Author Topic: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues (Read 20188 times)

badbeard · « **on:** September 13, 2011, 11:00:15 PM »

high average bowlers can't find a scratch league how about boll a handicap league which has a 116 % of handicap and insist in bowling on a league that you have a chance of losing for a change make your money on brackets and side pots let all teams have a fair chance of winning the league. MAN UP !!!!

United States Bowling Congress (USBC) defines handicapping as the means of

placing bowlers and teams of varying degrees of bowling skill on as equitable a basis as
possible for competition against each other.
Does any handicap used by a league equalize competition?
The results of an extensive four year study of handicap leagues -- mixed, all women and
all men -- disclosed that the handicap percentages 75%, 80% and 90% do NOT achieve
this goal as illustrated by the results from the study as follows:
Championship Won by Championship Won by
Handicap Team with Average Below Team with Average Above
Percent Median in the League Median in the League
70 0 out of 100 100 out of 100
75 0 out of 100 100 out of 100
80 0 out of 100 100 out of 100
85 6 out of 100 94 out of 100
90 11 out of 100 89 out of 100
95 24 out of 100 76 out of 100
100 30 out of 100 70 out of 100
Even at 100% handicap, as the above chart shows, the higher average teams or bowlers
still have a decided edge. Seventy out of 100 championships are still won by the higher
average team when 100% handicap is used. An exact 50-50 distribution of league
championships would result only if a 116% handicap was used.
You must always look at the difference in averages well as handicap. In the table the
higher average team total is 73% or 223 pins higher than the lower average team.
As shown below, when both teams bowl their exact averages; the higher average team
always wins unless the handicap is 100%, then the teams tie.
BASE 200
TEAM A TEAM B
Average 80% 90% 100% Average 80% 90% 100%
Linda 120 64 72 80 Dave 150 40 45 50
Dick 115 68 76 85 Patti 167 26 29 33
Kathy 95 84 94 105 Scott 185 12 13 15
Jeff 135 52 58 65 Terri 188 9 10 12
Sandi 142 46 52 58 Lisa 140 48 54 60
607 314 352 393 830 135 151 170
Average + 80% = 921 Average + 80% = 965
Average + 90% = 959 Average + 90% = 981
Average + 100% = 1000 Average + 100% = 1000

dmonroe814 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 14, 2011, 08:51:07 AM »

You can't argue with the numbers....

However, If I can go to the bowling alley, have 3 or 4 beers, bowl once a week and still beat the 230 average bowlers, what is my incentive to practice, focus, or learn how to bowl better? I have been bowling for 51 years, and the last couple of years, I have practiced more than I have practiced in my life. I now have my average up to 214. The top bowler in my house is at 240. The reason he is so good, is that he can repeat shots so well. He does that by practicing or bowling in tournaments every weekend and bowling in leagues 4 nights a week. I want to be able to compete with him, so I practice. If you want to compete with the high average bowlers, then to use your words, MAN UP!!!! Stop begging for more handicap and try to increase your SKILL. Stop looking for someone to give you pins. Handicap is meant to make you competitive, not make you better.

The more I practice, the luckier I get.

txbowler · « **Reply #2 on:** September 14, 2011, 11:25:40 AM »

In my opinion, there are several classifications of bowlers:

group a - bowlers who strive to get better. bowlers who practice. bowlers who learn.

group b- bowlers who bowl once a week who have the talent to be better but never put in the effort to get better, but can on demand, up their level of concentration and produce above their average when needed on THS

group c- bowlers who are out to bowl with their buddies and drink beer. Want to average over 200 so they think they are good and want the ths to be as easy as possible.

group d - bowlers who for many reasons cannot average above 190 no matter how much coaching, practicing or great walls of china you give them. They cannot get any better. They are what they are.

group e - bowlers who have the skills and ability to manipulate the system and their averages to the best of their ability and are not afraid to do so. More commonly known as sandbaggers.

As far the USBC research is concerned, they want all of the above groups to have the same opportunity to win any league and that is where their 116% figure comes from. However, I would say, that the 116% figure is designed to assist group D against group A. The problem is no one wants to see anyone from Group E win anything, so the percentages get lowered to hedge against Group E, and Group D pays a huge penalty for it. But until Group E is fixed (and I do not have that solution), group D will always face that uphill battle.

Jorge300 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 14, 2011, 11:55:03 AM »

Let me preface this by saying I am one of those "high"average bowlers. And I have bowled in a few handicap leagues, mainly to bowl with friends that aren't scratch bowlers. Now onto the topic:

I am not disputing any of your numbers or ones in your other thread (although I see no need why this has to have two threads devoted to it). And I agree 100% if you are talking about a singles league. But most of the leagues like this are 4 if not 5 person teams. When you add in the other averages and handicaps from them you are equaling out the advantage of one high average bowler. Plus if the league is based on a Peterson Points type of system, the high average bowler advantage only directly effects 1/4 to 1/5 of the total points (yes it is actually more, as their game goes into the team total, but they don't directly control that, the team does, the high average bowler can only directly control his/her own point. And it might even be less if you value the team game higher then an individual game).

This seems to be to be sour grapes from someone who thinks the handicap should allow them to compete with a 220+ average bowler rather then them going out and practicing and actually getting better. Well, sorry, it doesn't work that way. If you want to compete with the higher average bowlers, go out and put in the effort to get better. Work with a coach, practice on something other than THS, etc.

Jorge300

Tex · « **Reply #4 on:** September 15, 2011, 06:43:04 PM »

Txbowler and I are in the same league. This center does not, nor ever has had a scratch league. No reason to think it will either. The league is 80% of the difference in team averages. Yes the better (higher average) teams win every year. My team the last two, but that does not mean we always have the highest overall average or the winning team does. I think what makes Txbowlers team and ours some of the better in our league is a mindset, not just averages. We bowl as a team. We bowl well together as a group of 5 guys. We also bowl together in tournaments. We all bowl travel league and our Wednesday teams and travel teams are pretty close to the same guys in both. We also have fun while we are doing it. I don't think any of us like to lose or accept it as a possiblity, but don't go crazy if we have a bad night. We pick up the bowler that is down and don't step on each other. What I see too often of other teams is a defeated attitude, its all about me, talking **** to their own bowlers or lets party and think its going to get us the big money. Winning takes work and is a state of mind to some degree. This league has a lot of guys that are or were PBA members. Guys like Chris Johnson and DJ Archer have graced this league from time to time, so had our share of names. Just a 16 lanes center with a good reputation for competition. Its a fun league even though competitive and doesn't pay too bad in the end.

Would I bowl a league with 116%. Nope. Doubt I have to worry about that either.

Roll with 900 Global.

Made in Texas!

Edited by Tex on 9/15/2011 at 6:41 PM

Edited by Tex on 9/15/2011 at 7:48 PM

icefiction · « **Reply #5 on:** September 15, 2011, 08:17:31 PM »

It is impossible to dispute numbers, but even that being said my vote goes to those who think there is nothing wrong when you get beat on a regular basis by someone who is better than you. I understand the desire for a level playing field but really, what other sports have such a system in place besides golf. Normally when I play a sport I expect to lose when I play against someone who is better than me, why should I win, they have more talent, more ability, and more experience. It makes me try harder, aspire to be at their level.

I will never forget two experiences that I had when I was working in the shop, together they sum up the majority of bowlers attitudes towards practicing and put work into the sport we play.

Customer 1:

I want to get better, I have averaged 180 for two years now and I just cant seem to move up. I recommend some lessons to evaluate the bowler and their skills. First response I get is, I really don't want to practice I don't have time, do you think wearing sun glasses like that guy on my Monday night league will help?

Customer 2:

I watched my friend shoot 300 last night, he was using a virtual gravity, I want one too and drill it the same way. Pretty common, so I don't try to get a lot of info out of the customer, I just give him what he wants. I lay out the ball and show him before I drill it, the customer tells me the pin is on the wrong side of the fingers, so I ask him if his teammate uses his right or left hand, turns out his teammate is left handed and he is right handed. Do I have to tell you how long I fought with him about not duplicating the left handed layout with weight hole exactly the way his buddies was. When it came down to it he told me he just wants to shoot 300 and he knows this ball will let him do it but only if its laid out exactly the same way.

Between those two customers I gave up on trying to convince stubborn people that bowling is a game of skill and requires a lot of time and practice to master.

So when someone tells me that they should just get pins so they can shortcut the time and effort that others have put into our sport, you wont get much sympathy from me. If our sport is to grow then we need to convince bowlers that its worth the time and effort, instead of making it effortless and giving them the ability to shoot scores that are beyond perfect and then inflate their egos.

kidlost2000 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 15, 2011, 08:25:53 PM »

Or when you bowl one of the handicap league throw off half the year and use your handicap the second half of the season?

It is all the same. If you want everything equal pick a different sport. Or get a better team.

"1 of 1."

The Bowling Pariah · « **Reply #7 on:** September 15, 2011, 09:07:20 PM »

Mr. Beard,

Are you serious? 116% handicap. REALLY?

WHY? Isn't the 90% you and your cronies "fought for" enough for you?

Let me recap something for you. TECHNOLOGY has already made it possible for you to join the ranks of people capable of averaging 200, and that wasn't enough.

So, you and your bunch decided to force a 90% handicap down the throats of the people you still couldn't beat, trying to tilt the playing field even further in your favor, and THAT wasn't enough.

NOW, you are even starting to mention a handicap that would even PENALIZE people with those "high averages" you seem to hate.

You say it isn't "sour grapes", because you average 200 yourself, but it is, you can tell it from your tone and attitude towards the subject.

You are hinderd, and limited, by your own lack of physical ability, and you want somebody to come along and hand feed you something you can never get on your own.

Quit crying about how "unfair" it is that somebody is actually better than you, and go do something constructive about it, like IMPROVE YOUR OWN SKILLS.

badbeard · « **Reply #8 on:** September 15, 2011, 09:51:58 PM »

Iwork on my game all the time and I bowl in 4 different houses go to nationals and bowl in state tournaments and senior tournaments. and yes I have beaten the high average bowler from time to time. I like to shoot pot games scratch where I know it takes 230 up to win also in a house that I don't bowl league in . I travel to the nearest house 12 miles then 24 miles and 40 miles one way so I make an effort. The reason I started this thread was to get people thinking again. looking at studies is one way to get information that is not he said she said. take it for what it is worth

think about it or forget about it. facts are facts it is just that ! I see league play shrink every year and would like to see the leagues full again.. How about you ?

The Bowling Pariah · « **Reply #9 on:** September 15, 2011, 11:40:24 PM »

badbeard wrote on 9/15/2011 9:51 PM:
Iwork on my game all the time and I bowl in 4 different houses go to nationals and bowl in state tournaments and senior tournaments. and yes I have beaten the high average bowler from time to time. I like to shoot pot games scratch where I know it takes 230 up to win also in a house that I don't bowl league in . I travel to the nearest house 12 miles then 24 miles and 40 miles one way so I make an effort. The reason I started this thread was to get people thinking again. looking at studies is one way to get information that is not he said she said. take it for what it is worth

think about it or forget about it. facts are facts it is just that ! I see league play shrink every year and would like to see the leagues full again.. How about you ?

I worked on my game for years. Bowling in travel leagues, different leagues in different houses, pot games that lasted until dawn, state tournaments, and PBA regionals. The only thing you've done, that I have not, is bowling nationals, and I always wanted to, just never had the money and the time at the same time.

Studies are just that, nothing more than studies. They offer information from the observers point of view, and are aimed at trying to prove the points of those doing the studies. If those studies are based on a false supposition, the studies themselves will not be equitable, but will be biased towards the opinion of those doing the study.

I see the leagues shrink every year as well, but it has little, if anything, to do with the handicap. Leagues were full in the past, but handicaps were only 80% of 200 back then too, so it can't be that, can it?

I think the shrinking leagues are a product of our "virtual reality", instant gratification, what have you done for me lately, society. People don't want to EARN things anymore, they just want to run to the corner store and "get" them, and I believe that is what is going on in our bowling society today as well.

chatnboy · « **Reply #10 on:** September 16, 2011, 01:15:03 AM »

you have a "rainbow"of bowlers in league nowadays...and everyone has teir own agenda!!!unless you and your "team"have the same mind...you will never accomplish the goal of beating those higher average teams!!!like others ave said....practice is pramount....but the whole team must also desire that same mindset or you will no goanywhere!!!

Go hard or go home!!!!!Bowl your best...ALWAYS!!!

Maine Man · « **Reply #11 on:** September 16, 2011, 01:25:04 AM »

I am a high average bowler, love scratch bowling, and run a monthly scratch tournament here in Maine you can link to from my signature, and I love to compete. But, handicap leagues face challenges to appease both low and high average bowlers, and there are two main points on handicap I would like to touch on. 100% Handicap (or in this case 116%) does (2) things:

1) Does nothing to discourage sandbagging, period. In fact, it almost promotes it to an extent. At 100%, a bowler could throw 10 pins below their normal average for the entire first half of the season, and get a team of 5 players doing it, then that's 50 sticks a game, or 150 sticks for a three game set. That is only (1) missed spare per person on the team, per game, and there is NO WAY you could prove intent with that low of a number, but you can see how big of a difference it makes when you add it up for an entire team. Now, this same team, once they get enough games in at the end of the first half of the season, can start bowling well again because their averages won't go up as fast since they have probably 45-50 games in on the season. This means they have the benefit of extra sticks they wouldn't normally have if they weren't sandbagging, and can dominate the second half of the season and win the league. Go to 90% handicap, for example, and since you get less sticks the lower your average is, compared to a bowler at the average cap, then there isn't as much incentive to sandbag, period. If you are going to get penalized pins for intentionally bowling below your average, then why do it?

2) It also does not encourage lower average bowlers to improve their game. I feel like the bowlers who put in the time and become good at the sport of bowling deserve some sort of reward for their effort, and that can be in the form of handicap that is less than 100%. A 140 average bowler has no incentive to get better if they are getting the same amount of pins per game as the guy averaging 235. I feel this is wrong, and by making the handicap a lower %, you are encouraging that 140 bowler to get better, so that they will be penalized less pins by increasing their average. Now, people will tell me that many bowlers don't want to spend the time getting better and should not be forced to do so based on the handicap system. Well, I say to them that why even bowl a league for prize money and awards if you don't want to get better? Just go in and have a few beers and bowl open practice instead. It works both ways with that argument, so don't even go there. I don't like handicap % lower than 90%, as that is enough to discourage sandbagging while not penalizing lower average bowlers to the point where they have no shot at winning anything. 80% handicap is WAY too low and should never be used in my opinion.

The one thing any study doesn't realize is that yes, in theory 100% handicap would "level the playing field", and the USBC study was still saying that even at 100% handicap the higher average team still wins more of the time. But, this is because the higher average team is more CONSISTENT from game to game and bowler to bowler, hence the higher averages, so that is why they win more games and not because of the handicap. USBC says handicap should be around 116% (which the OP pointed out) to make the field truly "fair", which is absolutely crazy. You think people sandbag now, try and run a league with that kind of handicap system, it will be out of control, and the league will lose bowlers faster than they do now I can assure you of that. If you don't like losing pins at 90% handicap, stop whining, put in some practice time and get better, period, end of story.

I also agree with what txbowler wrote, unless the USBC wants to seriously police sandbagging, the only way to combat it is to drop handicap % and force bowlers to want to get better. I have no problem wanting to get better each season, do you?

James Goulding
Moores Pro Shop

M.I.S.T. Tournament Info: www.jgoulding.wordpress.com
State Site: www.msusbc-maine.org
Local Link: www.lausbca.org

trash heap · « **Reply #12 on:** September 16, 2011, 09:03:14 AM »

Not every bowler does get better. They are going to be at that 140 - 170 range their entire life. Some have no clue about the game. They just go up and throw the ball, and yeah they have a couple of good nights a year (and its those nights that ticks off the high average player: "He has a 150 average, he must be bagging!".).

The study shows high average wins most of the time even at 100%. Isn't that good enough for you! The odds are still in your favor. You want to get better, I am the same. It's because you are a better bowler that gives you the edge at 100%. Let these low average teams have a chance. We need these people in this sport.

It's okay for a low average team to be in first place in a HANDICAP league. It rarely happens now.

I truly believe most bowlers are not trying to cheat in a league.

Maine Man wrote on 9/16/2011 1:25 AM:
I also agree with what txbowler wrote, unless the USBC wants to seriously police sandbagging, the only way to combat it is to drop handicap % and force bowlers to want to get better. I have no problem wanting to get better each season, do you?

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 16, 2011, 09:43:11 AM »

I am going to add something to this also. In all the handicap leagues I have bowled in, I have not seen one team that was stacked with 4-5 230 bowlers. I tend to see one guy who is 220-230 bowling with 3-4 others that are 190ish. The percentage of 230 bowlers to the overall size of the league is so minimal. Each league is different of course. The one I bowl in has 34 teams of 5 and the number of guys averaging that 230 number is a total of 3, a couple of which arent really 230 bowlers; but more like 215 types that are just off to really good starts so far. There are a few others in the 220s but also bowling out of their minds and reality will set back in in the next few weeks.

Here are some numbers for YOU!! 34x5=170 bowlers. Roughly 10 out of 170 are 220; half of which will finish the year in the 210 area. About 75% of the league is between 170 and 200, about 10% is 210+, and the rest are handicappers.

Regardless of the handicap numbers you show, unless there are stacked teams where the team average is 1100+ for 5 man teams or 880+ for 4 man teams, the handicap argument really doesnt mean much. My team that I bowl on, our team average is just under 1000 for 5 guys and I am averaging 225. Most of the teams in the league right now, even with a member at 220+, are around 1000, give or take some pins.

NOW........if you bowl in a league where you have 100 bowlers and 30 of them average under 170 and 30 average 220+, then I can see the issue. But, when the total number of 220+ bowlers comes out to less than 5% of the league, then there is nothing to argue over. It is a team sport and 1 guy on a 5 member team is not going to guarantee them making the rolloffs.

Peace doesnt always have to be silent.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #14 on:** September 16, 2011, 11:09:34 AM »

I hope people understand when USBC states "higher average" teams, they mean those teams higher than the league median. So in other words, in a 30 team league, 15 teams are considered higher average. Not the top 5, 15. The statement of equality is for the lower half of the league. It isn't intended to combat the top 5, but the top 15. By saying you want to have 100% + handicap is saying you feel the team with the lowest team average should have a chance to win the league, irregardless of how bad they are, how little they try, or how drunk they get during the night. They should be given the same chance as everyone else in the league.

I'm sorry if I don't feel that way. I don't mind teams in the upper half winning the league, they often do as the study shows. But the study doesn't say having 90% handicap eliminates 25 teams in a 30 team league.

I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

Author Topic: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues (Read 20188 times)

badbeard

to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

dmonroe814

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

txbowler

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

Jorge300

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

Tex

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

icefiction

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

kidlost2000

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

The Bowling Pariah

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

badbeard

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

The Bowling Pariah

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

chatnboy

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

Maine Man

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

trash heap

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

TWOHAND834

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

spmcgivern

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues