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Author Topic: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list  (Read 51161 times)

LyalC52

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Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« on: March 15, 2016, 02:20:42 PM »
USBC's FB page is reporting the Jackal and Carnage have been removed from the approved equipment list. I've been trying to get onto Bowl.com to read the article, but their site is down.

Anyone know why?
Beyond Revs Pro Shop -- Staffer
West Valley and Riverton, Utah

 

MI 2 AZ

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #76 on: March 16, 2016, 12:12:16 AM »
You can drive up 5mph over the posted speed limit in generally most any location without it being illegal. Unless you happen to be in serious red neck ville. At that point your 35% safer staying indoors

I got pulled over for doing 36 in a 35 mph zone.

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noslouch

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #77 on: March 16, 2016, 12:14:30 AM »
  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

So maybe USBC should do the same for all ball companies and actually spot check high Diff. balls. Since Storm and BIG B equipment are the strongest hooking balls on the market until they also get pulled.
Can't hang with the speed limit just walk. Not jay walk. Get busted worse for that than speeding. Red neck put you in jail for that. No video allowed to exonerate you in a court of law. Law man rules the court there.

noslouch

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #78 on: March 16, 2016, 12:35:34 AM »
 Should of asked for the calibration sticker and model # of speed measuring device. If he said he followed you and not mentioned he observed you by a calibrated device you can fight that ticket. Since patrol cars do not have calibrated speedometers. My truck when driving at any limit is under by 2-4 mph. If I'm driving speedo says 40, actual speed is less.


Ken De Beasto

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #79 on: March 16, 2016, 12:43:58 AM »
Should of asked for the calibration sticker and model # of speed measuring device. If he said he followed you and not mentioned he observed you by a calibrated device you can fight that ticket. Since patrol cars do not have calibrated speedometers. My truck when driving at any limit is under by 2-4 mph. If I'm driving speedo says 40, actual speed is less.

Why would mi 2 az have to do all that step when according to you he is legally allowed to past the speed LIMIT by a few mph

MI 2 AZ

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #80 on: March 16, 2016, 12:44:20 AM »
Speed trap.  They had a bunch of police cars and someone with a radar gun pointed down the road.
When I got up to them, they pulled me over to a parking lot full of other vehicles they had stopped.
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mm7759

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #81 on: March 16, 2016, 12:50:37 AM »
Being a Motiv fan, it was disappointing to hear this, though I am not affected by this.   I sure hope this was purely a manufacturing error, and not an intentional attempt at trying to sneak by the rules.  I think the way this was handled is a black eye on the USBC, almost as much as Motiv.  Seems to me USBC could have at minimum worked with Motiv, giving them a heads up this was coming, so Motiv could have their response strategy in place ready to go and immediately ready to provide options for the owners of the affected balls, instead of having to wait a week or so.  That along with giving owners a little grace period.  As several have mentioned, some may already be in Reno for Nationals, with their gear and now could be left high and dry with maybe even left with nothing to use....and now waiting till next week to get their replacements.  A guy on the team we bowled tonight, learned this on his way in, so didn't have the option to bring something else.  Overall he was pretty upset with Motiv, and says he does not want a replacement Motiv...so I am sure their will be a fair share of this opinion as well.  And lastly, it seems to me that, it would be a better idea to completely shut down the Jackal name from the lineup, and not create a replacement adjusted Jackal.....just to get that brand name issue out of the spotlight and people's minds.    Oh well, just sad to see this come up and put a scar on the sport that is struggling to grow. 

noslouch

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #82 on: March 16, 2016, 01:15:09 AM »
MI 2 AZ it was a lack of discretion on po po's part. Even on a down grade. It's an illegal speed trap. Just show photos of area, position where radar gun location was behind trees, bushes and brush. Photo of partially hidden posted sign. Police departments are responsible for having to report downed signs visible or even partial to municipal departments for repair and removal of impeding drivers line of sight. In my area po po hide their bikes directly behind light poles while using radar. U can't see them until you've already gone by. Speed Trap.

WOWZERS

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #83 on: March 16, 2016, 03:54:04 AM »
The lack of people wanting to enforce the rules and regulations is absolutely disgusting. I work in the financial field and we all know how well that turned out for investors in 2008. So, now that I am a Risk Manager at one firm and we have put into place specific controls that have cost the firm significant time and resources (profit) to make the bank up to date and meet or exceed all expectations, I am not supposed to look at competitors and if I or my company finds a competitor is NOT doing something right, I should look away? HECK NO. This is why the USA is where we are today....let's just look the other way instead of standing up and doing what's right.

And as for going over the speed limit....it is 100% illegal. Just because you do not get pulled over or it is possible the calibration of a device may be off a tick or 2 does not give you the right to arbitrarily set a new speed limit. I would love to hear you argue that in a court of law. Tell a judge, ya know, I know murder is illegal, but my wife called me XYZ, so because of that I am moving the goalposts and deciding it is ok for me to murder my wife based on this regardless of what the law says. Come on.

As for those who want the ball legal, I have thought this and possibly already written this, but if all the balls submitted to the USBC were legal, and yet in the public realm the ball is now illegal, something smells in Denmark. Bad. That tells me balls that were shipped to the USBC were under the .060 spec but balls shipped for public consumption were not. With that said, someone had to know WHICH balls to send to the USBC for testing. My guess is the USBC is probably ticked over that, thinking a company was trying to pull the wool over the USBC's eyes, more than the fact that yeah, the ball is slightly illegal. If your job at the USBC was to test balls to determine if the ball meets regulations, and you had tested every ball out of the Jackal line multiple times and every one came in with a diff under .060 and yet now, every ball you are getting from the public is over .060...something is amiss. Further, if you allow Motiv to keep drilled Jackals and Carnages in play, what message does that send to every other company? That says, hey, they got caught, but they were able to get a ball in public hands that exceeded regulations. We need to do that. There is little backlash from the USBC and if the USBC allows us to keep all balls out there, good to go.

Plus, you are forgetting something. Sure, if you want to grandfather a ball great. But you are only speaking for those that are in use/drilled right now. Problem is there are probably many sitting in a pro shop undrilled...possibly at a home undrilled if the person bought it off the internet...so how are we to police when the ball was drilled to be able to grandfather that one, but not the Jackals sitting at Ace Mitchell? That is the problem with allowing some in the market and not others from the same model. You have to be consistent and the USBC would have a nightmare on their hands trying to track who had a Jackal/Carnage drilled prior to March 15.

Finally, Motiv should absolutley pay for the new ball to be drilled. As a customer, the customer did nothing wrong. ZERO. And yet the customer is going to have to pay to have another ball drilled because Motiv wanted to push the envelope too close or whatever the issue is? No way, Motiv needs to reimburse drilling fees. I have already sent Motiv a message and clearly stated that if the company did not reimburse me for drilling on my 2 new balls that I receive to replace my Jackal and my Carnage, I would dump the rest of my Motiv equipment (including bags, shirts, etc) and would never touch a Motiv product again. I should not be penalized in ANY way because of the mistake Motiv made.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 03:56:39 AM by WOWZERS »

Gene J Kanak

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #84 on: March 16, 2016, 06:04:14 AM »
I know that there are those who are going to bash USBC at every turn no matter what, but even I am having a hard time stomaching people blaming USBC in this. People constantly question what USBC does to serve the sport. Well, here, it was made aware of a compliance issue (no proof yet as to how they learned of it), they investigated, they found cause, and they took immediate action by pulling the illegal balls from play since they don't meet specs, and now we have people saying that's the wrong move? Man, now I've heard it all!

WOWZERS

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #85 on: March 16, 2016, 06:15:06 AM »
bash em when they do nothing, bash em when they finally do something by the rule book. Moral of the story....USBC can never do something right.

Bottom line....it is only the wrong move when the move does not benefit the person(s). If I had 5 Jackals I would be pissed right now, and yeah, Motiv can say, well USBC originally passed the Jackals, somehow something happened but we would have continued to product the Jackal but USBC made us stop. Who looks like the bad guy?

Let's be clear...I do not see Motiv saying anything publicly other than replacement balls will be provided and nowhere did I see anyone from Motiv bash the ruling. The bashing is coming from bowlers/PSOs etc.

itsallaboutme

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #86 on: March 16, 2016, 06:32:28 AM »
When a ball is submitted for a approval 4 balls are sent to USBC for initial testing, two 14's and two 15's.  If the ball comes close to the limit on any of the tests performed then eight more balls of that weight are submitted for additional testing.  So the original balls tested either were not close enough to require additional samples to be tested or at least a dozen balls were tested and passed for the ball to be originally approved.

So it's not like two balls squeak through a test and it gets an approval letter. 

WOWZERS

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #87 on: March 16, 2016, 06:39:34 AM »
Correct....which screams to me Motiv sent balls they knew would pass initial inspection....and then produced balls that did not.

I guess there could be another theory. Its....you would know this answer better....how many folks test new bowling balls at the USBC to ensure the ball meets regulations? if one/very limited, I guess one theory could be that a USBC employee went rogue and knowingly allowed the balls to pass...even though the ball truly didn't pass.

Are the balls that are tested kept by the USBC somewhere to retest in the future, especially in a situation like this? I would love to have the USBC revisit those initial tests  and review them and make that information available.

12XSECH

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #88 on: March 16, 2016, 07:02:20 AM »
The usbc (who does little of anything) should now check every MFG balls...Like I said...this sounds like a hit job.

WOWZERS

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #89 on: March 16, 2016, 07:08:08 AM »
It was a hit job. But.... produce balls within the specified regulations, nothing to worry about.

Are you, or anyone, willing to pay the USBC more money to conduct more testing on every ball out in production for "field tests"? The money required to purchase product, pay people to test the product, compile the results, etc will cost a pretty penny. Considering now the USBC requires companies to send samples of the ball to the USBC, I am pretty sure the USBC does not pay for any of the balls currently.

Who is going to foot that?

itsallaboutme

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #90 on: March 16, 2016, 07:17:48 AM »
The original four test balls are not returned.  I do not know if they are kept by USBC or not.  The eight additional samples are returned.

Last I knew testing was done by one person.  If he went rogue it would be one of the biggest shocks of my life.  I worked with him for a few years so I know him pretty well.  I would have to guess before they go through the process of removing a ball from the approved list the balls are tested multiple times by multiple people or witnesses.  I've been involved in one way or another for over 30 years and this is the first I remember of an approved ball being pulled, so I'm sure it was not a decision taken lightly.

There is a fee for each ball submitted for approval.  I don't remember what it is off the top of my head.  It's listed in the equipment specifications of the USBC rule book.