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Author Topic: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?  (Read 22011 times)

Gizmo823

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What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« on: December 04, 2013, 10:51:55 AM »
More and more it feels like I'm just the guy that puts holes in the ball.  People come in with requests, demands, or instructions, and any questions they ask just further set or fuel their nearly predetermined idea of what they want.  For a while there I actually started feeling like a professional, or somebody who was making a difference, but as soon as you start butting heads with people, your stomach drops.  If people want knowledge, a pro shop is apparently the last place they go.  They'll ask other coaches, other people, pop on here with questions, but they won't trust their pro shop.  All I keep hearing is, "this is what I want," or "this is the way I hold the ball," or "I want to do it this way."  I'm not happy or content being the monkey on the press, but at the same time I'm in no position to try and influence a change. 

I know I yammer on about the same crap all the time, but I find things a lot easier to take if I have no misconceptions or unrealistic expectations about my situations.  So what do you really want from your pro shop operator?  I'm not saying pro shop guys all know what they're doing by any stretch, but I suppose I don't get why everybody thinks they know more than professionals who do something for a living, and honestly I'm bitter about it.  I don't spend dozens of hours a week thinking, reading, learning, and writing about bowling just to drill someone's thumbhole 3 sizes too big because they like to grip it, yet still complain about that thumb being twice the size of their other one, and won't let me do a thing about it.  I'm sure that sounds arrogant, but it's just insanely frustrating when people won't let you help, it's like dealing with one teenager after another. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

 

Gizmo823

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2013, 02:55:31 PM »
We charge 45 for an outside drill, 5.50 apiece for inserts, 14 for a thumb slug, 18 apiece for the Turbo Switch Grip system, and 20 apiece for the IT.  Again, considering there are some people I've spent several hours a week with over the last couple months, to us it doesn't sound like much, but the customer feels like they're getting bent over . . I hate telling people the price because I know that 95% of the time the reaction isn't going to be pleasant.  Now if the business were to close, all the sudden there would be a problem, I already get enough complaints that I don't work during the summer. 

$60 with inserts is not enough if you are dealing with a person face to face.  Charging that little is just creating a slow death for your business.
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

itsallaboutme

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2013, 03:23:31 PM »
I think if I were to ever go back in to the pro shop business (I can't believe I just typed that) I would offer different levels of fittings/consultations just like the high end golf fitters do.  They do driver/woods/irons/wedges/putter/whole bag/gap fittings, ect.  I think a good pro shop in a bowling center good do this with a good video setup. 

suhoney24

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2013, 06:33:12 PM »
$60 with inserts is not enough if you are dealing with a person face to face.  Charging that little is just creating a slow death for your business.
why does everyone feel they need to bend people over with prices over basically 4 holes and some glue? my pro shop person charges about $50 (for a complete job)...and only $35 for me because i don't use a thumb slug and get my finger tips from my pro shop guy...and they always have a line out the door...

and $5.50 PER insert? yeah where i go i can get BOTH for $4

i guess i just don't see the reason for such huge prices...

« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 06:36:05 PM by suhoney24 »

itsallaboutme

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2013, 06:45:47 PM »
There is much more to drilling a ball than 4 holes and glue.  Read the expectations of the people in this thread.  A business can't survive taking in $35 an hour.  If the pro shop charges $35 to drill a ball and they have a line out the door they should raise prices.     

Everyone wants Saks service and Walmart prices.  If you expect premium services you should expect to pay premium prices. 

When I drilled online balls we charged more than that and I never had to see a customer face to face and never worked out a ball. 

bradl

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2013, 06:50:30 PM »
There is much more to drilling a ball than 4 holes and glue.  Read the expectations of the people in this thread.  A business can't survive taking in $35 an hour.  If the pro shop charges $35 to drill a ball and they have a line out the door they should raise prices.     

Everyone wants Saks service and Walmart prices.  If you expect premium services you should expect to pay premium prices. 

When I drilled online balls we charged more than that and I never had to see a customer face to face and never worked out a ball.

I think what he is trying to say is that they should apply the Walmart effect to drilling a ball: charge less for the drill and fitting, but make up the price difference in volume. That way, you slightly undersell your competition, and make up the loss from that underselling by drilling more. The lower cost will bring in the demand (customers).

BL.

suhoney24

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2013, 06:59:24 PM »
There is much more to drilling a ball than 4 holes and glue.  Read the expectations of the people in this thread.  A business can't survive taking in $35 an hour.  If the pro shop charges $35 to drill a ball and they have a line out the door they should raise prices.     

Everyone wants Saks service and Walmart prices.  If you expect premium services you should expect to pay premium prices. 

When I drilled online balls we charged more than that and I never had to see a customer face to face and never worked out a ball.
i would rather charge $50 and see 15 people a day then charge $85 and see 2 and have everyone know you are gonna pay out the butt for something so simple...

you drill the ball and then insert the finger tips and then it is good to go down the lane correct? or am i missing some big secret? like i said you will never be able to justify me spending out the anus for something so trivial

itsallaboutme

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2013, 07:16:04 PM »
Read the thread and see what expectations are for a good pro shop.  You can't provide those services for $35.  It just doesn't work.  To discuss what a customer wants, measure a hand, weigh the ball, lay it out, drill, work out, re-weigh, and cash somebody out your looking at  an hour, longer it you go watch them bowl.  If your business only brings in $35 for doing all that, you're gonna eat Ramen Noodles every night. 

The guys on tour pay $35 plus $5 per oval and $5 per slug.  No layouts, no finish work.  Holes in the ball, off the press, back in the box.  Done.

You expect prices cheaper than that and the knowledge of the shop to lay it out and work it out for you.  Then you probably pay with a credit card to ice the cake.

Gizmo823

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2013, 07:22:55 PM »
Well and I get that, BUT, why would we charge so much for something if it's just a few holes and some glue?  Probably the single biggest factor is whether the owner operates the shop, or has an employee do it.  An employee basically takes all the profit.  If one guy just has one shop that he runs, he's just paying himself.  My boss has 6 shops, and obviously he can't run them all himself.  The employees are a major operational cost.  That's what's hard for us to take, that customer mindset of "if I don't understand it, it must not be right."  It's like questioning your doctor, or mechanic, or hvac tech when you're not in any of those fields, have any experience in them, or really know what it's about.  If the customer doesn't get why something is the way it is, then all the sudden we don't know what we're doing and we're idiots.  It feels like a teenager mentality.  They feel like they get it and they know everything, so if they don't agree with their parent on something, or don't understand why they have a curfew, or can't do this or that, then the parent is the one that's wrong.  It's like you think that we haven't considered all these simple things.  We are in the business, and pro shops specifically are just really in business to stay open, because very few of them actually do better than breaking even. 

I can't begin to describe the ridiculous amount of time I've spent reading and listening and learning for the last 8 solid years, and I've still got a long way to go.  If it was just putting some holes in the ball and a little bit of glue, you could train a monkey to do that.  Read this: http://www.bowl.com/uploadedFiles/Equip_and_Specs/Equip_and_Specs_Home/08ballmotionstudy.pdf  It's USBC's ball motion study.  We have to know, understand, and interpret all that, because it all factors into how your ball reacts and how we should drill it.  And that's just understanding ball motion, tip of the iceberg.  Our drill press is admittedly top of the line, but it cost 15,000 at the time.  I have no idea what bits are now, but last time I knew they were about 35-40 bucks apiece.  We have 45 of them.  It costs about 8 or 9 bucks to sharpen each bit.  Then we have finishing tools, such as rasps, bevel knives, electric disc sanders, etc.  Aside from that we have other big things like the ball spinner and the haus resurfacing machine.  Not to mention just the sheer amount of time, that's really where it's at.  Not much different than going to a mechanic, the parts usually don't cost that much, it's the labor that costs.  Just because you get things cheaper doesn't mean that's the standard, you could just be getting a good deal on price.  But we also don't sell balls anywhere near retail.  The most expensive ball we sell is the Byte at 185. 

The whole volume idea doesn't work either.  Even if we sold it for 160 . . it's still 160 bucks.  A lot of money is a lot of money period, and people aren't spending it on bowling.  Now I'm not trying to be a jackass and shove stuff in your face, because I've been on the other side, and I even wince myself when I go to put holes in something for me, because it's STILL pretty expensive.  I'm simply explaining that there's a reason for it. 

There is much more to drilling a ball than 4 holes and glue.  Read the expectations of the people in this thread.  A business can't survive taking in $35 an hour.  If the pro shop charges $35 to drill a ball and they have a line out the door they should raise prices.     

Everyone wants Saks service and Walmart prices.  If you expect premium services you should expect to pay premium prices. 

When I drilled online balls we charged more than that and I never had to see a customer face to face and never worked out a ball.
i would rather charge $50 and see 15 people a day then charge $85 and see 2 and have everyone know you are gonna pay out the butt for something so simple...

you drill the ball and then insert the finger tips and then it is good to go down the lane correct? or am i missing some big secret? like i said you will never be able to justify me spending out the anus for something so trivial
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

itsallaboutme

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2013, 07:23:38 PM »
And I've been in about 20% of the pro shops in the country.  I can safely count on one hand, with a couple fingers left over, the number of shops that drill anywhere near 15 balls a day.  And that was when there were a LOT more balls being sold then there are now.


suhoney24

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2013, 08:32:15 PM »
Read the thread and see what expectations are for a good pro shop.  You can't provide those services for $35.  It just doesn't work.  To discuss what a customer wants, measure a hand, weigh the ball, lay it out, drill, work out, re-weigh, and cash somebody out your looking at  an hour, longer it you go watch them bowl.  If your business only brings in $35 for doing all that, you're gonna eat Ramen Noodles every night. 

The guys on tour pay $35 plus $5 per oval and $5 per slug.  No layouts, no finish work.  Holes in the ball, off the press, back in the box.  Done.

You expect prices cheaper than that and the knowledge of the shop to lay it out and work it out for you.  Then you probably pay with a credit card to ice the cake.
are you kidding me? knowledge for what? all i have to do is tell my guy what i wanna see and his does a lay out that fits that area...10 seconds and he does it...or i go off my old lay-outs that work for me...not brain surgery...

all told i have less then $40 in my ball being lane ready...and to be honest if i had to pay these prices you claim are fair i think i would just quit...it's why i don't support the guy that does it in my house...he wants 65 just to touch it...
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 08:35:11 PM by suhoney24 »

BobOhio

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2013, 08:38:50 PM »
This will get the pot boiling........
BobOhio
GO BUCKS

bullred

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2013, 10:06:24 PM »
To stay competitive, That is, sell balls.  The Pro Shop operator has to massage the egos of the bowlers.   Tell the no bodies that they are great and will be greater with his latest reccomendations and the latest ball.    Same with the "higher" average bowlers.  Stroke the ego and they will buy anything.  The object of the Proshop is not to help the bowler, it's to make money.  Otherwise you wouldn't be there   It's a lovely idea that the proshop operator is there to just help the poor bowler.  He generally could care less after you've bought the ball and walked out the door.   There is no way a proshop operator can help a bowler who sprays a ball all over the lane.  His only hope is to give them a reasonably good fit and hope like hell they bowl reasonably with it

itsallaboutme

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2013, 10:19:24 PM »
suhoney, I'm going to guess Applebees is you're idea of fine dining, and they have chefs there that are cooking your food.

suhoney24

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2013, 11:02:21 PM »
suhoney, I'm going to guess Applebees is you're idea of fine dining, and they have chefs there that are cooking your food.
and im going to guess you are just a blowhard..so i will break this down for you again...how hard is this...i walk into my pro shop, tell them i would like something for good back end, they measure me, they drill me, they add finger tips, i hit the lanes...40 mins and done...what part of this are you claiming deserves to be a hundred dollar process? what part of this are you claiming takes some otherworldly skill?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 11:40:31 PM by suhoney24 »

scotts33

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Re: What do you really want from your pro shop operator?
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2013, 11:26:28 PM »
If every ball you own is laid out the same and the pro shop operator can drill every ball with the same fit I doubt you need much from the PSO.  Other than three holes with correct pitches.

Sorry, I am not in that category I want my PAP figured in with different layouts and possible x holes to give me different ball motions.  My PSO has a DeTerminator and I know what my dual angle layouts (drilling angle) are with symmetrical; balls and their resulting PSA's.  This is way beyond.... three holes where do you want 'em?   ;)

Seems to me I read recently that some BR users get all their equipment laid out same and then I can understand their issue with higher PSO pricing.  You may also get wacky ball motion with every ball laid out the same but you got what you paid for.   :)
Scott