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Author Topic: usbc sportshot crap  (Read 19513 times)

tfav44

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usbc sportshot crap
« on: April 20, 2008, 05:12:34 AM »
is anyone else sick of the sportshot crap the usbc keeps shoving at us, I have read that league bowling membership is declining, iknow that this is true in my area. I live in mich. and the decline of the auto industry is having a huge impact on our leagues.Jobs, Money, and time are tight so guys are having to cut back. the usbc is basically ignoring normal house leagues and is pushing pba experience and sport leagues. the thing is we don't have the time and disposable income to devote to having all this extra equipment and practice time. everyone on my team averages over 200, we have all decided to cut back to once a week bowling. we tired of the usbc telling us that what we are doing doesn't measure up and for the "integrity of the game we should switch to a pba exp. league.
thats my rant
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T-GOD

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2008, 07:09:52 PM »
The difference between a good league bowler and a professional is that a good league bowler can shoot 300 and maybe 720 for 3 games on the same pair.

The professional bowler can bowl 300 and 760 crossing pairs, while bowling 8 or more games at a time..!! That's the difference between a good league bowler and a pro, imo. =:^D

TDC57

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2008, 07:54:37 PM »
I have made this point on this site more than once and I'll make it again. I have been a lane maintenance guy for over 26 years. Bowling is not in decline because of easy house shots. It is in decline because we live in a different era than when bowling was in its heyday. The cost is higher and people have many more recreational and other things to do and deal with today. Bowling proprietors would be idiots if they all decided to toughen up the shot each night they have leagues. There are some who like challenges (YOU ARE IN THE MINORITY) and the rest who like to have a fun night out and have a chance to shoot good scores. They may only bowl a couple tournaments a year and know that if they have a high average they will probably struggle on tough shots. This does not make them any less important than anyone else and if you think they are, you are a bowling snob. These guys don't pizz and moan when you big shooters take their money at every turn so why are you concerned about THS conditions and if the other side scores well. Bowling is never coming back to the spot of prominence it once was, so forget the idea of Sport Bowling saving the game. That's BULL***t.

My favorite story is about a guy who was one of the top bowlers in our area. He bowled 20 years ago in a scratch league that pretty much had a reverse block for a shot. He moaned continually about the horrible shot we had to deal with every week. A few years later a new center manager comes along and softens the shot and presto the guy is now averaging 225. After a couple of years of that he's now moaning, "they've got to make this shot tougher". Toughen up the shot and the moaning would start again. So what is it tough or easy? Or is it just shut up and bowl where you want and forget about the other side!!! You can have it both ways and yes some places have went to ridiculously easy shots. That's wrong but there's nothing wrong with putting out a shot that if you throw the ball right you score. Putting out a shot that drops good bowlers 20-25 pins in average won't build the game.


Edited on 4/22/2008 1:56 AM

gbushman

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2008, 08:01:37 PM »
THS is to SPORT SHOT as MINATURE Golf is to 18 hole golf.  ONE is recreation and the OTHER is SPORT.
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TOO many IDIOTS, so LITTLE time.

Atochabsh

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2008, 08:51:42 PM »
quote:
In my opinion the main reason for this argument: THS!!!!!


I don't think so.  Its not the shot actually on the lane.  Its the overall lack of knowledge most bowlers have for the sport they are playing.  This is mostly because most of the league bowlers do not use bowling as a sport, but rather as a social outing and recreation.  Many typical league bowlers do not care what they shoot from night to night.  Nor do they care why they shoot huge one week and low the next.  They pay their dues and fees and have a fun evening out.  

Like I've said before, its great that Sport/PBA conditions exist for those that want them.  Most do not.  And Sport/PBA bowlers should be greatful that the rest of Joe and Jane bowler still pay sanctioning fees that keep the USBC in business.
 

Erin

JessN16

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2008, 09:00:13 PM »
quote:
THS is to SPORT SHOT as MINATURE Golf is to 18 hole golf.  ONE is recreation and the OTHER is SPORT.
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TOO many IDIOTS, so LITTLE time.



Nope.

THS is a municipal course played from the whites. Let's not let our hatred for easy shots lead us to make overboard comparisons that don't fit.

And everyone should take care to read Tony C's and Erin's post on the subject, which is where the truth gets separated from the fiction.

Jess

AdrianS

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2008, 09:29:08 PM »
I think 'sport bowling' should be bowling with non reactives, the balls are more a problem than the patterns. Break out those Turbos, U Dots and Hammers plus some early 90's lane conditions(the 3 units on the gutter condition, not 26 foot of short oil!!) if you want to create an 'alternative' bowling enviroment.
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mainzer

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2008, 10:30:21 PM »
quote:
I love it when mainzer comes on with his "idiots review"






next time i will with hold my opinion
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SirAshley

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2008, 10:41:26 PM »
The problem is that the USBC is pushing sport bowling as a separate entity... They should be pushing for the different Sport Shots to become the standard house shots... Last week, I shot 723, and I know damn well, that it wouldn't have been a 600 on a sport shot, but at least I can admit it. I threw numerous shots where I didn't get enough behind the ball, yet I carried. I think there is something seriously wrong with our sport when I have a night where I feel like I was totally off, and I shot 723... that to me, is a problem...
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EagleHunter

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2008, 10:42:09 PM »
Jess, efi, et al.,
You still have failed to answer the very question that I posed earlier...

If everyone knows the great disparity between their own individual talent and that of the PBA boys (or formerly PWBA girls), then why can't they recognize that difference with an overall decrease in scoring average?

If you know that your 205-220 average doesn't compare with what the Pros are capable of, does that mean that your 175-190 average would mean you are less of a bowler?

Again the problem that many have about the THS is the attitude of many of the THS babies that they somehow have "earned" or "deserve" such high scores.  Who said that high scores have to put you in the 220 average range?  If you are just there for FUN (as most of you continue to claim), then why is your FUN tied directly to how you score?  Sounds more like some type of competition than fun.

The ONLY growth area in bowling today is the youth area.  And you know what, most of those YOUTH bowl on Sport conditions for anything that matters, including some leagues.  It seems that SOMEONE seems to get it...perhaps youth isn't that naive after all.

JessN16

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2008, 11:35:58 PM »
quote:
Jess, efi, et al.,
You still have failed to answer the very question that I posed earlier...

If everyone knows the great disparity between their own individual talent and that of the PBA boys (or formerly PWBA girls), then why can't they recognize that difference with an overall decrease in scoring average?

If you know that your 205-220 average doesn't compare with what the Pros are capable of, does that mean that your 175-190 average would mean you are less of a bowler?

Again the problem that many have about the THS is the attitude of many of the THS babies that they somehow have "earned" or "deserve" such high scores.  Who said that high scores have to put you in the 220 average range?  If you are just there for FUN (as most of you continue to claim), then why is your FUN tied directly to how you score?  Sounds more like some type of competition than fun.

The ONLY growth area in bowling today is the youth area.  And you know what, most of those YOUTH bowl on Sport conditions for anything that matters, including some leagues.  It seems that SOMEONE seems to get it...perhaps youth isn't that naive after all.


Youth JOG may be on sport shots but because my career is in the media, I've been fortunate enough to be able to cover state HS championships, state youth tournaments and other youth bowling activities (helps to be the boss and make the schedule), and the next one I see contested on a sport-compliant shot will be my first.

Back to your original point, I know my average is inflated and I know everyone else's is inflated and I suspect most of them know it, too. Yeah, there are some guys who are living in a dreamworld but I've found that we don't give league bowlers enough credit in knowing what's what.

However, what you're also not giving THS league bowlers credit for is the fact they and not you run the sport. That's because they have far greater numbers.

I don't care what scoring range you set for me; I'm going to bowl and that will be that. However, I am trying to slow the bleed-off in numbers at least to the point that I'll still be able to bowl in a sanctioned league 30 years from now when I'm a step away from my death bed.

If you mandate sport conditions for all USBC sanctioned leagues, I think you underestimate the backlash you're going to get. First, from proprietors, because most of them have no desire to make the shot harder nor the desire to do the extra work and spend the extra money to sanction it. Second, from the bowlers, because if they are going to have 150-160 averages rammed down their throats, a significant number are going to find something else to do with their time.

I've been, as I've said already, president of an association in the past and I've been out in the community trying to lead a recruiting effort. The support even among the current bowlers for dropping averages 30-40 pins is virtually nil. The only people who support that are the true high-ability level bowlers and even then it's not consistent.

If you either try to mandate sport shots for all, or turn back the ball technology, I'm going to guess the membership will drop by 33 percent as a conservative estimate and it will probably be worse. Many leagues will simply elect not to sanction. And if that happens, your version of the sport won't survive. The USBC can keep putting band-aids on the issue but cannot survive a major reduction in numbers all at once.

The way to bring bowlers back to the sport -- which is the only thing we should be worried about here, scores be da*ned -- is to do two things: Recruit our a**es off (which many associations won't do out of laziness) and find a way to retain the youth within the sport after high school. The second half of that is more important, but unfortunately we're working against things like college, which tends to interrupt bowling careers for youth due to lack of money to stay in the sport those four years. Many of them seem to disappear from the sport after that, for whatever reason.

If you want to mandate sport conditions for leagues -- a premise I highly doubt you'll ever be able to do under any circumstance -- you certainly won't do it until you add membership to leagues. Because you're going to have to be able to survive the hit in numbers you'll take if a changeover is made. Of course, this gets into a chicken/egg scenario, and sport bowling is on the wrong side of the equation.

Jess

zerorev

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2008, 11:52:26 PM »
If you have such a problem with sanctioning go bowl in a non sanctioned league. If you think averaging 200 on a house shot is an accomplishment you are an idiot. If you wonder why golf and other sports that are difficult to learn and be good at and are thriving and don't understand why bowling is trying to follow suit you probably should quit bowling and take up checkers.

JessN16

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2008, 12:01:38 AM »
quote:
If you have such a problem with sanctioning go bowl in a non sanctioned league. If you think averaging 200 on a house shot is an accomplishment you are an idiot. If you wonder why golf and other sports that are difficult to learn and be good at and are thriving and don't understand why bowling is trying to follow suit you probably should quit bowling and take up checkers.


If that was directed at me, thanks for the advice but I'll continue to post my feelings on the matter whenever I see fit.

Golf isn't "thriving," by the way. Rounds played leveled in 2000 and are on the decline for the same reason bowling is really on the decline -- economic factors and creeping, general laziness of the American public. Scoring pace has nothing to do with either sport but no one wants to hear that. They want to ascribe their own biases to the situation hoping to make a point.

As for what average and scores mean in terms of "accomplishments," I'm not going to get too deep into that but I will say this: Bowling is the only sport where a significant number of its own adherents consistently rip other players for what they see as "legitimate" or "illegitimate" scoring. It's elitism. And what's funny about that is that bowling, least of all the major sports, has a right to be elitist in any way. It's a blue-collar sport played by average people and no one has a right to call anyone else's accomplishments illegitimate, because opinions on legitimacy don't mean jack spit.

When I hear bowlers rip other bowlers for a perceived lack of skill, I want to walk up and throw a glass of cold water in their face and remind them what exactly it is they're talking about. If you're getting high-n-mighty with someone over a bowling score, you've got a kind of self-esteem issue I don't even want to touch. Newsflash: No one is a better person or a more important person because of what they can bowl on a flat shot versus a THC shot versus the asphalt in the parking lot.

This sport doesn't need a rules rewrite, it needs a da*ned psychiatrist.

Jess

EagleHunter

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2008, 12:12:03 AM »
For someone with your background, I find it funny that you would attempt to make the claim that the THS bowlers run the sport.  You may run the Recreation, but you most certainly do not run the SPORT.  

On second thought, perhaps you are correct.  After all you and your mostly non-competitive, only bowl for the fun of it brethren, have been in charge over the last 3 decades or so, thanks in large part to the Delegate system used by ABC.  Perhaps you may want to lay claim to being partly responsible for the decline in membership?  After all, this occurred during your watch.

The SPORT is governed and ruled by USBC, period.  If they choose to mandate some type of condition, so be it.  They certainly will not though, unless they were to have the support of the proprietors.

That said, the rhethoric being bandied about by both USBC leaders and BPAA leaders is to "GROW THE SPORT."  Perhaps the proprietors have seen that giving the masses what they alledgedly want (high scores), hasn't led to the growth they assumed would occur.  Perhaps massive changes are already underway.

Kegel developed the "Standard Ball" after being requested to look into its viability by one of the International governing bodies (WTBA, I think).  They did not invest countless amounts of time/money just to say they did it.  That said, perhaps Kegel's new lane conditioning formats were created in response to a request from someone (perhaps USBC & BPAA) in order to create various playing fields that could ultimately lead to some type of tiered membership concept, with the ultimate goal being the recognition of bowling, at its highest level, as a SPORT.

So let's say that is exactly what would happen, tiered membership with lane conditions of varying levels of difficulty, and varying levels/types of awards to complement each level.  Where would you and your brethren go?  Would you automatically sign up for the easiest level and then complain that the awards are poor?  Would you step-up to the highest level and a sense of accomplishment over something small (perhaps a clean set)?  Would you be somewhere in between?

Let's assume that this were the reality, where would you go?  Most of the clamoring for the THS comes from those that claim they are only in it for fun...so if this were the reality, then all of them would stay in the lowest levels of competition (where the shot is the easist and the awards the poorest), right?  I have my doubts.

EagleHunter

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2008, 12:26:10 AM »
Jess,
As for your comments about bowling elitism...you are 100% correct.  I am proud to say that I am one of them.

God forbid that I expect the work and dedication I put into my game to mean something.  God forbid that anyone who takes pride in putting 100% into getting better actually want that improvement to mean something.  Heaven help the person who works their tail off but always seems to fall a bit short of their goal for getting upset when watching someone throw 12 shots, 12 different ways, on 12 different lines, with 3 nose shots, and 4 brooklyns, with their 170-ish average, while achieving that very goal which seems to be forever out of reach for the one who is actually working to attain it.

Over the long-haul the good bowlers win.  That is the way it should be.  Accomplishments should not be easy to attain.  If they are easy then it is not a sport.

zerorev

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Re: usbc sportshot crap
« Reply #75 on: April 22, 2008, 12:37:30 AM »
Maybe I was a little hasty. Its not that any accomplishment on a THS is not admirable its that far too many "honor" scores have no honor. If you are playing on most THS conditions if you hit the same mark 5 or 6 times in a row by the 6 time your ball will not react the same and you will not be rewarded for being accurate. If you spray a 10 board area all night you get rewarded with false accomplishments. And even though you might have been the better BOWLER that night the SPRAYER gets rewarded. Thats what makes people direspect bowling. If I went out hit no fairways, hit every bunker and still made birdie I would think the game was too easy and no fun if I was A REAL COMPETITOR. If I was A CHEAP HACK I would think it was great. Same as in bowling. You want easy you want fun go bowl in a non sanctioned fun league. IF YOU WANT TO COMPETE AND ACTUALLY HAVE TO PUT FORTH EFFORT SPORT BOWL ON TOUGH CONDITIONS.

Edited on 4/22/2008 0:38 AM