:** August 28, 2012, 01:07:56 PM »

Right from bowl.com about the RED PATTERN or "THS".

Quote

While all three patterns (Red, White and Blue) are â€œhouseâ€ shots, they provide a variable range of difficulty. USBC Red pattern is designed to provide the greatest amount of forgiveness and be typical of conditions found in most bowling centers today. Of the three patterns, the Red pattern will yield the highest scoring pace for a typical USBC member.

With a much higher concentration of oil in the middle of the lane, the Red pattern allows bowlers to find more oil inside of target and more dry boards outside of target, often resulting in pocket strikes while missing the intended target line. This â€œtypical house patternâ€ is the least challenging of the three.

A center's standard house shot/condition is considered the Red pattern. Additionally, all house patterns that are not Blue or White are considered Red by default. Therefore, there are no lane machine numbers posted for Red patterns.

As USBC States. This pattern will often produce strikes while missing the intended target line. Is that what you want in competition? A person who can miss and throw a ball poorly still gets rewarded? You make a bad swing in golf, you make a bad throw in darts, or a bad toss in corn hole, you are penalized. When so many state on here that it allows for many different styles to compete, that should not include POOR and TERRIBLE Styles.

Now let's look at the BLUE.

Quote

USBC Blue pattern is designed to provide the greatest level of challenge as the application of oil is crowned the least of all three (although still more than Sport Bowling). Of the three patterns, the Blue pattern will yield the lowest scoring pace.

As with the Red and the White pattern, the Blue pattern is also offered in three different versions to meet the needs of different centers with a variety of lane surfaces and other factors. Blue patterns may be typical of something you would see at a State tournament and provide a nice stepping stone up to Sport conditions used in the Open Championships or local Team USA Experience leagues.

BLUE is still considered a THS (not labeled as SPORT Pattern). Think about it. If more leagues used this type of pattern it might get more bowlers to venture out and compete. Keeping the competitive side of bowling alive.

I am sure most bowlers would much rather go to state bowling tournament knowing their average is a little bit more true to their abilities instead of an over inflated average which keeps them at home.

I heard it all this year at PA state tournament. Guys vowing never to return if that patttern was used again. It was challenging, it wasn't over difficult, you just had to execute and be precise. There was some room for error, just not 10 boards.

If you want a fun league, then bowl on the wall. Your achievements and accomplishments are noted. Congratulations! You mastered the bunny course! How about taking the next step and bowl in the real world.

scotts33 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 28, 2012, 01:56:50 PM »

BLUE is still considered a THS (not labeled as SPORT Pattern). Think about it. If more leagues used this type of pattern it might get more bowlers to venture out and compete. Keeping the competitive side of bowling alive.

I am sure most bowlers would much rather go to state bowling tournament knowing their average is a little bit more true to their abilities instead of an over inflated average which keeps them at home.

I heard it all this year at PA state tournament. Guys vowing never to return if that patttern was used again. It was challenging, it wasn't over difficult, you just had to execute and be precise. There was some room for error, just not 10 boards.

If you want a fun league, then bowl on the wall. Your achievements and accomplishments are noted. Congratulations! You mastered the bunny course! How about taking the next step and bowl in the real world.

Couldn''t agree more....over inflated averages and bowlers with poor technique and lazy because of the house shot we are nurtured on week after week. For those highly skilled bowlers fine bowl your difficult sport patterns. For the rest of us a White or Blue can hone your skills slightly and allow a more true sense of what bowling should be as a game. It's not that hard and allows more players to use different equipment from different angles. Huge difference between difficult sport patterns and White/Blue.

Good Times Good Times · « **Reply #18 on:** August 28, 2012, 02:29:59 PM »

I'd love it if leagues were a 4:1 ratio, and that were the standard.

avabob · « **Reply #19 on:** August 28, 2012, 04:46:57 PM »

Low 80s to 100 is a pretty broad range. I am a low 80s player and I agree that the course can make quite a bit of differen to me, although it is primarily a distance issue. I play regularly with a guy who is a high 90's player, and the golf course has little impact on the shanks worm burners and banana slices that are a major part of his, and most 20 handicap players games.

I think there are legitimate comparisons to be made between bowling and golf, but I agree that the comparison groups are often wrong. Statistically the average for mens league bowlers is around 170. Most 170 men on a THS aren't going to be impacted a lot by lane conditions. Not sure what a median score is for golfers. Those who carry a handicap is too narrow a base, because a lot of once a week golfers don't even have handicaps. I think I saw once that only 10% of men ever break 90, but I could be wrong. In any event those quitting golf are typically people with very little developed skill. I think bowling is much easier to get to become moderately good at, but very difficult to excell at ( 200+ on a broad range of tournament patterns ). Golf is exceedingly difficult to learn for most people. Many parts of the swing are more counter intuitive than a good bowling release. For thos who perservere and start to approach single digit handicaps, it is a matter of how much time and effort you are willing to put in to get better. The limiting factor quickly becomes putting and the short game.

To me 210 average league bowlers on a house shot are very comparable to guys with a decent golf swing who can drive the ball close to 300 yards.

Pinbuster · « **Reply #20 on:** August 28, 2012, 07:11:39 PM »

I believe the average Male handicap in golf (for players with handicaps) is around 15.

The biggest issue with the THS is allowing so many strikes to be thrown that spare shooting is minimalized.

But in the end the player who executes best over the long haul comes out on top. There will be the nights when the carry simply isn't there and the bowler will miss so many spares they will crash and burn.

I'm a typical house hack that averages high on THS. Higher than some with a similar strike game because I do pick up most of my spares.

I struggle on sport shots. No sure why, but I suspect I bowl them so seldom and I don't have any equipment setup for it and I don't recognize the transitions.

Easy shots were not an issue until the modern balls gave such high carry percentages.

Around here most sport shot leagues are dead. Only short season ones have survived.

The biggest issue with bowling today is that people (society) does not want to commit to the league format, bowling weekly for 30+ weeks.

kidlost2000 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 28, 2012, 08:18:30 PM »

There is no answer. You know where the easy houses are and the tougher houses. Be an adult and pick one, or several and go bowl. No matter the condition you will always have parts of your game that will need improving and can be done on a variety of conditions. Or better yet, down grade your equipment to make the shot harder. There are many options for bowlers to take but their ego wont let them.

Quote from: spmcgivern on August 28, 2012, 07:13:54 AM

So I guess the answer to number 2 is to put out the easiest shot imaginable and tell the youth bowlers (the future of the sport) to suck it up and just bowl. Forget the fact you bowl on harder conditions as a youth, this is ADULT bowling now.

Quote from: avabob on August 28, 2012, 12:19:03 PM

While golf and bowling often draw comparisons, the fundamental difficulty of golf to the average recreational player cannot be minized by widening fairways or moving up tee boxes. A large portion of people who give up golf cite the frustrating difficulty of the game as at least one of the decisions to quit.

I have said this on these boards many times. Bowlers don't quit because they score too high, but some quit because the other guys scores too high. Most of the complaining about high scores is sour grapes.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #22 on:** August 29, 2012, 08:40:50 AM »

I don't think it is difficult to convince bowlers on this site the benefits of sport leagues or the demise of competitive bowling. The issue is convincing the rest of the bowlers of the same thing.

I'm not saying no one has tried to make changes, but until I hear of a league demanding more difficult shots, this is all hot air. And even when they do, the sandbagging discussion starts. Damned if you do, damned if you don't!!

Rightycomplex · « **Reply #23 on:** August 29, 2012, 11:02:51 AM »

The real problem is the bowlers and ungodly amount of handicap. THS is designed to cover flaws, and bowlers want THS to cover THEIR flaws. Sport patterns are designed to expose flaws. If you force bowlers to hit a spot on the lane and not an area, their would be no bowling. People want to be able to hook the ball like the pros they see on tv or just have fun throw the ball. If you take that fun away from them, they're going to spend their money elsewhere.
The handicap aspect is that 10% of 230 gives sand bagger the opportunity to rack up. Guy who can bag for 190 gets 35+/- pins, he shoots 250 (285) and racking pots. My thought is to big is down to 90% of 200 and make people step up.

trash heap · « **Reply #24 on:** August 29, 2012, 01:01:45 PM »

Quote from: Rightycomplex on August 29, 2012, 11:02:51 AM

The handicap aspect is that 10% of 230 gives sand bagger the opportunity to rack up. Guy who can bag for 190 gets 35+/- pins, he shoots 250 (285) and racking pots. My thought is to big is down to 90% of 200 and make people step up.

Your solution is flawed. You might take care of that small group of baggers or those in the 190 range (as you stated), but you just eliminated everybody with an average under 190. If you did get them in, they would be gone after one year of bowling. They have no chance to compete.

avabob · « **Reply #25 on:** August 29, 2012, 01:30:54 PM »

I don't think we need to convince anyone who doesn't want to play on sport patterns. What we need to do is convince proprietors to make sport patterns more available to the serious bowlers so they can hone their skills.

Competitve bowling has never been a short term profit center for proprietors, and it is necessary to educate them that slightly more catering to scratch players than the short term income statement would warrant will benefit them in the long run.

As for THS vs flatter patterns, here are a couple of points. House patterns allow bowlers to focus on carry more than playing multiple angles and other adjustments that are necessary on flatter patterns. Most players who bowl a lot on tournament patterns willingly give up some power to achieve versatility. Not unlike golf where big hitting PGA rookies usually learn to give up distance to shape shots better and play the course as they become more adept at the pro game.

Also, the flatter the pattern the more the buff length becomes a factor. On a THS the bowler controls the breakpoint that best matches his roll by controlling where he comes out of the oil on the way down the lane. On a flatter pattern you must match your roll to where it comes off the end of the oil patterns because you can't control the breakpoint by increading out angle or alternatvely hugging an oil line.

When I go into a tournament the only 2 things I look at are the buff length and the amount of reverse oil. Lateral ratios or the graph are usually very misleading, making the shot appear easier outside of second arrow than it really is

avabob · « **Reply #26 on:** August 29, 2012, 03:55:05 PM »

Actually I don't really disagree with Bosco, although it wasn't the main point of my post. I think house could migrate to a white or even blue pattern for most of their leagues with no impact on attrition. Most of the mixed leagues and seniors wouldn't notice much difference. In fact many would bowl better on a longer flatter pattern as wet dry is the enemy of slower ball speed whether it is a top hat or screeming back ends.

High average house players would adopt very quickly to less of a top hat. In fact many of them would also bowl better on a crown of say 4 or 5 to one. Most of best seniors score higher on the Cheetah than on a house shot.

When people compare bowling to golf, you must compare apples to apples. The vast majority of people who call themsleves regular golfers have never had a USGA handicap or played in a tournament outside of a company social thing. We don't call people bowlers unless they bowl in a league even if they regularly bowl cosmic or other non organized venues.

Rightycomplex · « **Reply #27 on:** August 29, 2012, 04:43:00 PM »

Quote from: trash heap on August 29, 2012, 01:01:45 PM

Quote from: Rightycomplex on August 29, 2012, 11:02:51 AM
The handicap aspect is that 10% of 230 gives sand bagger the opportunity to rack up. Guy who can bag for 190 gets 35+/- pins, he shoots 250 (285) and racking pots. My thought is to big is down to 90% of 200 and make people step up.

Your solution is flawed. You might take care of that small group of baggers or those in the 190 range (as you stated), but you just eliminated everybody with an average under 190. If you did get them in, they would be gone after one year of bowling. They have no chance to compete.

Lol! True, moreso speaking from my ideas. Wasnt being serious.

charlest · « **Reply #28 on:** August 29, 2012, 10:28:40 PM »

Quote from: trash heap on August 28, 2012, 01:07:56 PM

If you want a fun league, then bowl on the wall. Your achievements and accomplishments are noted. Congratulations! You mastered the bunny course! How about taking the next step and bowl in the real world.

I love this. I wonder how big a step we would take towards getting all these house hacks to bowl on a sport or even a sport-like (the blue pattern?) if
we started calling house oil patterns a very derogatory and condescending name, like skiing's "The Bunny Slope".

"You averaged 215 on the 'bunny slope'!!

Hysterical! and possibly effective.

ambi1 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 30, 2012, 02:35:32 AM »

Hmm... . The THS, doesn't really seem to be the problem. It seems to be the people bragging about scoring that really bugs a lot of players.
(from a sociological point of view, of course)

bosco · « **Reply #30 on:** August 30, 2012, 04:48:00 AM »

Quote from: avabob on August 29, 2012, 03:55:05 PM

Actually I don't really disagree with Bosco, although it wasn't the main point of my post. I think house could migrate to a white or even blue pattern for most of their leagues with no impact on attrition. Most of the mixed leagues and seniors wouldn't notice much difference. In fact many would bowl better on a longer flatter pattern as wet dry is the enemy of slower ball speed whether it is a top hat or screaming back ends.

High average house players would adopt very quickly to less of a top hat. In fact many of them would also bowl better on a crown of say 4 or 5 to one. Most of best seniors score higher on the Cheetah than on a house shot.

That is exactly right avabob. Wet/dry blocked lanes hurts way more league bowlers than it helps. It makes trying to pick up spares, which is the backbone of the lower average bowlers score, become unpredictable and actually more difficult to make.

ambi1 is correct in that "the typical house shot doesn't really seem to be the problem". But its not the bragging about scoring that is the problem either.

The typical house shot is a symptom to the real problem. And that problem is unpredictable ball reaction by playing on lanes that have been neglected and using balls that are too hard to control.

Even though the typical house shot (blocked oil pattern) does hurt the 140-170 average player because of spares, it is the only way for anyone using modern equipment with a little side rotation to have any resemblance of predictability. Which is key to enjoying the game of bowling.

High scores are only a symptom, and a byproduct, to the real problems in this current form of bowling. Sport Bowling, or flatter patterns, are nothing more than another band aid on an already heavily bleeding game.

Sure we can go to 4 or 5 to 1 ratio pattern across the board, but then it will become a game of who can make that pattern 8 to 1 the fastest. Might as well just leave it at 8 to 1 to start.

OR....dare someone suggest it on these boards, fix the real problems in the game. Hint: it ain't the oil patterns.

Author Topic: The real problem with house shots (Read 18113 times)

avabob

The real problem with house shots

trash heap

Re: The real problem with house shots

scotts33

Re: The real problem with house shots

Good Times Good Times

Re: The real problem with house shots

avabob

Re: The real problem with house shots

Pinbuster

Re: The real problem with house shots

kidlost2000

Re: The real problem with house shots

spmcgivern

Re: The real problem with house shots

Rightycomplex

Re: The real problem with house shots

trash heap

Re: The real problem with house shots

avabob

Re: The real problem with house shots

avabob

Re: The real problem with house shots

Rightycomplex

Re: The real problem with house shots

charlest

Re: The real problem with house shots

ambi1

Re: The real problem with house shots

bosco

Re: The real problem with house shots