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Author Topic: What few people understand about hook and carry  (Read 9006 times)

avabob

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What few people understand about hook and carry
« on: June 29, 2012, 09:19:29 PM »
Another post about the most hookiing ball promoted me to finally make this post that I have been considering for a long time. 

People understand that it is necessary to minimize deflection on pocket hits to maximize carry.  What they don't understand is that additional entry angle in and of itself does not reduce deflection, it merely changes the angle of deflection.  The best example of this is the pocket 7-10 which was rare 40 years ago before bone dry back ends and high friction shells became the norm.  The 7-10 is a result of a ball that has good entry angle but lacks rotational energy ( rolls out )   

  In order for a ball to actually deflect less, it must still be releasing rotational energy as it enters the pocket, regardless of how much entry angle is achieved.  A high rev release with low axis rotation, that still has rotational energy will deflect less and carry better than a ball with stronger entry angle but little or no rotational energy remaining.

Why is this an important concept?   Because if people really understood it, nobody would care what the biggest hooking ball was anymore.  Rather they would care about what core and shell matchup would allow their roll pattern to release rotational energy at the proper place for any given amount of oil.  Heavier longer oil is best attacked by stronger end over end roll and a straighter trajectory.   

 

ccrider

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2012, 09:54:01 PM »
End over end means less axis rotation which mean for a weaker ball, less hook.  So the strength of the ball matters because you can roll a stronger ball more end over end on heavier patters and still create the entry angle necessary to carry. My hypothesis. What do I haver wrong?

CC

HWooldridge

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2012, 09:59:01 PM »
Interesting post.  I'm still a rank beginner but have noticed while experimenting on the lanes that my plastic spare ball can have a perfect pocket hit with high entry angle but leave weird pins, like the 7-8 or 8-10.  On the other hand, my Freeze either strikes or leaves a 10; I rarely get splits or unmakeable spares if I do my part.

avabob

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2012, 10:06:41 PM »
More axis rotation does not mean more revs, it just describes the angle of the axis to the lane.   A heavy handed player can achieve as many revs with a 20 degree axis rotation as a 45 degree axis rotation, the ball just hooks less.  Pete Weber generally is considered to have the most axis rotation of any pro, but does not have the highest rev rate.  Sean Rash has an extremely high rev rate, but does not have a particularly high axis rotation.  However he still has enough axis rotation to hook the ball a lot.   

The greater the axis rotation, the greater the hook ( all other things being equal ), and hence the entry angle.  As the ball moves down the lane it loses axis rotation, partly due to hook, and partly due to friction.  A ball that has lost all axis rotation deflects more at a 6 degree entry angle than a ball that still has some axis rotation even if the entry angle is only 3 degrees.

The misconception about hook and rev rate goes back to the days when friction was hard to find.  With the old balls a high rev rate did no good unless you found friction. There was  a very direct relationship between hook and rev rate with the old balls on wood lanes.  Hence hook could be thought of as a measure of rev rate.  Today, there is so much friction that even an old low rev guy like me can hook the ball a lot with enough side roll ( axis rotation ).  The problem is that exess friction makes my low rev release burn out as it crosses too many boards.  By lowering my axis rotation I can play more direct with the same rev rate, and the ball will store more energy for the back end without hooking as much ( assuming I have adequate ball speed )
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 10:14:06 PM by avabob »

kidlost2000

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2012, 10:44:00 PM »
To simplify it even more, people want more area. They want to miss their mark by as much as possible either direction and still get to the pocket with a chance to carry.

They see many pros with lots of revs destroy the pocket and pins fly everywhere and attribute that to big hook. Thus if their 200 rev rate self has the biggest hooking ball they will then have an even great area to miss and still get to the pocket with a chance to carry. Most bowl on THS and tend to struggle on many occasions trying to fight the lanes to throw their hook monster instead of playing the shot.

As PB3 mentioned in an article, most bowlers on a THS can get to the pocket with 3-5 different bowling balls no problem, it is a matter of playing the right ball and line to carry.

Todays bowlers attribute hook to carry, and also to having maximum area to spray and prey on the lanes. You can also attribute many trying to throw the ball two handed as another fad of that thought process.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

avabob

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2012, 10:54:42 PM »
Good points kidlost.  Speaking of 2 handers, I find it amusing that the Belmonte, the most proficient 2 handers, is great at adjusting his axis rotation to the condition, yet all the wannabes just use it to hook the lane more.    I don't know if anyone else remembers, but when he won using a plastic ball a couple of years ago, he lost his reaction at one point and ultimately squared up more with less hook to regain his carry. 

kidlost2000

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2012, 11:11:20 PM »
Good point. He was suppose to revolutionize the game. They showed interviews of PDW talking about what effect it will have and its the new wave of bowling. It isn't new. It is what people to weak to throw with no thumb one handed do. Local bowler here has every bit the speed and revs of Belmo and does it one handed with no thumb. There will be more fads to come....
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

avabob

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2012, 11:19:08 PM »
The reason it won't revolutionize the game, is that it is simply too difficult and physically demanding for very many people to become proficient at it. 

Guys have been hooking the ball a lot for 60 years, but it has always been the Carters, Webers Anthonys and WRWs who win all the money throwing it straighter.  Only for the briefest period during the 80's was the game dominated by power players hooking the lane, and it took a unique combination of urethane balls and extremely short oil patterns for that style to dominate.   

Weaser

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2012, 11:30:10 PM »
For many years I thought I needed the latest and greatest hook monster. Since then I have had a revelation that energy retention and maximizing carry are far more important than the number of boards crossed. More hook does not always mean higher scores. Matching the correct ball reaction to the lane condition should be the priority. My 2 cents.

avabob

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2012, 11:13:44 AM »
There was a time when the strongest hitting ball hooked the most.  However, the introduction of high friction balls 20 years ago really changed that.  Prior to that, balls went through a longer transition from skid to rollout as they cleared the heads.  The resin ball has so much surface friction that it transitions quiickly from skid to rollout unless you have good ball speed.  However good ball speed and too much side roll ( axis rotation ) causes too much of a skid snap reaction that is hard to control as the lanes transition. It can work well on house shots where you can control where your ball comes out of the oil, but puts you in jail on flatter patterns, and forces you to play angles that are not optimum for carry.

ccrider

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2012, 11:34:05 AM »
Understood. But what about us average or slow rollers with average revs and axis rotation. More hook allows us to play more end over end with stronger roll to the pocket on sport shots with longer oil.

avabob

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2012, 01:18:21 PM »
On longer oil it is more important to get the ball into a roll, than it is to hook the ball a lot.  It really depends on what you mean by average axis rotation.  This gets into whether you are speed dominant or rev dominant.  Slower ball speeds usually imply rev dominant.  Even on longer oil, higher ball speeds ( 17+ in the heads ) are usually necessary to keep the ball from rolling out.  Again hitting power is derived from the ball releasing energy on the back end, not from the amount of hook.  Hook is really more of a by product.  Said another way, it is not how much the direction has changed ( hook ) but how much energy is still being released to create change of direction.

I am a low rev player with low axis rotation.  This does not prevent me from moving deeper inside as the lanes break down.  What it does do is make me  use a shallower launch angle ( less head belly ).  If I change my hand position to increase axis rotation and get more hook but I lose too much rotational energy as the hook increases, and my carry percentage usually decreases.  The only way to increase the carry is to increase my rev rate which I cannot easily do.   

Pinbuster

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2012, 01:58:45 PM »
To me it is all about matching up and getting the right angle for carry. And for me generally that is not a ball that would be considered a big hooking ball.

I tend to be more rev dominate so I'm looking for something to smooth out the backends.

The best ball I thing I ever had for that was a Columbia Red Pulse that I shined up to a high gloss. The ball didn't hook a ton but it was very controlable and it carried great.

The ball wasn't that popular around here because it didn't hook as much as many thought it should, but the touring pro's loved it.

Getting the ball to hook at the correct spot on the lane is much more important that total amount of hook.

stopncrank

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2012, 02:54:55 PM »
Gotta say +1 to you Avabob...can't tell you how many folks I see just in league trying to use way to much ball on what is basically a med volume THS at best, and all the while complain about their ball not hooking.

My favorite ball in my bag right now is the Solaris Blackout, lower diff symmetric core with a weaker cover, reminds alot of the Red Pulse Pinbuster mentioned, it gives me all the hook I need, and the advantage of the weaker cover is that my moves are smaller and less for three games in league, and it keeps me in the pocket the majority of the time.
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avabob

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Re: What few people understand about hook and carry
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2012, 06:50:35 PM »
I have found that lower rev strokers like myself, and rev dominant players in general struggle to carry on house shots because they get forced to play too much out angle. 

Much of the idea that I have tried to articulate in this thread came from experimenting with urethane on wet dry house shots.  I found that I could play down the boards outside ten with the urethane and carry much better with the straighter delivery than I could by sending one of my reactives out to the break point with much more hook and entry angle.