win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: YOU MAKE THE CALL!  (Read 7242 times)

J_w73

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2540
YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« on: April 01, 2016, 12:50:32 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIv_0Xbv9Vk

I would like to see how everyone interprets the USBC rule book on this one.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 12:52:22 PM by J_w73 »
375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT

 

SVstar34

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2016, 01:04:50 PM »
Can you reference the rule you're getting at.

 In my mind it should be a gutter. He took his normal approach to bowl on the correct lane, threw his ball, and it ended up going on the lane next to him.

Belgarion

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2016, 01:05:12 PM »
Ball left hand with intention to bowl on correct lane...ball crossed foul line after release...shot counts

J_w73

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2540
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2016, 01:36:20 PM »
Can you reference the rule you're getting at.

 In my mind it should be a gutter. He took his normal approach to bowl on the correct lane, threw his ball, and it ended up going on the lane next to him.


4a. Legal Delivery
A delivery is made when the ball leaves the player’s possession and crosses the foul line into playing territory. Every delivery counts unless a dead ball is declared. (See Rule 8.)

Rule 8 – Dead Ball
When a dead ball is called, the delivery does not count and the correct pins must be respotted. The player is allowed to rebowl that delivery.

A ball shall be declared dead if any of the following occur:

d. A player bowls on the wrong lane or out of turn, or one player from each team on the pair of lanes
bowls on the wrong lane. (See Rule 9.)


The rule book does not define playing territory and does not state anything about intent. Regardless of the intent, the ball only made contact with and was "bowled" on the wrong lane.  Just my opinion on how I see it based on the actual wording in the rulebook. 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 01:49:55 PM by J_w73 »
375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT

J_w73

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2540
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2016, 02:16:07 PM »
FYI.. this is the USBC response

"According to USBC Rule 4a, a legal delivery is made when the ball leaves the player’s possession and crosses the foul line into playing territory.

The definition of playing territory is any territory on the other side of the foul line.

Consequently, a legal delivery was made and the individual would receive zero for pin fall for that delivery of the ball"

The definition for playing territory is not in the current rulebook but they looked it up in the USBC past history files.

Further clarification about the subject of "intent" :

So is the intention to bowl on the correct lane part of how this is interpreted?

"Yes, if a player delivers the ball on one lane and the ball lands on another lane beyond foul line, it is considered a gutter ball, delivered on correct lane."


375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT

drew999

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2016, 03:20:41 PM »
Happened to me one time, it is indeed scored a 0.

charlest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24523
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2016, 04:29:35 PM »
While, without that video, I've consider the playing territory to be the lane a bowler in on, seeing that delivery, I'd have to say it was a legal delivery: he threw the ball over the foul line, no matter the cause for the ball going onto the other lane. No one interfered with him. It has to be considered a delivery with zero pins knocked down.

Based on that flow of thought, I'd say a "playing territory" was any area passed the foul line from one side of the house to the other.

Remember, if you're on an end pair, and you fall or walk to the right against the wall AND if you touch the wall past the foul line, it is technically a foul. The foul line is not just at the edge of the lane; it extends, technically, from one side of the house to the other and up each wall at either end.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

J_w73

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2540
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2016, 05:16:01 PM »
While, without that video, I've consider the playing territory to be the lane a bowler in on, seeing that delivery, I'd have to say it was a legal delivery: he threw the ball over the foul line, no matter the cause for the ball going onto the other lane. No one interfered with him. It has to be considered a delivery with zero pins knocked down.

Based on that flow of thought, I'd say a "playing territory" was any area passed the foul line from one side of the house to the other.

Remember, if you're on an end pair, and you fall or walk to the right against the wall AND if you touch the wall past the foul line, it is technically a foul. The foul line is not just at the edge of the lane; it extends, technically, from one side of the house to the other and up each wall at either end.

Agreed.  But the rule book doesn't say anything about intent.   If the bowler stands in front of the wrong lane and throws the ball down the lane, it doesn't count and he gets to rebowl.  He doesn't just get a zero in that case.

The rule book does define the foul line and says that it extends left and right and up the walls, etc.  It doesn't define "playing territory". And then also has a specific rule that says if you bowl on the wrong lane it is a dead ball.  The ball ended up being bowled down the wrong lane, regardless of the intent.

Should it be a zero?  Probably.  But the USBC needs to write the rules in the rulebook how they are supposed to be interpreted.  Their excuse is that they can't put every little thing in the rule book because it will get too cumbersome. I get it, but it would just take a couple of sentences or better wording to clarify a lot of their rules.  With everything being digital and search functions, it wouldn't be too hard to include and find rules pertaining to an issue even if the rule book was gigantic.  Don't put words that leave it ambiguous.  They seem to do this with many of their rules.  When you email them they will give a reply of what they actually meant the rule to be.  They just need to put that in the rulebook then.
375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT

Juggernaut

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6498
  • Former good bowler, now 3 games a week house hack.
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2016, 09:43:13 PM »
 For me, it all hinges on the approach.

 The approach was made on the correct lane, and in the proper sequence, as were all his previous deliveries in this game, which resulted in the ball ending up on the lane directly in front of him Couple that with the "playing area" being ANYWHERE past the foul line, and you have evidence that the bowlers effort was to deliver the ball on the proper lane, and that the balls path was incidental to it having been delivered improperly.

 Nowhere in this have I used the term "intent", as the intent can only be inferred and not proven.  It is a fact that a "legal" approach, and delivery, were made on the proper lane, but what the bowlers "intent" was can only be guessed at. What you have is evidence as to what the bowler had previously done, and you can use that as precedent evidence.
Learn to laugh, and love, and smile, cause we’re only here for a little while.

eg bagger

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 27
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2016, 12:29:21 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIv_0Xbv9Vk

I would like to see how everyone interprets the USBC rule book on this one.

If I didn't personally know this guy I might feel differently but honestly I wonder if he wasn't trying to shave 10 pins off his average, oh wait this was league not an ABT event... maybe it was legit then (MAYBE)

ICDeadMoney

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2016, 12:15:45 PM »
I looked at the poll and realized 86% of the people are wrong.

And the other 13%, well they are wrong too.

It's zero for that ball, not zero for the frame.

I guess anyone who didn't answer it was correct.

avabob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2778
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2016, 12:17:39 PM »
I think intent is implied in the rule even if the word is not there.  If the bowler is clearly attempting to bowl on the correct lane the delivery does not meet any category for being declared a dead ball.

Nice catch IC.  The ball does count as a legal delivery but scored the same as a gutter ball.   
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 12:21:58 PM by avabob »

charlest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24523
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2016, 12:33:43 PM »
I looked at the poll and realized 86% of the people are wrong.

And the other 13%, well they are wrong too.

It's zero for that ball, not zero for the frame.

I guess anyone who didn't answer it was correct.

OK, so he didn't phrase the question correctly. Why not just say that? Shessh!
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

kidlost2000

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5789
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2016, 12:47:50 PM »
I looked at the poll and realized 86% of the people are wrong.

And the other 13%, well they are wrong too.

It's zero for that ball, not zero for the frame.

I guess anyone who didn't answer it was correct.


Zero for the frame would be correct. It was the 12th frame,  not the 10th,  not the 11th.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

kidlost2000

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5789
Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL!
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2016, 12:50:48 PM »
For the original post I agree with the USBC. It could also happen if trying to loft the gutter and you don't clear it and ball goes down the wrong lane.

…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.